Let's Talk About Update 21 XP Changes

[Qhualor]

I just listened to DDOCast where Cordovan said on the subject of XP changes "You do some quests for XP and some are just for fun".

Hold for Re-enforcements has aweful XP and didn't get any love on the last pass. I can only assume it is working as intended and this is one of those quests you do for fun.

That's right, Cordovan defends Coyle for fun!

That quest would be more fun if they would fix agro. You can knock him out and be on the other side of the quest, but mobs from the opposite end still see him and go straight to him ignoring you.

[Thrudh]

Thank you for doing this.

I like the Shadowfell content, but there was not much motivation to run it after the first tour due to items and xp. Although I like to run the quests it seems hard to fill an LFM for them.

Me too... I like the new content, and I'm very glad of the exp changes.

If the only negative is lowering VON3 (which EVERYONE knows is too high), then this change is hugely net positive.

But don't worry, the doom-bois will be along to say "This change sucks".

[Thrudh]

Helen Keller could see that eVon3, especially on Normal, was giving an inordinate experience for the level of effort. You don't have to be Nostradamus or some sort of MMO Elitist to see that an adjustment was coming.

Truth be told an adjustment is most likely very warranted for the overall "big picture" health of the game. 7k+ per named and 60-80k+ end reward XP for a quick normal run? Really?!?

Yep, and at least they waited until they could up two dozen other quests exp... so that's a huge net gain for all of us...

[Thrudh]

Turbine,

How about instead of dropping the exp on some quests, you raise the exp on a LOT of others to make them more attractive to run. This tiny list of increases, while good, only scratches the surface. Jungle of Khyber isn't run so much simply because it's worth a giant pile of exp, but also because it's a fairly straightforward quest. There's no annoying hoops to jump through, no puzzles, no back and forth running. Just a more or less straight line to the end with a boss fight. It's just a simple standalone quest, worth good exp, that's right next to the Airship.

Look at the other options for level 9 quests: Threnal? Don't make me laugh! Annoying escort missions, failure states, out of the way in an explorer area, and worth relatively poor exp. The same goes for Redfens: Quests in an explorer area with gimmicks. The underwater mechanics of Into the Deep and Fathom the Depths are poor. The Last Stand has a failure state and is basically standing around waiting for enemies to arrive. The Claw of Vulkoor can be zerged with invis(kinda), but it's still more of a gimmick than the straight zerg run of Jungle of Khyber, and is worth less exp.

The only other quest at level 9 that competes with Jungle is the Shadow Crypt, but even THAT has to done using a workaround to repeat it, and most people require a wiki guide to complete in reasonable time.

The problem is far more complex than simply how much time it takes to complete a quest. Even the time it takes to complete is more complex when you take into account the travel to actually reach the quest entrance.

Turbine, you need to take a step back and really try to understand why people run the quests they do. It's NOT simply a matter of how much exp a quest is worth. Fiddling around with exp values needs to be done in a more comprehensive manner, with much better understanding of how and why players run each quest(or don't run it, in some cases).

You are wrong... how much exp a quest is worth is nearly 100% of why people run a certain quest over others... Loot may make up 10% of that.

Your own post proves it... You mention Shadow Crypt, which many people have to have a wiki page open to do, and people still run it because the exp is so good...

All those other quests you mention are very good quests... Give them more xp and people will run them.

I can't believe you just asked for more straightforward run to the boss fight quests... All those quests you mentioned that have hoops to jump through, puzzles, etc. are what make this game FUN (for most of us). You'd be happy with a single room with a chest and boss that you run over and over and over.

[pHo3nix]

Zerg is an ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT in TWO Quests that I know of in this Game: Offering of Blood and Prey on the Hunter!

Where I ask is Flower-Sniffing an ABSOLUTE REQUIREMENT?

Shouldn't there be Quests for Everyone?


Hey I get it - I understand that when you're under Time Restraints you want to be Able to move fast.
BUT
3 Hella Pro/Tribe Zerg Veterans each doing a Tower take How Long to complete Wiz King exactly?
3 Hella Pro/Tribe Zerg Veterans doing each Tower Together take How Long to complete Wiz King?

IF The second is less than 3 times the Duration of the first then I refer you back to my Previous Posts:

Where I stated that Optional XP should be Boosted so as to Make Running the Quest ONCE with Full Optionals etc. MORE XP than Running it twice as Fast as Possible!


