Let's Talk About Update 21 XP Changes

[Vellrad]

Quadrupling?

Autocompletion.

Anything less will not suffice for teh_whine.

[Teh_Troll]

Autocompletion.

Anything less will not suffice for teh_whine.

My very presence ensures an auto-completion. I just let you in once in a while so you can hjeal meh.

[Teh_Troll]

Quadrupling?

Maybe - EE WGU should drop 200-300k and that's not unreasonable.

[GoldyGopher]

Late to the Party...

Thank you for taking the time to communicate with us, we as a player base appreciate you giving us ample warning and time to discuss this with you. Even though it may not always seem that way it is greatly appreciated.

Hello everyone! We're planning another round of quest XP adjustments for Update 21, and we'd like to get your thoughts.

We've been listening to your feedback, so this time around we're looking specifically at epic quests. The exact details are still somewhat fluid, but I can definitely say we've increased the experience for 17 quests. Those quests are:

• Chains of Flame (Epic only)
• Trial By Fury (Epic only)
• The Druid's Curse (Epic only)
• Thorn and Paw (Epic only)
• Outbreak (Epic only)
• In The Belly of the Beast (Epic only)
• The House of Death Undone (Epic only)
• The Tracker's Trap (both Epic and Heroic)
• What Goes Up (both Epic and Heroic)
• Breaking the Ranks (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Break in the Ice (both Epic and Heroic)
• Lines of Supply (both Epic and Heroic)
• Army of Shadow (both Epic and Heroic)
• Through a Mirror Darkly (both Epic and Heroic)
• The Thrill of the Hunt (both Epic and Heroic)
• Friends in Low Places (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Lesson in Deception (both Epic and Heroic)

We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)

Our goal is to get the XP numbers more in line with how long it takes to actually complete a quest. Some of the adjustments are minor - 6% more base XP for A Lesson in Deception, for example. Many of the changes are quite substantial. Ten of the quests have had their base XP raised by more than 20%. What Goes Up has had its base XP changed by ... Well, let's not ruin the surprise. Let's just say it's a nice, impressive number.

I don't see [insert quest name here] in this list. Does that mean that quest isn't going to be adjusted?

Just because a quest isn't listed here doesn't mean its XP won't be tweaked either up or down in a future release, or even for Update 21. We are definitely planning on more rounds of XP adjustments further on down the road.

For some quests we're just waiting for the right time to make the changes. For example, we'll be adjusting the Heroic XP in Three Barrel Cove when we add Epic mode to that area.

For other quests we're evaluating what the right fix is. Should we adjust the base XP? Change the optional XP? Alter the contents of the quest itself? Or some combination of the three? Given the sheer number of unique quests in DDO, it will be a while before can we give every one the full attention it deserves.


Why is this happening now? Why weren't these XP values changed earlier?

As PurpleFooz explained in the fall, we only recently got the ability to fine-tune XP - Epic XP in particular. We also wanted to give people time to get familiar with the Shadowfell Conspiracy quests before we started changing their XP values.


Don't you think you should change [insert quest here]?

If you have ideas for which specific quests should be adjusted (or not adjusted) and why, this thread is the perfect place to talk about it. Please use this thread to discuss!

Knockback
Senior Content Designer

As one of the original players asking for of Quest XP this is near and dear to my heart.

To me there are several problems with this philosophy of adjusting the base XP for these XP quests.

• XP vs. Comms
• Casual Play vs. Hard Core
• XP vs. Difficulty
• The amount of XP being discussed

Currently players will earn approximately 3200 on their road to 6,600,000; with the XP changes you are suggesting the number of Comms earned will drop by the same percentage as the XP is increased. A net increase of 10% XP that players will typically earn then the number of Comms earned will drop by same percentage 10% requiring players to spend more time running capped to earn Comms.

