Let's Talk About Update 21 XP Changes

[shadowowl]

here are some suggestions.
have XP scale based on people in group since dungeon difficulty scales why not xp? this would encourage more pugs even if many players have no problem solo/duo a boost in xp will give incentive to invite players that perhaps can't solo/duo those same quests allowing for a more social environment.
increase the xp jump from normal-hard-elite in epic quests there is a HUGE difference in difficulty from doing say a Von 3 epic normal to doing a Von 3 Epic Elite yet the xp difference is minimal after first time/streak bonus.

And perhaps the xp scale could not be effected by hires so it has to be a real player in group in order to increase the xp doesn't even have to be much say 1% extra of base per each player after 1 so 6 players = 5% bonus for full party. It's really not a game breaker should give it some thought

[Deadlock]

Our goal is to get the XP numbers more in line with how long it takes to actually complete a quest.

Do yourself a massive favour here and take some advice.

Please state clearly
(1) what your target range of xp per minute is in coming to these decisions for Heroic and Epic Normal, Hard and Elite? I'm assuming you don't have a single number of xp/min to aim for.
(2) what data do you base your times on?

Without this information, we have no way of coming back to you with any sort of useful feedback on what we consider acceptable/worthwhile/WAI.

[LOOON375]

FYI Harper Pins work these days. I find them quite useful. They were fixed... sometime before now.

That pin has saved my arse more times than I can count lately, especially during lol VON3 runs. cha ching

[Braegan]

I hope lowering XP in Von3 won't be a huge amount. Yes, it's quick and easy xp. But, it doesn't hurt to have an easier quest with good xp for leveling karma and/or off destinies. And with the new ransack system most folks never run it more then twice a day and then go run something else. Not saying I didn't see this coming, but hoping it's not going to be nuked from orbit.

Good list of quests to increase, glad to see Chains of Flame on that list. For the time involved both running to and running the quest it really needs a boost.

[rest]

On second thought, while I applaud this refinement, I personally don't much care about epic XP. I hit lvl 28 fast enough, and wallow there scrounging for comms.

Sooo, I know it's off topic, but since someone (me) brought comms up, I feel the comm rewards need about a 30-50% increase. Even if that creates a small surplus of comms, that wouldn't be so bad. It would be nice to see a reward list and not think of it as "Things I CAN'T have".

End rewards are EXACTLY that: things I can't have. Stupid Comms.

FYI Harper Pins work these days. I find them quite useful. They were fixed... sometime before now.

Well the pin is still not enough incentive to run that awful content. Good to know that the one guy who has one will get some use out of it. Someday.

[Livmo]

FYI Harper Pins work these days. I find them quite useful. They were fixed... sometime before now.

I threw mine away some time back. I probably should have checked it before chucking it.

[Erik_Loki]

DON'T TOUCH VON 3... The risk is lose many players.... adjust what you want but not Jungle of Khyber...

[slarden]

Von 3 isn't the best xp/min in the game, it's just a quest you can safely let PUGs join without much risk. Another blow to the casuals on top of the ETR system.

I would really like to see a featured quest/chain of the month that has xp increased substantially. This will help newer and casual players learn it since there will be many lfms for it.

Anyhow, thank you for increasing the base xp for those quests. U15 and U19 are part of my rotation and I will net more xp from this change than I will lose for sure. Maybe I'll run what goes up more although I hate any quest where I have to ddoor in the end fight area to use a shrine near the beginning. The placement of shrines and sp usage do not line up. The purple haze is annoying especially if you are running from the shrine back to the end fight area.

[Certon]

Comments in red.

Hello everyone! We're planning another round of quest XP adjustments for Update 21, and we'd like to get your thoughts.

We've been listening to your feedback, so this time around we're looking specifically at epic quests. The exact details are still somewhat fluid, but I can definitely say we've increased the experience for 17 quests. Those quests are:

• Chains of Flame (Epic only)
• Trial By Fury (Epic only)
• The Druid's Curse (Epic only)
• Thorn and Paw (Epic only)
• Outbreak (Epic only)
• In The Belly of the Beast (Epic only)
• The House of Death Undone (Epic only)
These needed a big boost. Semi-fun quests but terrible xp/min, especially Chains of Flame. Also, you might consider making In the Belly of the Beast easier to find.