Heck I'd be surprised if 3-6 players like yourself couldn't run Wiz King as a Group with ALL Opts, Ransack, Conquest and Ingenious in Less than 25 Minutes!

Just because you can currently do it in 10 by Splitting Up doesn't mean that's a GOOD thing for the Game!


P.S. The meaning of "Zerg" seems to be Fluid and has changed Plenty in the 3.5 years I've been playing DDO {My FIRST and ONLY MMO!} - Just like the Meaning of BYOH changes depending on who you ask.

The meaning of Flower Sniffing however is Quite obvious and ALWAYS Quite Plainly FALSE and DEROGATORY!


I'd have No issues with Zerging/Zergers if they weren't so obviously also Elitists!

Zerg/BYOH/Solo a Tower and all that it represents is the Issue.
NOT
I want to run this quest as fast as I/We Can!


Last Night I put up a couple of LFMs on Cannith I honestly thought would NEVER Fill!

1) GH Fast Slayers {Major Pot in use} - First person joined as I started on Fist {asked him to run Eye}, Group was Full by the time I got to Heart - 10 Minutes to Fill!

2) Orchard Slayers - Full Clearance NOT Resetting Instance - One person joined while I was still on Airship, Cleared Fleahmakers to GoP, Thru Tunnel and down to Vol and Group was FULL!
20 mins to Fill!


Also BEFORE I ran these Slayers on Pots I did a GH Cabal, PoP, Madstone, Tor run Elite BB - And two very famous Cannithites Joined - One Proceeded to run to the top of PoP and Solo Half of the Rooms while I and another Player did Fire and Air Rooms.
The Other who having entered PoP as we completed Proceeded to Massacre Madstone before leaving Group Happy!
The First then Massacred Tor while I tried in Vain to Simply keep up!

Heck I didn't mind - I was in a rush myself as it's getting closer and closer to the twelfth and the Cut-Off Point for FREE Epic Hearts BUT Did those two people actually make those quests easier for myself or the other guy?

NOPE!

I was forced to go to my Bow in Fire {On a Tempest!} as the Other Guy insisted on doing the Lever {My Hireling - That would have done the lever - died of course within 5 seconds of Fight Starting.

In Air I put the Hire on the Lever again and me and the other guy did it {Myself still using the Bow of the Elements {AIR!}} BUT would that have been easier with the WF Wizard in there with us - HECK YEAH!!!

In Madstone - WF Wizard DIDN'T INVIS THE GIANTS!
Me and the Other guy were left on 1st Crystal - A Tempest using a Bow to keep aggro off Giant and a Melee Monk - NO AoEs or CC!
Second Crystal was done BEFORE FIRST!!

Tor - Lol - Was Finished Fast and Easy BUT is Frankly ALWAYS Finished Fast and Easy!


I've got the greatest Respect for those two guys for their ability to Play this game and would gladly run with either of them again.
I'm also happy to run with the Monk again despite his/her cowardice in PoP!
And Yes I died Myself in Tor - Was left Fighting a Multitude of Giant Casters!

BUT

Did my LFM say Zerg, Byoh, Be Self Sufficient or ANYTHING of that Ilk?

HELL NO!

Do my LFMs EVER Say anything of that Ilk?

ONCE on Molineux - His FvS Life - Lords of Dust - I put Elite BB BYOH {Euurgh I feel Dirty!} because I KNEW He wasn't Heal Capable and Didn't want to give people any illusions about the fact that he was a MELEE Build!
Group was Full in NO TIME!

Would I put BYOH on an LFM in Future?

NOPE!

Molineux will be Off his FvS life soon enough {already at 20 and just waiting for a Heart} and Every One of my other Divine Toons IS and WILL ALWAYS BE Group Heal Capable!

I like to zerg and i usually assume it's the default in any group, but if i'm asked to slow down i would just slow down, finish the quest following PL desires and then leave. So, have you tried to ask them to slow down? It usually works

About Madstone: madstone is similar to wiz king; if there are 3 people you can have 1 person on each seer and complete in a decent amount of time. Invis is still working on Heroic, so just invis the giant and kill mobs.

If you don't like zerging just put "no zerg--healer needed" in the lfm: most zergers would never join such a group, so you can do both them and yourself a favor

@OP: Can you please increase the xp in evening star heroic quests as well? Considering at almost the same lvl you can run litany, missing, running with the devils, sane asylum there's really no reason to run those quests for xp.