This not only affects players who are on the hamster wheel in improving characters but creates a greater degree of difficulty for the casual player in their attempt to keep up with the Jones as they will spend longer times earning comms and more time running capped looking for loot, as you make capped farming of loot more of a requirement in that case. I hope I explained that properly

As several posters have indicated their is little difference in the amount of XP earned between Hard and Elite Difficulty, in everyone's favorite quest VON3 there is a 6 percent increase in XP when selecting EE or EH for a quest that takes twice as long to complete, including filling the party. The difference in XP when moving from EN to EH is only 5% but the time it takes to complete the quest only increase marginally. If the XP difference from EN to EH is 5% than EH to EE should be 10%, at least.

If you look at a 6% more XP, well assuming a base XP of 17700, factoring in conquest Ransack, XP Shrine, Bonuses and other factors results in ~2,200 additional XP; to me this is just not a large enough increase. For the quests that you have listed you should be starting at 18% and going up.

Finally changing XP is not IMHO going to encourage players to run a more diverse selection of content, rather it will force players to play fewer quests because XP will become even less important as it is easier to earn. Again I hope that makes sense. Let me try it like this, if I can earn 6,600,00 XP by running ~120 quests. After this change I will earn 6,600,000 by running 104 quests instead of focusing on XP I will be focusing on Comms and which 104 quests (or repeating said quests daily) will earn me the most comms as the amount of comms earned will be more important than the XP.

As for what other quests, anything that has the word Epic, with the exception of VON3 and Chamber of Rayium probably will be on several player's list to get an XP buff.

We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)

Back at launch the Base XP for the Seal of Shan-to-kor series was 14,000 with bonuses those four quests were enough XP to move a character from fresh level 4 to level 5 (That XP based upon play in beta was substantially lowered when you could almost get to level 6).
Who remembers the XP in Prisoner of the Planes, being lowered from a base 7,500 to 5620 and further lowered to 4240. People still run these quests not a day goes by that there aren't dozens of LFMs up for these two quests. People will still run VON3, instead of waiting 5 minutes to see and LFM it may be 6 minutes (assuming it will be lowered back to U19 level). I suppose they could truly nerf the XP down to half of it's current XP. but would that affect the number of players running the quest substantially? Don't get me wrong I would be very disappointed however it a dang easy quest on hard for a sub 15 minute run with a bad pug.

As for not running Shadowfell quests, yes I hope the purple haze get fixed, yes I hope the loot gods fix the loot, but increasing the XP is the first step in making them more attractive to the player base to run; and IMHO it is the smallest step, but it is a step.
However complaining about the length of time to get to these quests, using my "Key to Eveningstar" and the north camp sites I can get in the What Goes up in under 4 minutes, I just don't get. How can you need 6, 7 or even 8 zone changes? And I am the king of complaining about the number of zone/teleports needed in DDO.

[Guanmagi-1]

Thank you, everyone, for your feedback. Keep it up! Just chiming in to say I've now read all of the posts to this point. Much appreciated.

Please disregard posts that request further reduction of quest xp. Thanks!

[FranOhmsford]

no

I'd be all for randomized quests but i'm not looking to go slow through a dungeon i've run a bazillion times because people like you decided a group should do 1 tower at a time i simply won't run it and if they changed all the quests to be like that i simply wouldn't play.

Says someone with a Feb 2006 Join Date!

So are all those people who over the years have harked back on these forums to when DDO was a GROUP Game Lying?


Heck I don't agree with those people at all - I actually enjoy being able to Solo as it's not always possible to group up AND I DON'T want to see DDO become a Game where you HAVE to Group up to Complete Quests {EXCEPT FOR END-GAME THAT IS!!!!!}.


When You Solo Wiz King you do each Tower in turn ANYWAY!
AND
I have no doubt that YOU can do those 3 Towers in the time it takes ME to do 1-1.5!

BUT You're moaning here about Time Requirements meaning you actually want to group with Other Soloists to make things faster.

WELL My Suggestion doesn't stop you from doing that at all!

It simply makes it a Less Popular OPTION!

[patang01]

Dear Turbine.
I understand why you're changing Von 3 but you're again reacting to the crappy design you put in place and that people are trying to adjust too. Like when Rusted was run until peoples eyes bled. It was not because people love it, it was precisely because you designed a off destiny leveling for fate points hamster wheel. Just as people run specific heroic quests over and over because of the TR grind.

