About a server merge...

[harry-pancreas]

i was wrong then, but you changed a bit you're statement. Lag was an example of many, we all know MMO's have issues that you won't find in a stand alone game (looking at you, server maintenance and other stuff)

that's funny.

last 3 times I had lag:
The day House K moved in slow motion
during Mabar in EE Von2 the Dragon instance opened and broke the Ooze encounter
Last time I ran EN Devils assault and Baktor went teleport crazy (mass invs fixed this)

I run on a bare bones setup other than the rare event I don't get much lag at all.

I do solo a lot in heroic levels. I have found it much faster to get the most out of my time to wait for no one through most of the levels.My preferred play style is static. I run static with friends and guildies when our schedules permit. Having done Multiple TRs in 3 man static groups we learn to complement each other and are very effective at getting quest done quickly and moving on. I also PUG and I have no problems filling my groups. As I have stated in a previous post I generally put up an LFM then buff and most times I get at least 1 player to join by the time I am done buffing. We start the quest updating the LFM to IP. By the time we are finished the group is almost always full. If I'm doing a chain people come and go the group rarely has an open spot for long.

I am against changes that force grouping or hinder soloing.

forcing players to need a group to enter quests will not improve the game at all.

[TFPAQ]

I've read some good posts and thoughts in this thread.

In many respects, solo is quicker, easier, and time effective. I hate "wasting" time waiting for groups to form, etc.

Most of my grouping these days isn't PUG, but guild-based (mostly raids) because they are planned in advance and don't "waste" time standing around, etc.

I don't think that the lack of "pugable" groups and listings is really reflective of the state of the game; it is just that most players group within their guild and so you don't have nearly the number of quests "open" like there used to be.

My fix: add a 25% XP boost to any group of two or more. That amount of XP would offset the waiting around, taking longer to complete, etc. I'd be fine with scaling it up to 40% with 4+ members.

Given the vast differences in levels and play styles (completionists, etc) - the grouping of the good 'ol days doesn't exist anymore for the vast majority of players.

[Failedlegend]

I'm all for an XP boost for grouping as the main reason for elitists not grouping is claiming pugging = lose 10% xp but 40% for a full group is overkill I'd say +4% per member in group...so 2 people +4%, 3 +8%, 4 +12%,5 +16%, 6 +20%...raids function slightly different with the xp increasing for for every 2nd person that joins

[Deadlock]

I'm all for an XP boost for grouping as the main reason for elitists not grouping is claiming pugging = lose 10% xp but 40% for a full group is overkill I'd say +4% per member in group...so 2 people +4%, 3 +8%, 4 +12%,5 +16%, 6 +20%...raids function slightly different with the xp increasing for for every 2nd person that joins

Then you just get people multiboxing. No point.

[slarden]

Slarden, the reason why you see so few groups is exactly what you describe. People are not used to work toegether as a group. Those that are tend to form semi-fixed groups that know how to operate as a team. A pug group leader can go only a certain way too. He cann´t kick a member directly. So his options for bringing in line group members are limited, except for desperate measures like reforming outside.Now dungeon scaling kicks in. Groups always loose efficiency a soloist has. Now there is a challenge increase. Most pug groups have 1-2 competent contributors, 1-2 contibutors at best effort and 1-2 members that do not know and are not better than pikers. So nobody groups in pugs, everybody looks for players she or he knows as competent. Pug scene dead.

To my mind, the only possible soution, at the danger of the outcry from all the soloists: Dungeon scaling scaled down. Yes, this means making it harder for the soloist. And yes, this means it is getting dumb easy for big groups. But it is the only solution to make grouping with others than the own team attractive. And for the monkcher zerg soloist specialist that currently complains for DDO to be "too easy" the challenge is up again - and solo is unplayable for everybody else.

With heroic leveling alot of people can solo a dungeon even if it is scaled to 6. It's a completely different issue on heroic levels - speed. It takes way longer to level with a random party than it does solo.