• The Tracker's Trap (both Epic and Heroic)
• What Goes Up (both Epic and Heroic)
• Breaking the Ranks (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Break in the Ice (both Epic and Heroic)
• Lines of Supply (both Epic and Heroic)
• Army of Shadow (both Epic and Heroic)
• Through a Mirror Darkly (both Epic and Heroic)
• The Thrill of the Hunt (both Epic and Heroic)
• Friends in Low Places (both Epic and Heroic)
• A Lesson in Deception (both Epic and Heroic)
What can I say? An XP increase of 100% wouldn't cut it. These quests are remote, OR they have Shaddar-Kai chain swinging maniacs, and these mobs are completely un-fun. Reduce the damage of the chains on all levels, have a maximum of two spawn in any single encounter, or make the chains unstackable (a la blade barrier.)

We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)
Saw this coming a mile away. It was fun while it lasted.

[Woebringer]

Helen Keller could see that eVon3, especially on Normal, was giving an inordinate experience for the level of effort. You don't have to be Nostradamus or some sort of MMO Elitist to see that an adjustment was coming.

Truth be told an adjustment is most likely very warranted for the overall "big picture" health of the game. 7k+ per named and 60-80k+ end reward XP for a quick normal run? Really?!?



A Polite Request: Let's equip the Scalpel and not the Chainsaw when it comes to making adjustments. This has been an area of great concern for long time players.
If the Pendulum swings too far the quest will just be "scrapped" and/or be one of those "one and done" flagging quests. That would be a shame as someone put the time in on the design and implementation side.
Before the recent XP Update the quest was run for positive gains and *gasp* for Fun. Perhaps a Rollback rather than a wheel-reinvention...

Thanks.

[DagazUlf]

Dag... you knew this was coming. You even said so yourself

I know, but it's just really seeming like there's a Turbine conspiracy to kill anything fun.

[Jasparion]

Hello everyone! We're planning another round of quest XP adjustments for Update 21, and we'd like to get your thoughts.

We've been listening to your feedback, so this time around we're looking specifically at epic quests. The exact details are still somewhat fluid, but I can definitely say we've increased the experience for 17 quests. Those quests are:
• The House of Death Undone (Epic only)

We’re also planning to reduce the XP for one quest (on Epic only):

• Jungle of Khyber (Epic only)

Not sure why House of Death Undone got buffed. I thought it was a reasonable amount. But I guess some people choose to run all of the options which take a while.

For VON 3 I think it is sensible, because it is a broken amount of XP, but only if you are able to increase XP from other dungeons at that level. The buffs to XP you are providing are for higher level dungeons so taking away VON 3 means we struggle in the level 20 to 23 range.

I would suggest coming out right now and saying that the next round of buffs will be slight increases to VON 1, 2, and 4, plus the Sentinels series, Lords of Dust series (I know you guys dont like making the free stuff too popular - but you should). Plus look at the other Eberron dungeons. Again, this means making old content more viable. But new players will still buy old packs if the content is good, the gear is good, and the XP is good.

My other suggestion would be that you consider future changes to Optional XP. If you want people to enjoy all of the dungeons which you go through a massive amount of work designing, dont just buff the end reward which encourages people to stealth through and go for dungeon ransack.

Buff the optionals. Buff the rewards / drops in optional chests. Encourage the full exploration of dungeons. Then we get to decide whether to zerg or whether to explore. Both options should provide solid XP / min.

A perfect example is Tear of Dhakaan. You can zerg for big, fast end XP, or you can do all of the optionals for a bundle of XP. This dungeon is brilliant because the solo guy can zerg, and large groups can split and each take a different path and can meet up at the end fight.

I will repeat this because some zerger will jump on this post attacking me for daring to threaten their playing style. I am not threatening your playing style. Im saying different playing styles should be rewarded equally. You can zerg for your XP. Someone else can do a full explore for their XP. Both should be totally viable options.