You lowering the XP of VON 3 doesn't change that the off destiny leveling is a terrible horrid design and that off destiny karma leveling is an abomination. It won't either change that the harper quests are boring and the xpack is terrible. You changing the XP in those will help, but it won't change that it slays me to run them over and over for another terrible design, Valor (the amount). I'm currently taking a break because the grind just wears me out. It's my third counting last year. I've never taken that many breaks previously.

Note - I didn't change the way I play and I don't grind the same quest over and over like some does, but the choices are poor, the systems mind numbing and your reaction misses the point. You clubbing VON 3 is like when you clubbed the challenge quest XP and Rusted. It removed an option for people who were reaction to the underlying issues with your systems. And those are now pretty much dead.

This won't change it. I welcome adjustment of XP but it doesn't change the foundation. You'll soon notice when someone finds another quest with great xp/minute and the daily churn of 3 of that quest will light up the LFM all day.

I hope you'll realize this before you're left with only those that love to work for their entertainment and become even more niche. I hate to move on, but I don't pay you to tell me how to like my gaming - I reward you for a great gaming experience. Hands on your heart and given your eroding player base - isn't it time you faced the dragon and changed the real issue with why players do easy XP/minute quests like VON 3 in the first place? Like the fact that it requires an insane 6 mill XP for Karma and that you've created the off destiny leveling system both for fate points and Karma XP?

You fix those and you correct what was always the driving force behind people levitating towards the VON 3s and the Rusted in the DDO world. I don't mind running all type of diverse quests because grinding one or two on a daily basis is boring. But it beats wading against a torrent of sewage that you created.

Thanks for asking for feedback and I hope you consider what I'm writing. Because as of now I have no real reason to keep grinding Epic reincarnations in the current system. And having finished fate points on one toon I do not want to repeat the misery on another. I tried to start on another guy but every time I start off destiny leveling I feel a dry heave come on and I feel sick to my stomach. It's a physical reaction to perhaps the most horrid system you've created. And I bet I'm not the only one that feels like that. You're adjustments are welcome - but it's not a remedy and I don't think it will retain your player base in the long run.

[Livmo]

After reading all the posts and mulling it a bit, I do feel that there are 4 issues perhaps that cause folks to not run the others quests, xp, items, distance to quest, and purple haze.

Upon reflection I don't run the purple haze stuff because its hard on my eye and sometimes seems to get stuck on purple haze mode forever, long after the baddies are gone.

Also those 3 Stormhorn quests on the NE side of the map take forever to get to. To be honest I'm not going to pay or work the shard exchange to get there by short cut. I spend money on the game, but would not spend for that. When I do spend its on storage or adventure pack. I might buy cosmetic armor someday if it was avaialbe and there was lots of variety so I don't like every other toon in FR or Ebberron.

I do more VON3, because that's what others want to do. I don't mind. I like the quest allot. However guildies want to do that 1st each night before anything else. I like that its near the airship portal.

If you increase the XP and items on those quests you will still have problems with distance and the purple haze. I like the quests, the xp is low and the items meh and that doesn't bother me. My discouragment is lack of LFMs or trying to fill one, distance to quest, and purple haze.

[hit_fido]

There is ONE Quest in this game that I'd like to see Nerfed XP Wise - And yes I know I'm gonna get flak for this BUT:

SHADOW CRYPT!!!

Shadow Crypt is easily one of the longest quests in the game when played by new players who are not aware of or do not use the Wiki or old forum posts to repeat "solutions" found by other players. If the intention is to have Turbine judge quest difficulty and XP based on what meta gaming information is available then that's one argument you can make re: Shadow Crypt and several other quests as well. But if the intention is to judge difficulty and XP based on how the quest is designed, there's no reason to lower Shadow Crypt XP.

-And IF Two {or more} Rooms are activated at the Same time APPLY HARRIED DEBUFF!!!


Actually this Last Point should be considered in quests like Wiz King too - Might FINALLY Stop the Solo a Tower Cr@p!!!

Suggestions like this are aimed only at punishing groups who efficiently divide up objectives. Do we punish or reward players who master content and then efficiently coordinate to complete said content after much prior repetition? I say reward, or at least do not punish by artificially damning groups that coordinate and split up objectives.