[Nascoe]

I know this may be absurd, but just change all xp in game to automagically adjust the quest xp = to <n> xp/min no matter what quest you run, no matter how long it takes.

That way the xp/min crowd will run whatever quest since they are all the exact same xp/min. Unless you do that we are going to have the "best quest to run" and "worst quests to run" lists.

It seems that this is the ultimate equalizer on time. People can play what they want... zerger, flowersniffer, and be completely equal. It might even revitalize the pug scene as people wont get mad about ruining their "xp/min".

We are past this point in the MMO industry. The games are becoming free to play and are not requiring the grind to keep the money train from hardcore subscribers. Let DDO be the first the embrace, and create, trends that people really want.

A really great idea that. Just park your character in good XP quest in some room you can close the door of, leave for work and when you come home you will earn a couple of lvls in one go! I really do not think that is a good game mechanic, because it takes away the enjoyment of the zerger of being able to get things done fast. The flowersniffer does not need a XP/min because that is not their motivation for running the quest at all.

[dragon2fire]

Me too... I like the new content, and I'm very glad of the exp changes.

If the only negative is lowering VON3 (which EVERYONE knows is too high), then this change is hugely net positive.

But don't worry, the doom-bois will be along to say "This change sucks".

Lets be clear this change is not doom/....it is stupid plain and simple.

[Thrudh]

This is what I felt like when I stepped into Wheloon the first time and saw the teleporter NPC. The wilderness areas are getting bigger, longer and harder to navigate just so they can toss those teleporter guys in order to exploit their Astral Shard System (see what I did there?).

Gianthold and Sands are just as big... so it's something they've always done. Once you learn the new explorer areas, every quest is super fast to get to, without spending astral shards. That feature is there just for the lazy.

You guys do nothing but exaggerate.

[Thrudh]

LOLz . . . tripling the XP of Shadowfail won't make people run those quests any more.

Explorer areas are too much of a pain. Stormhorns is too big, Wheloon gets quadruple spawns and lags out entire parties. They are too difficult to run fast, if at all, in off-destinies needed for the ridiculous karma farming on EE.

Another dumb idea.

Run them on EH when off-destiny karma farming.

And if they tripled the xp, I guarentee every powergamer would be out there running them...

Quite a few of those quests are VERY fast.

[patang01]

I love how everyone is talking like it's something you HAVE to be a part of. If you don't like, why do it? Is it a competition, do you have to be more powerful than everyone else? I'm not making fun, I honestly just don't get it.

I like how some assume that if Turbine change the way I play I should just give up my playstyle and enjoyment and do it their way because they created an abnoxious system. I pay Turbine for my entertainment. I don't pay them to make my entertainment a boring chore.
Do I have to do it? How about I don't pay at all and leave? How will that help you in the long run? Why not argue for a better system that retain you and me and a healthy player base instead of arguing to maintain a ****** system just because you can't imagine something better for all of us?
My argument is about retention of people like me that want to reward Turbine for great content. Your argument is for me to bend over and just try to enjoy it.

And given the shrinking player base I think your argument quickens the end. I did not create the ****** off destiny karma system. Turbine did. But lets answer your question simply - what else is there? Just doing the same quests over and over for no reason what so ever? No goal - none in regards to loot or even achievements? Just because I'm at cap with my destiny and should just run a quest? Do I need to be more powerful than anyone else? I honestly don't care - I want a achievable goal. Something to look forward to, to notice an improvement for my own reasons. I don't care how 'powerful' anyone else is - I just want to be able to do harder content, achieve a few more goals and see some changes in progression.

Most people (maybe not you) do things because of progression. Regression drives people away and flat lining eventually bores people and they leave. If there's no goal there's no reason. I doubt it's in the best interest of a company like Turbine to hope that it can retain people by making their entertainment experience suck or not progress.

Because as far as the numbers shows it's not exactly the greatest idea so far. I don't know if this answers your 'I don't get it' question but there you have it.

[Teh_Troll]

Run them on EH when off-destiny karma farming.

With the current XP that's pointless. If it was tripled it's worth it.

[Thrudh]

Lets be clear this change is not doom/....it is stupid plain and simple.

No, it's an awesome change... Increase the exp on 20 quests... and in return lower the exp on 1 quest... That's a great deal... I'll take it.

VON 3 is a good fun quest... Dropping it to 90k per run instead of 120k isn't going to stop anyone from running it.

[Thrudh]

With the current XP that's pointless. If it was tripled it's worth it.