[Leclaire1]

Nice job all around, and these are all positive changes in my estimation. Thanks!

As to other quests which need adjustment, I'll repreat what many of us have already said- Hold for Reinforcements.

This is the absolutely, fundamentally worst xp return for the serious effort it takes to complete in all of ddo. I suspect its so bad because its only one area and the old formulas were hooked to the surface area of a dungeon, but it takes 15 minutes of intense action. You should fix this because it will make more people willing to run this otherwise excellent pack, and might boost its sales. People don't just complain about Coyle because he is an idiot- they complain about him because he is a complete idiot who is really difficulty to defend and the lack of any reward (855xp on elite!- Can we think of a crappier return on investment!!!!) for protecting him feels like we're getting screwed. We'd be more willing to take on the unpleasant duty if there were significant rewards commensurate with the achievement.

[stricq]

I'd prefer raising xp of optionals to reward thoroughness rather than zerging to the main objective.

Yes, please.

[Jasparion]

Spanner-in-the-works time.

Boosting the XP means we get less Comms on our way to 28. I hope you take this in to account when you finally get around to dropping the requirement from 4,200.

Thanks.

I now have 3.3m XP and about 680 Comms. I have hardly repeated anything. Ive only done VON 3 a couple of times. I did EE VON 5 which gave 200k XP for nothing, but that is still only a small part of my total XP.

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but feel that Comms need to be considered as much as anything else, when you are making fundamental changes to the game.

[xTethx]

If the boost is anything like spies in the house got than this is going to be awesome. I applaud this all around.

[Tuffgar]

Turbine,

How about instead of dropping the exp on some quests, you raise the exp on a LOT of others to make them more attractive to run. This tiny list of increases, while good, only scratches the surface. Jungle of Khyber isn't run so much simply because it's worth a giant pile of exp, but also because it's a fairly straightforward quest. There's no annoying hoops to jump through, no puzzles, no back and forth running. Just a more or less straight line to the end with a boss fight. It's just a simple standalone quest, worth good exp, that's right next to the Airship.

Look at the other options for level 9 quests: Threnal? Don't make me laugh! Annoying escort missions, failure states, out of the way in an explorer area, and worth relatively poor exp. The same goes for Redfens: Quests in an explorer area with gimmicks. The underwater mechanics of Into the Deep and Fathom the Depths are poor. The Last Stand has a failure state and is basically standing around waiting for enemies to arrive. The Claw of Vulkoor can be zerged with invis(kinda), but it's still more of a gimmick than the straight zerg run of Jungle of Khyber, and is worth less exp.

The only other quest at level 9 that competes with Jungle is the Shadow Crypt, but even THAT has to done using a workaround to repeat it, and most people require a wiki guide to complete in reasonable time.

The problem is far more complex than simply how much time it takes to complete a quest. Even the time it takes to complete is more complex when you take into account the travel to actually reach the quest entrance.

Turbine, you need to take a step back and really try to understand why people run the quests they do. It's NOT simply a matter of how much exp a quest is worth. Fiddling around with exp values needs to be done in a more comprehensive manner, with much better understanding of how and why players run each quest(or don't run it, in some cases).

[SilkofDrasnia]

Unless you increase the XP in these by a factor of one million, I'll never willingly set foot in them. Maybe not even then. I grudgingly do the prison for PDK favour. I think these quests are bad quests, and I don't enjoy running them.

Farming Karma sucks already. Lowering the XP in Von 3 is going to make it suck even more. It's VERY obvious that you're all disappointed that more people don't run Shadowfail content (there's a reason it has that nickname) and you're trying your damndest to get people out there. I'm not sure more XP is gonna do it. I only run the prison junk on HE for favour purposes when I don't feel like going through the other stuff on EE. And also skipping the yawnfest challenges that give PDK favour.

Since Harper favour is utterly useless (Harper Pin never worked for me so I don't even bother anymore) I don't need to do it.

GL getting people to run awful content though. You're gonna need it.