[mutilador]

Says someone with a Feb 2006 Join Date!

So are all those people who over the years have harked back on these forums to when DDO was a GROUP Game Lying?


Heck I don't agree with those people at all - I actually enjoy being able to Solo as it's not always possible to group up AND I DON'T want to see DDO become a Game where you HAVE to Group up to Complete Quests {EXCEPT FOR END-GAME THAT IS!!!!!}.


When You Solo Wiz King you do each Tower in turn ANYWAY!
AND
I have no doubt that YOU can do those 3 Towers in the time it takes ME to do 1-1.5!

BUT You're moaning here about Time Requirements meaning you actually want to group with Other Soloists to make things faster.

WELL My Suggestion doesn't stop you from doing that at all!

It simply makes it a Less Popular OPTION!

Stop to ask to slow down the quests, crippling, spell wards, dungeon alert are stupid and annoying. If you dont like to zerg just dont group up with ppl that zerg.

Some ppl have ran those quests a million times and have no interest in flower sniffing. Stop to try ruin the game just cos you dont like to zerg.

[Lifespawn]

Says someone with a Feb 2006 Join Date!

So are all those people who over the years have harked back on these forums to when DDO was a GROUP Game Lying?


Heck I don't agree with those people at all - I actually enjoy being able to Solo as it's not always possible to group up AND I DON'T want to see DDO become a Game where you HAVE to Group up to Complete Quests {EXCEPT FOR END-GAME THAT IS!!!!!}.


When You Solo Wiz King you do each Tower in turn ANYWAY!
AND
I have no doubt that YOU can do those 3 Towers in the time it takes ME to do 1-1.5!

BUT You're moaning here about Time Requirements meaning you actually want to group with Other Soloists to make things faster.

WELL My Suggestion doesn't stop you from doing that at all!

It simply makes it a Less Popular OPTION!

No i'm complaining about being forced to run each tower one at a time i don't solo wiz king for xp because it's only worth it to multitower

Believe it or not some people find it fun to run quests and find the most efficient ways to do so i just don't want 1 playstyle to make me have to play a certain way you want to group up and move together go for it but don't force me to do the same unless i can put a timer on how long you can be in a tower or room and you will just die if it takes too long.

[Shorlong]

Dear Turbine.
I understand why you're changing Von 3 but you're again reacting to the crappy design you put in place and that people are trying to adjust too.

I love how everyone is talking like it's something you HAVE to be a part of. If you don't like, why do it? Is it a competition, do you have to be more powerful than everyone else? I'm not making fun, I honestly just don't get it.

[mutilador]

And you guys have nothing better to do? Like fix bugs? Fix the stupid comms drop rate? Even better remove the comms for good so ppl can get loot for end rewards? The game is half broken, the lag is totally out of control, everyday more ppl leave the game than join it and you guys are worried about 1 decent quest? FIX THE GAME!

[Karadon_II]

I'd prefer raising xp of optionals to reward thoroughness rather than zerging to the main objective.

This! In some cases the optionals can be tougher to do then the main quest and/or take almost half the time you're in the dungeon but the rewards are rarely commensurate with the effort. This goes for Epic and Heroic.

[Teh_Troll]

I love how everyone is talking like it's something you HAVE to be a part of. If you don't like, why do it? Is it a competition, do you have to be more powerful than everyone else? I'm not making fun, I honestly just don't get it.

It's the point of playing DDO. The game becomes about making your characters more powerful.

After running through the content, what else is there? Most stuff is cool and awesome and you can geek-out about is . . . THE FIRST TIME YOU RUN THROUGH IT.

But after that? Once the thrill is gone? Pursuit of more power is really all that's left.

[Seikojin]

I see a lot of the below as absolutely true and to the point. However there are some things to bring up.

VoN 3 has been coming. Hopefully it's only a small decrease.

But that's all people want to run to level. More xp in other quests, means hopefully people will be willing to run other stuff too.

My only suggestion would be to raise the xp of both House D Epics (Bargain of Blood, etc.) and Red Fens. Both those areas could use a boost (And loot overhaul, but I'll take an xp boost for now).