They likely can't get rid of bravery bonus now without alot of complaints, but they really should have just made it a grouping bonus instead. And it doesn't matter what they do because people will work the system in ways Turbine doesn't anticipate.

Personally I think Turbine should avoid social engineering because they aren't very good at it. Just let people play the way they want.

[Nestroy]

With heroic leveling alot of people can solo a dungeon even if it is scaled to 6. It's a completely different issue on heroic levels - speed. It takes way longer to level with a random party than it does solo.

They likely can't get rid of bravery bonus now without alot of complaints, but they really should have just made it a grouping bonus instead. And it doesn't matter what they do because people will work the system in ways Turbine doesn't anticipate.

Personally I think Turbine should avoid social engineering because they aren't very good at it. Just let people play the way they want.

That´s something I could /sign any time. I would not see the bravery streak as a major source of disconnection between soloing and grouping but on a second thought you may be perfectly right.

I think there are several game mechanics that currently and in total discourage group play:

- Bravery Streaks hinder people to go into (any) groups.
- Dungeon Scaling favors the solo zerg.
- Power differences due to past life feats and better banked equipement between first lifers and new players, and the vets.
- Risk of loosing the 10% bonus for quests without deaths actually discourages many players to group.

+ Missing incentives to actively group (like XP group bonuses).
+ Too short running ship buffs - too long buff up times. Buffs are vitaly important for newer players, though, to even out the power difference between them and the vets.
+ The death penalty (loss of bonus) should only apply to the individual player.
+ Too less incentive to actually run the quests instead of flashing and zerging through. Optionals should either bring more XP and completing the quest less, or generally more optionals while doing the quests.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

Well, with the up and comming Elder Scrolls Online game...

Fun apart, I am somewhat of your opinion. But not banning, making it harder for the soloists. That´s enough.

I didn't really mean "ban" them. Just there's so been so many banning threads in the last couple of months that I got carried away.

Maybe it should have been "Squelch the soloists!" Who do they got to talk to anyway?

[Failedlegend]

Then you just get people multiboxing. No point.

Just because a FEW people would do that is not a reason to not add a incentive to group.

Also what wrong with multi-boxing the devs literally built it into the launcher so clearly they approve of that playstyle.

[Kir1]

Decreasing dungeon scaling??? Sorry, " vastly decreasing " ...

No, no and no.

Simple Math here.... party of 6 instead of 1. Boss has lets say 300k HP rather than 210k HP. ..... that's 50k per person, rather than 210k for one person. How is scaling even an issue?! Even if you had 2 PROFESSIONAL PIKERS who can't DPS AT ALL... that's 4 DPS... Hence 75k HP to remove from boss per person, instead of 210k.

So either way, scaling is already a joke in comparison to how much more easier it gets by adding people.

You forgot to mention that 1) it is usualy twice more hp then just 300k->210k hp. 2) boss also hits much less dmg when you solo 3) a lot players in PUG do bad dps, looking at those clerics with 1 kill and no healing done (what are they doing whole quest since they are actualy moving with group and not piking at entrance?).

[Kir1]

The problem with your argument is that it won't be more difficult for soloists with full scaling on elite difficulty. Solo'd when I felt like it then, and solo when I feel like it now.

Cutting off a paying portion of the playerbase is never, ever, a good idea btw...

They should remove scaling on Elite only. I cant stress how much this is important.

Hard and Normal should keep difficulty scaling.


This way you can still get easy solo runs on "hard", but for Elite to solo you actually need to go be good. If you are not good enough for Elite, i repeat there are other difficulty settings for quest, they exist for a reason.

[Nestroy]

You forgot to mention that 1) it is usualy twice more hp then just 300k->210k hp. 2) boss also hits much less dmg when you solo 3) a lot players in PUG do bad dps, looking at those clerics with 1 kill and no healing done (what are they doing whole quest since they are actualy moving with group and not piking at entrance?).