You just said triple them and it still wouldn't be worth it. Now you say the opposite. You are an excellent troll.

And many of those Wheelon and Stormhorn quests are super fast if you know how to run them... Surely, you've run with some powergamers who can show you how, right?

(The correct answer to that question is "Don't call me Shirley")

[Arkitektonik]

How about Cannith Challenges get some love? Specifically filling them out to lvl28 and boosting the woeful heroic xp...

[JOTMON]

No, it's an awesome change... Increase the exp on 20 quests... and in return lower the exp on 1 quest... That's a great deal... I'll take it.

VON 3 is a good fun quest... Dropping it to 90k per run instead of 120k isn't going to stop anyone from running it.

You are being optimistic...
more like 1% increase to all these quests and a 90% decrease to Von3 along with some bug that causes the barrier to go up before you are in the endfight room that causes the quest to be uncompletable.

[Teh_Troll]

You just said triple them and it still wouldn't be worth it. Now you say the opposite. You are an excellent troll.

My trolling is stream of consciousness. Don't expect me to remember what I trolled 5 minutes ago.

And many of those Wheelon and Stormhorn quests are super fast if you know how to run them... Surely, you've run with some powergamers who can show you how, right?

I don't run these EH, ever. The only one that can't be run quick is WGU. But they are a pain to get to for some people and the Wheloon explorer area is broken.

But in looking for XP . . . these are a waste of time as there are much better options. In fact . . . I'm pretty sure VON3 was the only thing that was more than Impossible Demands at 80% ransack.

[Scraap]

You missed the Point!

I Solo all the time {yes with a Hireling!}.

I have NOTHING Against someone Soloing {with or without Hireling} Wiz King {Obviously this is the ONLY part of my post you actually read!}.

My Suggestion would simply cut out the Solo a Tower Cr@p!

You want to Solo all 3 Towers go right ahead!

Heck grab Ransack, Conquest and Ingenious while you're at it!!!

BUT

If you're gonna Group Up - GROUP UP!

It's NOT a Race!



Wiz King would be a GREAT Quest if the Devs had made it so you couldn't enter Tower 2 or 3 till the Previous Tower/s were Done!

As it is It's possibly my least favourite quest in the Game!

Simply because of the Elitism of the Be able to Solo a Tower or Don't Join LFMs that have been Ubiquitous for as long as I've been playing this game {Going on for 4 years now!}.


Heck I have characters who I know Could Solo Wiz King at Level on Elite BB - I Won't Join Solo a Tower LFMs though!


And I don't see why ignoring Ransack, Conquest, Ingenious etc. Should give NOT ONLY a Faster Completion BUT More XP too!!!!!

Running Two Quick Completions SHOULD NOT give as Much XP in ANY Quest as Grabbing EVERY Optional Does!


And yes I can see that the Be able to Solo a Tower LFMs would also start requesting you have Rogue/Arti Levels and KILL/SMASH Everything!!
SO
Simply Upping the Optional XP is NOT going to make the Difference!

So - Apply the Harried Debuff if TWO Rooms of Mobs {In different Towers} are Active at the Same time {No Matter HOW MANY Mobs are Active!}!!!


The Only reason Players fight for their right to "Solo in Groups" is because of the Meta-Game and their Knowledge of the Quests!

The Devs Simply CAN'T Randomise the Quests well enough to Stop this from Happening so other means of Keeping Parties together must be Looked at!


Soloists can always Solo - Heck I solo all the time myself!

But when I join {or make} a Party I'm NOT Looking to SOLO!

I've run groups that have and haven't split. Because we could decide. Team work doesn't automatically mean standing on each others... er... toes.

[mutilador]

No, it's an awesome change... Increase the exp on 20 quests... and in return lower the exp on 1 quest... That's a great deal... I'll take it.

VON 3 is a good fun quest... Dropping it to 90k per run instead of 120k isn't going to stop anyone from running it.

No, its not. Its a stupid change cos Shadowfail is stupid, stupid purple fog, stupid long walks, stupid instant red alerts.

I do run those quests every life and yes it really needs a xp boost but this dont make it awesome.

[Ancient]

I can do an ok job of getting to the prison quests... but then I have to try to rescue party members who can't. The zone is ugly and annoying.

I haven't ran many of the stormhold quests because I got sick of running 10+ minutes to find a quest while I was playing ever quest. The ruins of karnak expansion bragged about "remote locations". EQ quickly figured out that was a horrible idea and went the other way.