I'd prefer raising xp of optionals to reward thoroughness rather than zerging to the main objective.

It would be nice if optionals across the board got a huge boost. Soo many are skipped because they do not garner enough of a gain to go for them. I think all optionals in all quests should offer 50% base or more (given current base exp values). Heroic and epic. I am thinking levels 1-7 should net 500 or more per optional, 8-13 should be 1000 per or more, and 13-20 should be be 2000 per or more. Epics I think should be 50% base or more in a strong way since it would help with karma farming.

On second thought, while I applaud this refinement, I personally don't much care about epic XP. I hit lvl 28 fast enough, and wallow there scrounging for comms.

Sooo, I know it's off topic, but since someone (me) brought comms up, I feel the comm rewards need about a 30-50% increase. Even if that creates a small surplus of comms, that wouldn't be so bad. It would be nice to see a reward list and not think of it as "Things I CAN'T have".

I think all tring should require one basic ingredient and all end rewards as well as chests should have them added to their tables (not in place of a slot, an extra slot where these appear). It would be as prevalent in quest as festivault coins, and in end rewards as guild renown. Then add special loot tot hat slot, fill it with something fluffy for 90% and add useful stuff to the last 10. Like skill tomes, stat tomes, etc, named loot, ingredients, and comms /tr stuff). The amount gained can always be adjusted, however there is A LOT to be said about always providing incremental steps toward the goals of TRing and making better loot.

Do yourself a massive favour here and take some advice.

Please state clearly
(1) what your target range of xp per minute is in coming to these decisions for Heroic and Epic Normal, Hard and Elite? I'm assuming you don't have a single number of xp/min to aim for.
(2) what data do you base your times on?

Without this information, we have no way of coming back to you with any sort of useful feedback on what we consider acceptable/worthwhile/WAI.

Giving exact times or even estimates puts turbine in a bad position; setting them up for liability they do not want to meet. Meaning someone who works for turbine puts the word out that a quests should take X minutes, everyone will make that the baseline standard and anything worse is gimp and anything better is pro. And then, even with one quest mentioned, all quests will be metered against it. Suddenly exp values will be based on that one comment. Instead, if they don't tell the source and the estimates, we as the community make them ourselves, with the soft grounds that it could be anything different.

That said, I am pretty positive they know exactly how long it takes each quest to be ran, they even have a range of time based on good builds and gear, and bad builds and gear. And that data comes from us, not internal.

I hope lowering XP in Von3 won't be a huge amount. Yes, it's quick and easy xp. But, it doesn't hurt to have an easier quest with good xp for leveling karma and/or off destinies. And with the new ransack system most folks never run it more then twice a day and then go run something else. Not saying I didn't see this coming, but hoping it's not going to be nuked from orbit.

Good list of quests to increase, glad to see Chains of Flame on that list. For the time involved both running to and running the quest it really needs a boost.

If the base values of other quests are moderately increased, the hit to von3 would be ignored due to increased runs of other content offering competitive exp/min.

Turbine,

How about instead of dropping the exp on some quests, you raise the exp on a LOT of others to make them more attractive to run. This tiny list of increases, while good, only scratches the surface. Jungle of Khyber isn't run so much simply because it's worth a giant pile of exp, but also because it's a fairly straightforward quest. There's no annoying hoops to jump through, no puzzles, no back and forth running. Just a more or less straight line to the end with a boss fight. It's just a simple standalone quest, worth good exp, that's right next to the Airship.

Look at the other options for level 9 quests: Threnal? Don't make me laugh! Annoying escort missions, failure states, out of the way in an explorer area, and worth relatively poor exp. The same goes for Redfens: Quests in an explorer area with gimmicks. The underwater mechanics of Into the Deep and Fathom the Depths are poor. The Last Stand has a failure state and is basically standing around waiting for enemies to arrive. The Claw of Vulkoor can be zerged with invis(kinda), but it's still more of a gimmick than the straight zerg run of Jungle of Khyber, and is worth less exp.

The only other quest at level 9 that competes with Jungle is the Shadow Crypt, but even THAT has to done using a workaround to repeat it, and most people require a wiki guide to complete in reasonable time.

