Evoker

[unbongwah]

I used to apply maximize and empower on call lightning sla and on word of balance sla and on storm of vengeance sla, but I find their cooldown too long for my play style, so I'm now killing faster then before (when I had maximize and empower I used to wait the cooldown of those sla, and this slowed me down).

You do realize that just because you use the SLAs doesn't mean you lose access to the regular spells, yes? They have separate cooldowns too: my druid makes use of all of them; typically I'll use the SLAs to start a fight, then switch to the regular spells while they're on cooldown if I need the extra oomph. Plus IIUC the Shiradi procs are boosted by whatever metas you have applied to your spells / SLAs when you cast them; thus the "free" 225 Spellpower applied to one's SLAs & their Shiradi procs is more than worth it, IMHO.

[Michele]

You do realize that just because you use the SLAs doesn't mean you lose access to the regular spells, yes? They have separate cooldowns too: my druid makes use of all of them; typically I'll use the SLAs to start a fight, then switch to the regular spells while they're on cooldown if I need the extra oomph. Plus IIUC the Shiradi procs are boosted by whatever metas you have applied to your spells / SLAs when you cast them; thus the "free" 225 Spellpower applied to one's SLAs & their Shiradi procs is more than worth it, IMHO.

they are slow. I just finished all the gianthold walkups at epic elite at level 24 and I continue to prefer 400 more spell points over 3 metamaguc feats.
my spell power without metamagic feats is around 300 on all elements.
my main tactic is earthquake + body of the sun + wall of fire without metamagic.
body of the sun can't be empowered, earthquake does almost no damage, and wall of fire would cost too many spell points with metamagic feats.

ice storm damage is pathetic at epic elite even with metamagic feats.

storm of vengeance sla is nice with metamagic, but I would not invest 3 feats only for a 2 minutes cooldown spell.

call lightning and word of balance sla are nice with metamagic, but they have slow cooldowns, and when both cast on an epic elite mob they barely half the health of a SINGLE trash mob by dealing a total of 2500 damage... and by being single target the have low chance to proc shiradi.

I would rather prefer having 1000 more spell points and +3% critical chance by getting epic mental toughness and past life sorcerer active feat and endless faith.

I tested both druid versions, with and without metamagic feats, and I kill a lot more with the version without metamagic feats.

that's my personal experience when soloing epic elite content: remember that you will face bosses with 300k hit points and you need a lot of spell points. against melee bosses you barely have time to cast creeping cold and greater creeping cold while you run to avoid their deadly attacks... in that case, having or not having SLAs makes no difference because it's only a matter of time before the boss fall down with creeping cold spells.
if you are in group you also have only time to cast creeping cold spells on the boss, because the remaining time you will be busy to heal the melee players in your group (do you really think to deal more damage of a melee, or an archer, or a shiradi arcane caster? ).

[Michele]

You do realize that just because you use the SLAs doesn't mean you lose access to the regular spells, yes? They have separate cooldowns too: my druid makes use of all of them; typically I'll use the SLAs to start a fight, then switch to the regular spells while they're on cooldown if I need the extra oomph. Plus IIUC the Shiradi procs are boosted by whatever metas you have applied to your spells / SLAs when you cast them; thus the "free" 225 Spellpower applied to one's SLAs & their Shiradi procs is more than worth it, IMHO.

just to show you some numbers:
call lightning sla will deal about 450 damage instead of 350 damage with empower and maximize every 6 seconds.
word of balance sla will deal about 600 damage instead of 500 damage with empower and maximize every 15 seconds.

creeping cold and storm of vengeance sla with maximize and empower... meh... let's say that metamagic don't change your life with those spells.

so you are wasting hundreds of spell points and 3% spell critical chance, for how much more dps with SLAs? almost nothing.

[Sebastrd]

they are slow. I just finished all the gianthold walkups at epic elite at level 24 and I continue to prefer 400 more spell points over 3 metamaguc feats.
my spell power without metamagic feats is around 300 on all elements.
my main tactic is earthquake + body of the sun + wall of fire without metamagic.
body of the sun can't be empowered, earthquake does almost no damage, and wall of fire would cost too many spell points with metamagic feats.

ice storm damage is pathetic at epic elite even with metamagic feats.

storm of vengeance sla is nice with metamagic, but I would not invest 3 feats only for a 2 minutes cooldown spell.

call lightning and word of balance sla are nice with metamagic, but they have slow cooldowns, and when both cast on an epic elite mob they barely half the health of a SINGLE trash mob by dealing a total of 2500 damage... and by being single target the have low chance to proc shiradi.