Time spent traveling to and from the quest is wasted time in my book. I don't mind getting explorers as a pseudo quest, but the more difficult it is to get someplace, the less interested I am in doing it for "fun".

[FranOhmsford]

I like to zerg and i usually assume it's the default in any group, but if i'm asked to slow down i would just slow down, finish the quest following PL desires and then leave. So, have you tried to ask them to slow down? It usually works

Back in 2010 NO-ONE thought Zerg was the "Default"

This is one of those things that has changed over time - and it's NOT a good change!

As I said in my post - I was in a bit of a rush mysefl and was not overly bothered at the Zerging itself OR the people doing it {Both Very Well known Completionists!}
Heck I knew as soon as they hit the LFM that we were going to be moving a heck of a lot faster than I'm used to!

My Issue is that according to these forums {and tbh In-Game Chat Channels like Cannithtrade or Defense (Sarlona)} This is Making the Quest easier!

It's NOT - What it IS doing is "Making the Quest FASTER"

Easier and Faster are two different things!

And for me {and the Monk who was the only person to join while I was running Cabal - everyone else joined for PoP} A Certain Completionist and Cannithtrade Alumni Joining Quest and Proceeding to Go Solo the Beholder/Marilith etc. DID NOT make the Quest Easier {Nor Faster as we still had to wait for the other two to enter before completing!}.

Now I'll give him his due...He did say after I'd typed in that we were at Law Room to leave him an Orb and He'd do a Room by himself - Silly me however thought he meant ONE room before joining up with us!

Somehow {with only Cure Light - Ranger 10/Ftr 5 Tempest} I managed after losing Hire at start of fight to Kill Efreeti and Fire Eles {Fire Eles after running round the room like a loon Healing up and Swapping to Bow/Clicking Manyshot - Funny how the Tempest does MORE Dmg with the Bow!}.

So NO The Quest Was NOT made Easier!

About Madstone: madstone is similar to wiz king; if there are 3 people you can have 1 person on each seer and complete in a decent amount of time. Invis is still working on Heroic, so just invis the giant and kill mobs.

Hey...I believe I stated that the Wizard did NOT Invis the 1st Giant {I actually don't know about the second or 3rd Giant as I had to catch up.}
If he had {OR If I'd had a Clickie rather than Pots} I wouldn't even have mentioned said 1st Giant!

If you don't like zerging just put "no zerg--healer needed" in the lfm: most zergers would never join such a group, so you can do both them and yourself a favor

NO!

I won't Put No Zerg as I feel this IS the Default {and Frankly anyone saying otherwise is being incredibly Selfish and Inconsiderate of "Supposed" Lesser Players!}.

AND

I Certainly will NOT put Healer Needed as I carry a Hireling Cleric/FvS at all times anyway and am quite happy to provide Healing {or Ressing} thru them to anyone who needs such!

I may Put TRAPPER Needed BUT Only if I don't want to pay for a Hireling {Which in Many Cases of Late has been More Likely to Get the Bleedin' Traps!}.
I LIKE INGENIOUS DEBILITATION bonus Before You tell me that No Quest needs a Trapper!

@OP: Can you please increase the xp in evening star heroic quests as well? Considering at almost the same lvl you can run litany, missing, running with the devils, sane asylum there's really no reason to run those quests for xp.

/Signed!



Frankly pHo3nix I well remember you being the person who took time out to show me how to run Temple of Vol after I'd complained on these forums about EVERY SINGLE Group being Zerg BYOH Know It etc.

I know you're better than

If you don't like zerging just put "no zerg--healer needed" in the lfm: most zergers would never join such a group, so you can do both them and yourself a favor

Makes you sound!

Many Many Players out there would NEVER join a Group Labelled Zerg BYOH Know it etc. Yet I see these Labels on LFMs All day Every day!

I've Personally HAD to join such groups from time to time {as I at the time Had no Hope of Soloing Said Quests and Despite what these forums think Grouping Up can STILL make Quests Easier for those of us who aren't able to Solo everything in the game even without a Hireling!}.

So Yes I've Enabled the Zerg BYOH Know It Mentality from time to time myself {Just by joining those Groups!}.

What I DON'T Get is Why you seem to think that Despite these Groups filling fast anyway EVERY Group that DOESN'T specifically State NO ZERG also means Zerg Ahead!


Don't make Us "Lesser Players" out to be the Bad Guys when you want to Both have Your Zerg AND Eat it!!!!!