Regarding the non-piking cleric with only a few kills:

I currently have a 3rd life cleric speced for undead slaying. This is a lv. 12 undead killing / healbot machine. Let this cleric run any Necro quest and look at the kill stats afterwards. OK, and now let the same cleric run any flagging quest in menech that is not wiz king. I ran Chains of Flame on elite a few days ago with a guild party. We had a lot of fun in that quest, but with most of my fellow guildies quite self sufficient and DPS monsters I did not have much to do. Blade Barrier is stationary and most other spells do not help much against the mobs in there. Meleeing as a turning-specced cleric? Meh.

I think I had about 5 kills, most out of courtesy, I would guess. OK, my group had been Vet only with three very apt players, me excluded. So these had most of the DPS and kills. I had a quiet day and a lot of XP. And I had been the failsafe fallback cleric in there contributing little, but being a good buff / rez / heal option in case something would have went wrong.

Did I contribute big time? No.
Did I pike? Neither.
Would I have been a waste of a group spot? Objectively said, yes. I had been unneccesary. I would not have been good for a BYOH/zerg group, since I could not contribute big DPS or anything that makes the group faster. I saw myself more of a failsafe though. My BBs stood when the Sorc needed a short break from the mobs. And I tossed the occassional healing spell when needed.
Would I have been able to contribute more? Compared to my fellow guildies, no. Compared to the average pug I perhaps would have carried such a group alone on my back through the quest.
Does this make me a bad ceric / bad player ? This depends on the definition of "bad" - pure DPS contributing output, clerly yes. Working as a team or contributing on more intangible things, perhaps no.

Bottom line - a cleric is not supposed to be the big time DPS killing machine. If a cleric can contribute, fine. If a cleric of apt level can rez and toss the occassional heal, this is a must. I would expect the cleric to have kills near ot at the bottom of the killing list. But!!! But I would expect the cleric to make sure there are no deaths in a group. And to clean up any dead members on the way if necessary. So finding a cleric on the bottom of the kills list? No problem. That said - as long as a cleric is doing a good job at healing / rezing / buffing, the cleric does not need to shine in the DPS department in a big group. DPS in a big group from a cleric is purely optional. If the cleric fails his core duty duty however, the player better deletes the toon and starts anew.

[Deadlock]

They should remove scaling on Elite only. I cant stress how much this is important.

Hard and Normal should keep difficulty scaling.

This way you can still get easy solo runs on "hard", but for Elite to solo you actually need to go be good. If you are not good enough for Elite, i repeat there are other difficulty settings for quest, they exist for a reason.

What exactly do you think would be achieved if this was done?

Do you think this will encourage grouping? Or do you think this will improve the epeen of those of us who can carry a full party of puggers through Elite as it is at the moment?

[Icywave]

You forgot to mention that 1) it is usualy twice more hp then just 300k->210k hp. 2) boss also hits much less dmg when you solo 3) a lot players in PUG do bad dps, looking at those clerics with 1 kill and no healing done (what are they doing whole quest since they are actualy moving with group and not piking at entrance?).

So what if they have twice the HP .. you have 6 times the people!

And if you have pikers, that's another matter entirely. Personally, I have no problem telling them " Stop piking, or you shall never be part of my groups again ". That's it, that's all.

[Icywave]

They should remove scaling on Elite only. I cant stress how much this is important.

Hard and Normal should keep difficulty scaling.


This way you can still get easy solo runs on "hard", but for Elite to solo you actually need to go be good. If you are not good enough for Elite, i repeat there are other difficulty settings for quest, they exist for a reason.

I disagree on having a treatment or game mechanic only for A difficulty level. Also, Elite is about the only " challenge " for some in the game at the moment, so no, lets not remove scaling for it.

[taurean430]

Again, I can only test for "Eye of the Titan", my reference quest for elite diffiulties. Solo this (on a lv. 20 toon with EDs) and do it with a hire and on a group of 4 and a group of 6. And now please check with me - which run had been the hardest (on account of monster resistances, monster hp and damage).

I had the impression that soloing is a walk in the park, running with a hire as usual is a very mixed experience and running with 3 fellow puggers is the worst. With 6 group members the quest is a walk in the park again.