I would rather prefer having 1000 more spell points and +3% critical chance by getting epic mental toughness and past life sorcerer active feat and endless faith.

I tested both druid versions, with and without metamagic feats, and I kill a lot more with the version without metamagic feats.

that's my personal experience when soloing epic elite content: remember that you will face bosses with 300k hit points and you need a lot of spell points. against melee bosses you barely have time to cast creeping cold and greater creeping cold while you run to avoid their deadly attacks... in that case, having or not having SLAs makes no difference because it's only a matter of time before the boss fall down with creeping cold spells.
if you are in group you also have only time to cast creeping cold spells on the boss, because the remaining time you will be busy to heal the melee players in your group (do you really think to deal more damage of a melee, or an archer, or a shiradi arcane caster? ).

Nice. I love outside the box thinking like this. I will so be back to this thread when I get around to my druid life.

[thomhas_of_mabar]

just to show you some numbers:
call lightning sla will deal about 450 damage instead of 350 damage with empower and maximize every 6 seconds.
word of balance sla will deal about 600 damage instead of 500 damage with empower and maximize every 15 seconds.

creeping cold and storm of vengeance sla with maximize and empower... meh... let's say that metamagic don't change your life with those spells.

so you are wasting hundreds of spell points and 3% spell critical chance, for how much more dps with SLAs? almost nothing.

I just tr'd into a druid. I'm new to this class. Currently at level 13. Seems everyone is talking about wolf builds.
Glad there are a few posts talking about casters.

Very nice analysis. So empower is a waste. I'm gonna drop it.

I too hate the fact that Druids don't have enough spell points so I took Mental Toughness. So you think the entire chain is worth it.
Good to know.

I don't like the cool down time on the SLAs. Have you tried quicken? Does it have any effect on the SLAs?
What's your view on the Spell Penetration/chain feat?

[SirValentine]

What's your view on the Spell Penetration/chain feat?

There's only a couple of Druid spells that need it, and fairly few mobs with Spell Resistance in a range where having it would matter, as most mobs have none, and some (e.g., Drow) have sky-high.

I might buy the argument if someone said 1 Spell Pen feat was useful, to unlock the ability to twist in 6 more from Magister & Draconic, but even that seem iffy. (I'd consider it a given on a Wizard, but they get all those bonus feats plus have far more spells for which it's relevant.) More than 1 Spell Pen feat really seems too costly in feats for a Druid (or Sorc/Clr/FvS) to me.

[Michele]

I just tr'd into a druid. I'm new to this class. Currently at level 13. Seems everyone is talking about wolf builds.
Glad there are a few posts talking about casters.

Very nice analysis. So empower is a waste. I'm gonna drop it.

I too hate the fact that Druids don't have enough spell points so I took Mental Toughness. So you think the entire chain is worth it.
Good to know.

I don't like the cool down time on the SLAs. Have you tried quicken? Does it have any effect on the SLAs?
What's your view on the Spell Penetration/chain feat?

quicken is a must have. in epic elite they hit hard, and failing a concentration check while casting an heal spell could be deadly.
also I need to cast quickly a sequence of spells that have the same timer of 30 seconds: earhquake + body of the sun + wall of fire + sunburst sla; I would waste a lot of seconds if I don't cast them with quicken feat; I used to cast earthquake without quicken spell, but failing the concentration check could have caused my death.
you can choose efficient quicken from the season's herald tree to make the quicken feat cost only 6 more spell points.
I don't use quicken on the single target spells (greater creeping cold, word of balance, creeping doom, sunbeam) because they are just bonus damage, it's not important if I fail the concentration check while I cast them, and they have a pretty quick casting animation.

Spell penetration is not so important for a druid: it's used for word of balance and mass frog;
I have +3 spell penetration from the season's herald tree, +5 from shiradi epic destiny, +20 from having all 20 druid levels, and +9 from having 3 pl wiz and 3 pl fvs, and I rarely have spell penetration issues.

I'm not a lover of mass frog... a DC of 59 in fortitude in epic elite, I have to switch equipment (nether orb and scepter with +2 transmutation augment slot), too many clicks, 1 minute cooldown, affects up to 5 mobs only, 75 + 6 spell points cost, spell penetration check... mmmhhh... maybe yes, maybe not... maybe it's better +20 fire spell power for my body of the sun and wall of fire.