Pretty much in agreement with this, these quests suck and I really don't want to run them.

Thank you for doing this.

I like the Shadowfell content, but there was not much motivation to run it after the first tour due to items and xp. Although I like to run the quests it seems hard to fill an LFM for them.

On the other hand filling a VON3 is quick and easy. Always a full boat.

Hopefully there will be more Shadowfell LFMs and less VON3s.

However it might upset some people if you reduce the VON3 xp. I won't be offended tho. The new content is more fun than running VON3 oodles of times (because its what folks want to do allott).

For the critics out there that may feel pressured to buy Shadowfell due to the proposed changes. I got it on Cyber Monday for $14.99 for my alt. That deal may or may not come around again. Please lobby for guest passes so I can get some for my guildies. Thanks.

I think those of us that dislike these quest will not like them any better because they get a xp increase, I sure as hell wont be putting up a lfm for them even with these changes. As for the price of the pack shadowfail deserves its name and even 15$ is too much for it.

What really annoys me is the people that moan and groan on the forums think getting stuff nerfed will "force" people to play with them in their "preferred sandbox" and quite frankly it will have to reverse effect on me and very likely of like mind as me. Way I see it you can't "force" people to be your friends and play with you.

Von3 is a nice XP quest for farming off destinies, even casuals can run it once or twice a day or once every couple days for some decent XP. Changing this is just lame, in another thread about valcomms I said the agreed that the valcom drop-rate needed to be increased but didn't mind the 6mill XP karma requirement for ETR but this here will change my mind about the last bit.

Increase the xp of other quests to "encourage" poeple to run it more but leave von3 alone.

[xTethx]

Turbine,

How about instead of dropping the exp on some quests, you raise the exp on a LOT of others to make them more attractive to run. This tiny list of increases, while good, only scratches the surface. Jungle of Khyber isn't run so much simply because it's worth a giant pile of exp, but also because it's a fairly straightforward quest. There's no annoying hoops to jump through, no puzzles, no back and forth running. Just a more or less straight line to the end with a boss fight. It's just a simple standalone quest, worth good exp, that's right next to the Airship.

Look at the other options for level 9 quests: Threnal? Don't make me laugh! Annoying escort missions, failure states, out of the way in an explorer area, and worth relatively poor exp. The same goes for Redfens: Quests in an explorer area with gimmicks: The underwater mechanics of Into the Deep and Fathom the Depths are poor. The Last Stand has a failure state and is basically standing around waiting for enemies to arrive. The Claw of Vulkoor can be zerged with invis(kinda), but it's still more of a gimmick than the straight zerg run of Jungle of Khyber, and is worth less exp.

The only other quest at level 9 that competes with Jungle is the Shadow Crypt, but even THAT has to done using a workaround to repeat it, and most people require a wiki guide to complete in reasonable time.

The problem is far more complex than simply how much time it takes to complete a quest. Even the time it takes to complete is more complex when you take into account the travel to actually reach the quest entrance.

Turbine, you need to take a step back and really try to understand why people run the quests they do. It's NOT simply a matter of how much exp a quest is worth. Fiddling around with exp values needs to be done in a more comprehensive manner, with much better understanding of how and why players run each quest(or don't run it, in some cases).

Plz reread op. It says epic only. Which is completely fine.

[Ghoulstorm]

• The Druid's Curse (Epic only)
• Thorn and Paw (Epic only)
• Outbreak (Epic only)

These quests absolutely need a good sized bump on heroic as well. As it is, they are one and done for favor and then maybe a Casual breeze through if you happen to need comms. It is some of the most abysmally craptastic xp offered in the game and even on full elite streak seems more like a slap in the face than something worth doing. I have no idea why Overgrowth was left off. It is every bit as bad in both Heroic and Epic. Maybe they'll get enough of a bump to be ran in Epic, but as for Heroic, I'll hit them on Elite for the favor when I'm lvl 25 or so and not miss out on many xps.

As for VoN 3, I'm not going to complain about something that probably should've been changed a long time ago. Even if I don't like it. Thanks for the forewarning. I'm off to massacre some Luridae.