The problem is far more complex than simply how much time it takes to complete a quest. Even the time it takes to complete is more complex when you take into account the travel to actually reach the quest entrance.

Turbine, you need to take a step back and really try to understand why people run the quests they do. It's NOT simply a matter of how much exp a quest is worth. Fiddling around with exp values needs to be done in a more comprehensive manner, with much better understanding of how and why players run each quest(or don't run it, in some cases).

Actually people are inherently lazy after tring. So what happens is they stop worrying about enjoying a quest and quickly work on zerging lives until they hit completionist or some build mecca that they designed a week ago. So the whole reason X quest is farmed is simply because it is easy exp. Lowering those while raising other quests values is exactly how they fix that lazy button. When they adjusted exp this last time, massive lfms appeared for the content touched. And the same will be true for 21.

However, I do think everything needs a longer look. I know from experience that you can indeed one time most heroic content to cap without much rerunning. I know that isn't the case for epic yet. One day it will be there (when every heroic quest has an epic version for sure).

The adjustments now are to make each life one where you don't have to repeat much, and can enjoy the quests you want to enjoy. So I think this change is super positive for the most part.

As for specific quests, there are too many I feel need boosting. I would love a flat formula; where quest level, duration, and difficulty made a flat base exp. However, there are too few categories for duration, and not enough detail in what makes a quest challenging or not, so that flat system would be pretty impossible to implement. From a development and player standpoint.

I do think some quests that are difficult have low numbers. And they do get skipped because of that. I also think boosting optionals significantly would help to get past that low base exp and keep the better rewarding quests ran at the same pace. I think quests need more optionals as well.

[FranOhmsford]

Stop to ask to slow down the quests, crippling, spell wards, dungeon alert are stupid and annoying. If you dont like to zerg just dont group up with ppl that do.

Some ppl have ran those quests a million times and have no interest in flower sniffing. Stop to try ruin the game just cos you dont like to zerg.

Zerg is an ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT in TWO Quests that I know of in this Game: Offering of Blood and Prey on the Hunter!

Where I ask is Flower-Sniffing an ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT?

Shouldn't there be Quests for Everyone?


Hey I get it - I understand that when you're under Time Restraints you want to be Able to move fast.
BUT
3 Hella Pro/Tribe Zerg Veterans each doing a Tower take How Long to complete Wiz King exactly?
3 Hella Pro/Tribe Zerg Veterans doing each Tower Together take How Long to complete Wiz King?

IF The second is less than 3 times the Duration of the first then I refer you back to my Previous Posts:

Where I stated that Optional XP should be Boosted so as to Make Running the Quest ONCE with Full Optionals etc. MORE XP than Running it twice as Fast as Possible!


Heck I'd be surprised if 3-6 players like yourself couldn't run Wiz King as a Group with ALL Opts, Ransack, Conquest and Ingenious in Less than 25 Minutes!

Just because you can currently do it in 10 by Splitting Up doesn't mean that's a GOOD thing for the Game!


P.S. The meaning of "Zerg" seems to be Fluid and has changed Plenty in the 3.5 years I've been playing DDO {My FIRST and ONLY MMO!} - Just like the Meaning of BYOH changes depending on who you ask.

The meaning of Flower Sniffing however is Quite obvious and ALWAYS Quite Plainly FALSE and DEROGATORY!


I'd have No issues with Zerging/Zergers if they weren't so obviously also Elitists!

Zerg/BYOH/Solo a Tower and all that it represents is the Issue.
NOT
I want to run this quest as fast as I/We Can!


Last Night I put up a couple of LFMs on Cannith I honestly thought would NEVER Fill!

1) GH Fast Slayers {Major Pot in use} - First person joined as I started on Fist {asked him to run Eye}, Group was Full by the time I got to Heart - 10 Minutes to Fill!

2) Orchard Slayers - Full Clearance NOT Resetting Instance - One person joined while I was still on Airship, Cleared Fleahmakers to GoP, Thru Tunnel and down to Vol and Group was FULL!
20 mins to Fill!