I'm hitting 3500 spell points in shiradi epic destiny.

[Sokól]

just to show you some numbers:
call lightning sla will deal about 450 damage instead of 350 damage with empower and maximize every 6 seconds.
word of balance sla will deal about 600 damage instead of 500 damage with empower and maximize every 15 seconds.

creeping cold and storm of vengeance sla with maximize and empower... meh... let's say that metamagic don't change your life with those spells.

so you are wasting hundreds of spell points and 3% spell critical chance, for how much more dps with SLAs? almost nothing.

I agree, was just doing a couple of past lives then coming back to druid and took no metas and was surprised how well it worked out, no potting very similar dmg. Biggest surprise though was body of the sun, really love that spell now

[Lanhelin]

Nature's Warrior Enhancements: instinctive fighting x2, bestial nature x3, extra wild empaty x3, athletic x3, flight x3, reaving roar x3, wisdom x2

I have a question regarding Reaving Roar. Why do you take it three times? Because the sonic damage is not increased but applied at a 100% rate when killing an enemy. The increasing chance only affects the insight bonus to threat generation for 10 seconds. I currently play a melee Druid and more than one point into RR seems not worth it.

[Michele]

I have a question regarding Reaving Roar. Why do you take it three times? Because the sonic damage is not increased but applied at a 100% rate when killing an enemy. The increasing chance only affects the insight bonus to threat generation for 10 seconds. I currently play a melee Druid and more than one point into RR seems not worth it.

I use bestial nature for +3 reflex and fortitude, so I never use reaving roar.
I just need to spend 20 action points in nature's warrior tree to have access to +2 wisdom, so I could spend them anywhere in that tree, without changing the build effectiveness.

[Jasparion]

I agree, was just doing a couple of past lives then coming back to druid and took no metas and was surprised how well it worked out, no potting very similar dmg. Biggest surprise though was body of the sun, really love that spell now

Ive had Shiradi procs do nearly 2k damage with Maximise and Empower turned on. I am guessing they will drop down significantly if I go for a build which ignore these 2 feats.

It seems counter to everything we've ever been told... so this thread is VERY interesting to follow !

[Michele]

Ive had Shiradi procs do nearly 2k damage with Maximise and Empower turned on. I am guessing they will drop down significantly if I go for a build which ignore these 2 feats.

It seems counter to everything we've ever been told... so this thread is VERY interesting to follow !

true, on a shiradi critical, where the critical chance on a shiradi build is often determined by the arcane lore of a blue dragonscale armor (you can't be master of critical in all elements).

the only 2 spells I find worth of shiradi are earthquake and body of the sun which proc at every tick:
1) maximizing and empowering earthquake is a waste of spell points because it will deal no more significant damage;
2) body of the sun can't be used with maximize and empower.

all the other spells proc shiradi once for every cast (you don't have archmage magic missile sla that has 5 times the chance to proc shiradi).

yes, you can say: I kite mobs in and out of my wall of fire to proc shiradi...
but you really want them to stay on the ground, still in the midde of an earthquake with your body of the sun.
kiting mobs means being damaged by them and spending lots of spell points to heal you.

I still find maximize and empower too expensive for a druid in epic elite content, where you need tons of spell points due to the huge amount of mobs hit points (especially bosses).

Instead, in epic hard content maximize and empower is useful because mobs have few hit points, so you have enough spell points to finish the quest even with the additional cost of metamagic feats (and you finish the quest faster because you bring down the mobs faster... well... only a few minutes faster :P ).

However you can still replace completionist feat and past life sorcerer active feat for maximize and empower, as I wrote in the build, if you don't have access to completionist feat and you don't care having 145 more spell points.

My problem is that I don't find maximize and empower worth enough to spend 2 feats on a druid: let's see what the new divine epic destiny will bring in the next update, maybe they will introduce a very good new sla to empower with those feats.

energy burst can't be maximized, holy wrath is not handy to manage with a druid, avenging light is nice to use with metamagic but it's only single target and does the same damage of a call lightning without metamagic (so I would not even take it if I run exalted angel epic destiny).

[Sokól]

I was wondering Michele how much Heighten boosts your earthquake dc´s, do mind checking for me?