So either - just my feelings - the dungeon scaling on that special quest is rampantly wrong (and elite scales on normal levels) or elite scales into epic levels and give epic resistances to the mobs and bosses with more members inside. Either way, soloing is a breeze and all else (with the exception of full group) is a grind.

Eye of the Titan might not be a fair example, as it does scale into epic levels (21 on elite).

What I am trying to say here really is that those who do choose to solo content will continue to do so despite changing the scaling mechanic to favor grouping. In the example you mention, I had a much easier time runnng it on elite solo. But it wasn't due to scaling. In both runs my level 16 Wizard/2 Rogue had no trouble dealing with the mobs. But grouping cost 90% more sp and some aggrivation due to the behavior of the other players in the group. Finger of death was adequate in both cases on this build, which had no past life Wiz. But other players affecting the mob's aggro with their actions caused missed level drains via Circle of Death/Symbol of Death. The other party members required buffing, or rebuffing if they died. The boss had more HP. Yet the start to finish time (observed by ship buff timer) was 45 seconds more in a group where the HP's were increased. It required 3 additional casts compared to soloing it. Not an excessive gain imo. The additional cost to grouping, and therefore disincentive, in that quest was loss of survival bonus, and mem pot usuage due to inefficiency caused by the actions of party members.

Now, I agree with you that more need be done to encourage grouping. However, giving full scaling on elite for soloists is not something that I believe will accomplish this. It used to be that way, and the same people who could solo it did so then. I have been convinced for some time that what discourages grouping is based largely in the behavior of the members of the group and not the quest mechanics. Going back to Eye of the Titan, going solo saved me some aggrivation, 3 mem pots, and gave me a 10% bonus for not dying.

Encouraging grouping is what is needed I think. Not forcing others to be a burden upon others.

[Deadlock]

I disagree on having a treatment or game mechanic only for A difficulty level. Also, Elite is about the only " challenge " for some in the game at the moment, so no, lets not remove scaling for it.

Scaling reduces the difficulty for anything less than 4 people in the party. Removing scaling means it's treated as a full party regardless of number of people in the group. Like raids.

I'm still not understanding what the OP thinks will be achieved by this.

[TFPAQ]

Instead of any type of penalization for soloers, just put "something" in the mix that rewards grouping.

Given how this game isn't limited by level anymore (really - reincarnations, etc). Give the people an additional 5 - 10% XP for each person in the group. 6 players = 30 - 60% more XP.

Also make ship buffs last for the whole time you are logged in on that toon. That way, everyone buffs upon log-in and away we go!

Also get rid of the bravery streak as I think it is counterproductive to grouping, and focus the addtional XP into the grouping reworked XP.

[harry-pancreas]

I'm all for an XP boost for grouping as the main reason for elitists not grouping is claiming pugging = lose 10% xp but 40% for a full group is overkill I'd say +4% per member in group...so 2 people +4%, 3 +8%, 4 +12%,5 +16%, 6 +20%...raids function slightly different with the xp increasing for for every 2nd person that joins

raids wouldn't need that, they're still being running in group fairly often, the ones that are being run

and i'd give only +10%, if i'd give anything. If someone dies the bonuses cancel each other. And i'd cancel the bonus if one of the members ends the quest with penalties to xp for being late

[harry-pancreas]

I disagree on having a treatment or game mechanic only for A difficulty level. Also, Elite is about the only " challenge " for some in the game at the moment, so no, lets not remove scaling for it.

huh ? no scaling= more challenge.

elite is about the only challenge for SOME people in the game. Why not make hard challenging for some, elite for everyone ?

[Icywave]

Scaling reduces the difficulty for anything less than 4 people in the party. Removing scaling means it's treated as a full party regardless of number of people in the group. Like raids.

I'm still not understanding what the OP thinks will be achieved by this.

oh ok... a bit the other way around of what I understood. Got it, thanks.

As to what the OP wants, not sure either how it would help.