Also BEFORE I ran these Slayers on Pots I did a GH Cabal, PoP, Madstone, Tor run Elite BB - And two very famous Cannithites Joined - One Proceeded to run to the top of PoP and Solo Half of the Rooms while I and another Player did Fire and Air Rooms.
The Other who having entered PoP as we completed Proceeded to Massacre Madstone before leaving Group Happy!
The First then Massacred Tor while I tried in Vain to Simply keep up!

Heck I didn't mind - I was in a rush myself as it's getting closer and closer to the twelfth and the Cut-Off Point for FREE Epic Hearts BUT Did those two people actually make those quests easier for myself or the other guy?

NOPE!

I was forced to go to my Bow in Fire {On a Tempest!} as the Other Guy insisted on doing the Lever {My Hireling - That would have done the lever - died of course within 5 seconds of Fight Starting.

In Air I put the Hire on the Lever again and me and the other guy did it {Myself still using the Bow of the Elements {AIR!}} BUT would that have been easier with the WF Wizard in there with us - HECK YEAH!!!

In Madstone - WF Wizard DIDN'T INVIS THE GIANTS!
Me and the Other guy were left on 1st Crystal - A Tempest using a Bow to keep aggro off Giant and a Melee Monk - NO AoEs or CC!
Second Crystal was done BEFORE FIRST!!

Tor - Lol - Was Finished Fast and Easy BUT is Frankly ALWAYS Finished Fast and Easy!


I've got the greatest Respect for those two guys for their ability to Play this game and would gladly run with either of them again.
I'm also happy to run with the Monk again despite his/her cowardice in PoP!
And Yes I died Myself in Tor - Was left Fighting a Multitude of Giant Casters!

BUT

Did my LFM say Zerg, Byoh, Be Self Sufficient or ANYTHING of that Ilk?

HELL NO!

Do my LFMs EVER Say anything of that Ilk?

ONCE on Molineux - His FvS Life - Lords of Dust - I put Elite BB BYOH {Euurgh I feel Dirty!} because I KNEW He wasn't Heal Capable and Didn't want to give people any illusions about the fact that he was a MELEE Build!
Group was Full in NO TIME!

Would I put BYOH on an LFM in Future?

NOPE!

Molineux will be Off his FvS life soon enough {already at 20 and just waiting for a Heart} and Every One of my other Divine Toons IS and WILL ALWAYS BE Group Heal Capable!

[Livmo]

It's the point of playing DDO. The game becomes about making your characters more powerful.

After running through the content, what else is there? Most stuff is cool and awesome and you can geek-out about is . . . THE FIRST TIME YOU RUN THROUGH IT.

But after that? Once the thrill is gone? Pursuit of more power is really all that's left.

This is a good definition of DDO's end game. Once I've exploered everything all I do now is focus on getting more powerful. DDO has an end game and Teh_Troll succinctly defined it.

[mutilador]

Zerg is an ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT in TWO Quests that I know of in this Game: Offering of Blood and Prey on the Hunter!

Where I ask is Flower-Sniffing an ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT?

Shouldn't there be Quests for Everyone?


Hey I get it - I understand that when you're under Time Restraints you want to be Able to move fast.
BUT
3 Hella Pro/Tribe Zerg Veterans each doing a Tower take How Long to complete Wiz King exactly?
3 Hella Pro/Tribe Zerg Veterans doing each Tower Together take How Long to complete Wiz King?

IF The second is less than 3 times the Duration of the first then I refer you back to my Previous Posts:

Where I stated that Optional XP should be Boosted so as to Make Running the Quest ONCE with Full Optionals etc. MORE XP than Running it twice as Fast as Possible!


Heck I'd be surprised if 3-6 players like yourself couldn't run Wiz King as a Group with ALL Opts, Ransack, Conquest and Ingenious in Less than 25 Minutes!

Just because you can currently do it in 10 by Splitting Up doesn't mean that's a GOOD thing for the Game!


P.S. The meaning of "Zerg" seems to be Fluid and has changed Plenty in the 3.5 years I've been playing DDO {My FIRST and ONLY MMO!} - Just like the Meaning of BYOH changes depending on who you ask.