[Wipey]

9-8=1.
For caster able to cast lvl 9 spells, Heighten would boost lvl 8 spell by 1.
Lvl 1 spell by 8.

[Sebastrd]

true, on a shiradi critical, where the critical chance on a shiradi build is often determined by the arcane lore of a blue dragonscale armor (you can't be master of critical in all elements).

the only 2 spells I find worth of shiradi are earthquake and body of the sun which proc at every tick:
1) maximizing and empowering earthquake is a waste of spell points because it will deal no more significant damage;
2) body of the sun can't be used with maximize and empower.

all the other spells proc shiradi once for every cast (you don't have archmage magic missile sla that has 5 times the chance to proc shiradi).

yes, you can say: I kite mobs in and out of my wall of fire to proc shiradi...
but you really want them to stay on the ground, still in the midde of an earthquake with your body of the sun.
kiting mobs means being damaged by them and spending lots of spell points to heal you.

I still find maximize and empower too expensive for a druid in epic elite content, where you need tons of spell points due to the huge amount of mobs hit points (especially bosses).

Instead, in epic hard content maximize and empower is useful because mobs have few hit points, so you have enough spell points to finish the quest even with the additional cost of metamagic feats (and you finish the quest faster because you bring down the mobs faster... well... only a few minutes faster :P ).

However you can still replace completionist feat and past life sorcerer active feat for maximize and empower, as I wrote in the build, if you don't have access to completionist feat and you don't care having 145 more spell points.

My problem is that I don't find maximize and empower worth enough to spend 2 feats on a druid: let's see what the new divine epic destiny will bring in the next update, maybe they will introduce a very good new sla to empower with those feats.

energy burst can't be maximized, holy wrath is not handy to manage with a druid, avenging light is nice to use with metamagic but it's only single target and does the same damage of a call lightning without metamagic (so I would not even take it if I run exalted angel epic destiny).

I think what he's referring to is that Maximize and Empower will affect your Shiradi procs. While the feats may not be worth it for your fishing spells, they may be worth it for the extra damage on the procs. It's an interesting question.

[Sokól]

I think what he's referring to is that Maximize and Empower will affect your Shiradi procs. While the feats may not be worth it for your fishing spells, they may be worth it for the extra damage on the procs. It's an interesting question.

I have a shiradi sorc and have special meta and unmeta bar for normal spells and imo it is not worth it unless you have endless pot supply and note that druids are really feat starved.

[Sokól]

9-8=1.
For caster able to cast lvl 9 spells, Heighten would boost lvl 8 spell by 1.
Lvl 1 spell by 8.

ty

[Michele]

I think what he's referring to is that Maximize and Empower will affect your Shiradi procs. While the feats may not be worth it for your fishing spells, they may be worth it for the extra damage on the procs. It's an interesting question.

with maximize and empower shiradi procs have +225 spell power, so yes, shiradi procs will benefit a lot from those feats.

but if I go around in epic elite quests with less than 3500 spell points and if I use maximize and empower, I would surely finish my spell points before reaching a shrine or I would not have enough spell points to bring down a boss.

think to shiradi sorcerers: they spam magic missiles without applying maximize and empower on them, otherwise they would burn too many spell points.
the same thing is for a druid.

[Michele]

I have a shiradi sorc and have special meta and unmeta bar for normal spells and imo it is not worth it unless you have endless pot supply and note that druids are really feat starved.

I 100% agree with you.

druids are also spel points starved unless they invest in mental toughness fears, in green steel, they buy a good +250 spell points augment, and maximize wisdom.

[thomhas_of_mabar]

yes, augments stack with spell focus items: it has been implemented recently and I have tested it personally.

as far as mass frog, I still have to decide if it's better than +20 spell power fire (my current main tactic against trash is earthquake + body of the sun + firewall without metamagic; earthquake and body of the sun both proc shiradi on each tic).
I wrote mass frog DC just to show what numbers can reach that spell.

So the (Greater) Spell Focus augments stack with spell focus items. What is a spell focus item?
Are you referring to spell penetration items?

What about the (Greater) Spell Focus feats? Do they stack with the augments or spell penetration items?
I just want to confirm whether or not there are any redundancies.

For end game and EE content, what would you say is the best area to concentrate on (Ice, Fire, Lightning, etc ...)
What weapons do you usually equip at end game?

BTW, even though I'm currently only at level 16, I picked up a +250 spell point augment from yesterday's sale because of your suggestion


Thanks for the feedback.