The meaning of Flower Sniffing however is Quite obvious and ALWAYS Quite Plainly FALSE and DEROGATORY!


I'd have No issues with Zerging/Zergers if they weren't so obviously also Elitists!

Zerg/BYOH/Solo a Tower and all that it represents is the Issue.
NOT
I want to run this quest as fast as I/We Can!


Last Night I put up a couple of LFMs on Cannith I honestly thought would NEVER Fill!

1) GH Fast Slayers {Major Pot in use} - First person joined as I started on Fist {asked him to run Eye}, Group was Full by the time I got to Heart - 10 Minutes to Fill!

2) Orchard Slayers - Full Clearance NOT Resetting Instance - One person joined while I was still on Airship, Cleared Fleahmakers to GoP, Thru Tunnel and down to Vol and Group was FULL!
20 mins to Fill!


Also BEFORE I ran these Slayers on Pots I did a GH Cabal, PoP, Madstone, Tor run Elite BB - And two very famous Cannithites Joined - One Proceeded to run to the top of PoP and Solo Half of the Rooms while I and another Player did Fire and Air Rooms.
The Other who having entered PoP as we completed Proceeded to Massacre Madstone before leaving Group Happy!
The First then Massacred Tor while I tried in Vain to Simply keep up!

Heck I didn't mind - I was in a rush myself as it's getting closer and closer to the twelfth and the Cut-Off Point for FREE Epic Hearts BUT Did those two people actually make those quests easier for myself or the other guy?

NOPE!

I was forced to go to my Bow in Fire {On a Tempest!} as the Other Guy insisted on doing the Lever {My Hireling - That would have done the lever - died of course within 5 seconds of Fight Starting.

In Air I put the Hire on the Lever again and me and the other guy did it {Myself still using the Bow of the Elements {AIR!}} BUT would that have been easier with the WF Wizard in there with us - HECK YEAH!!!

In Madstone - WF Wizard DIDN'T INVIS THE GIANTS!
Me and the Other guy were left on 1st Crystal - A Tempest using a Bow to keep aggro off Giant and a Melee Monk - NO AoEs or CC!
Second Crystal was done BEFORE FIRST!!

Tor - Lol - Was Finished Fast and Easy BUT is Frankly ALWAYS Finished Fast and Easy!


I've got the greatest Respect for those two guys for their ability to Play this game and would gladly run with either of them again.
I'm also happy to run with the Monk again despite his/her cowardice in PoP!
And Yes I died Myself in Tor - Was left Fighting a Multitude of Giant Casters!

BUT

Did my LFM say Zerg, Byoh, Be Self Sufficient or ANYTHING of that Ilk?

HELL NO!

Do my LFMs EVER Say anything of that Ilk?

ONCE on Molineux - His FvS Life - Lords of Dust - I put Elite BB BYOH {Euurgh I feel Dirty!} because I KNEW He wasn't Heal Capable and Didn't want to give people any illusions about the fact that he was a MELEE Build!
Group was Full in NO TIME!

Would I put BYOH on an LFM in Future?

NOPE!

Molineux will be Off his FvS life soon enough {already at 20 and just waiting for a Heart} and Every One of my other Divine Toons IS and WILL ALWAYS BE Group Heal Capable!

I dont zerg all the time and i do all opts often.

But my problem with your post its cos you are asking for harried and it's annoying.

The most stupid things introduced in this game were crippling for EVERY SINGLE MOB in epic quests and instant red alert in quests like we have in shadowfail.

Turbine needs to understand that its a game and if you keep doing stuff that annoy the players they will just leave.

Im not asking for an auto-completion mob but slow down us is annoying not everybody play the easy mod builds.

Why we all get punished with those stupid mechanics?

Edit: BTW do you know what kill grouping? Its the pointless dungeon scalling.

[Thordarr]

I just listened to DDOCast where Cordovan said on the subject of XP changes "You do some quests for XP and some are just for fun".

Hold for Re-enforcements has aweful XP and didn't get any love on the last pass. I can only assume it is working as intended and this is one of those quests you do for fun.

That's right, Cordovan defends Coyle for fun!