why are Shadar-kai so gimped

[Clarice]

I have looking again at the Iconic Heroes, and I just wonder why Shadar-kai are so gimped ?

they lose the extra Human feat at level 1, and they only get one ability enhancement when all other races get 2. What makes them worth taking ?

Can't see it myself atm


Clarice

[Therrias]

+1 dodge past life.

Until then you enjoy shadow wings and extra sneak attack. Great for pale trappers and unarmed monks.

[tapster]

As a Shadar-kai monk I love the extra sneak, (I can't stand Halflings).

The AOE chain is icing for me as, contrary to another thread somewhere, it doesn't uncentre you

[Violith]

As a Shadar-kai monk I love the extra sneak, (I can't stand Halflings).

The AOE chain is icing for me as, contrary to another thread somewhere, it doesn't uncentre you

chain would be nice if it kept our sneak attack, for the low amount of damage it does after about lvl 18 I had to respec and merely take the first ability of it since the AP cost was too much for all of it without really much gain, (max damage is only like 130peirce+20slash so 75dmg averaged max reflex for half, for a min of 13pts spent in the tree... my unarmed damage can hit for 3-4x more then that in the amount of time the attack sequence is, AOE is nice but could just pick up a cleave or two and deal more damage for less AP Cost) the knockdown was nice but not nearly as good as I hoped for my build (max DC of what 38+dexmod, which since its reflex it can be evaded as can the damage), the 20sec whirl was decent with the burst damage (up to an extra 120dmg (60av)) when I had it and the burst damage was only like 3-4 times outta the 20sec and had to build up rather then be a constant increase so it drew agro quick (usually on the first burst damage) and usually causes you to abort it before its that high if you didnt want to end up dead.

would've liked to spend more pts in the racial tree, the invisibility/incorp stuff seemed nice, but everything was just too expensive, think basically everything worthwhile was 2AP. which for a racial tree broke the bank too much to be worth it, dont even think I have a T5 ability on my shadarkai due to AP.

racial AP costs should only be 2 for powerful abiltiies (the whirl chain, the base chain, stat core, possibly the chain knockdown) everything else should cost 1 (chain build ups, the last 3 cores, gloomstalker, nothing is hidden (sure the elven/drow are 2AP but theirs is at t2 so only requiring 5pts spent in tree, shadarkai's is at t4 requiring 15pts spent in tree) wintered favored (seriously 2AP for 1d6 cold dmg? that only worked on sneak attacks).

chain attacks should be changed,
base chain should be 1d6+4dmg +1d6/lvl, with current sneak attack applying, even if they have agro.
whirling chain should give 50-100ppr when its active (10ppr is just too small of a drop to do any good), and should have current sneak attack apply in addition to the burst. and then maybe it'd be worth it.
Either that or make it give the dizzing chain debuff that enemies get (-10% Weapon Damage per stack, 5% Attack Speed per stack, -2 Concentration per stacks Stacks up to 8 times, stack adding up every 2 seconds that it is active, so -80%dmg, -40% attack speed, and -16concentration, timer based on stacks and takes 1 stack off each time it wears off) seems about right for the cost of investment, xD, course we dont have the same CD that the enemies get (theirs is like 5seconds as opposed to our 3min CD, but it balances it out dontcha think)

[Red_Knight]

I think you're maybe forgetting that Shadar-Kai are intended as rogues. The chain attacks don't break stealth, and do some rather good damage. Maybe not "one shot everything on epic elite", but still good damage. I decided to try soloing the Spinner of Shadows chain on a newly made shadar kai, did pretty good without any hirelings till the last quest in the chain. Sneaking into a sizable group, hitting the whirling chain ability (I think that's the name of the 20 second duration one), and then watching the entire group including the death knights and red name dropping after 20 seconds... And I was still stealthed? That was awesome. I then went to Forgotten realms and started doing quests 2 or 3 levels above me. Again, I had to be careful but I was running level 18 quests at level 15.

Maybe you find them gimped because you are using the iconic race for a class it's racial abilities are ill suited for?

And by the way, I have seen the chain deal sneak attack damage in addition to it's normal damage.

[Relem]

Red Knight, I think what you did was down to you as a player and not down to being Shadar-Kia. On Pre-U19 content up to EH, my Shadar-Kia assassin is having a great laugh whipping and assassinating everything. On Post U19 content and specifically EE, not having fun at all. Why? Due to the stupidly high saves the mobs have, and I can see matters are only going to get worse with each new adventure pack that comes out. Instead of letting players create balanced assassins that can assassinate on a regular basis and cause a a fair amount of damage with their chain, you have to choose which you ability you want to do. Put everything in Dex, your chain will cause a bit of damage but will attract more aggro then Bruce Willis and your survival rate drops because you can't self heal when that chain is spinning. Or go pure Int based for your assassinate, then hope you can one shot the target you're after (which incidentally is likely to save anyway).

A player controlled Shadar-Kia can not be anywhere near as dangerous as the Dev controlled Shadar-Kia, especially since their chain has the dizzying effect. Our only saving grace is that the Dev team does not have the assassinate ability... For now.

Face it people, the game is unbalanced. It's driven by the CoD Head Shot players that make toons like the Moncher and Shiradi Casters, and the devs response is to make quests where the mobs have stupidly high HP and saves which is killing the game for pure classes.

[oradafu]

Face it people, the game is unbalanced. It's driven by the CoD Head Shot players that make toons like the Moncher and Shiradi Casters, and the devs response is to make quests where the mobs have stupidly high HP and saves which is killing the game for pure classes.

It didn't help that when the new enhancement pass happened, the Devs totally ignored pure classes after giving multiclasses the 6 tree boost. The core abilities as a whole are completely weak, not just the capstones.

And at the time, the Devs not only ignored players complaints about the weak capstones, but openly mocked players who complained by shutting down input to boosting capstones by stating that increasing the capstones would be "unreasonable." Yes, boosting capstones was considered unreasonable when compared to the additional 3 to 4 additional trees with low-hanging fruit of abilities for splashing one or two levels. And it's been at least 6 months since the Devs shut down player input to capstones, much less the upper core abilities.

[Rhysem]

Can't make any claim to CoD unless you mean Crossroads of Dereth... which I doubt.

I was thinking about rolling up a Shadar for the pl for my last monk life too, with a strange 8 monk/6 rogue/6 fighter split, focused on the TA's knockdown quarterstaff AoE, Whirlwind Attack, and the chain set. Would it work if my goal is only to hit 28 and ITR and I don't really care about doing EEs? (I see a lot of "anything works" in EH, and yes I understand but I might like to solo competently "for fun" and I don't just mean VON3.)

[Theolin]

Can't make any claim to CoD unless you mean Crossroads of Dereth... which I doubt.

I was thinking about rolling up a Shadar for the pl for my last monk life too, with a strange 8 monk/6 rogue/6 fighter split, focused on the TA's knockdown quarterstaff AoE, Whirlwind Attack, and the chain set. Would it work if my goal is only to hit 28 and ITR and I don't really care about doing EEs? (I see a lot of "anything works" in EH, and yes I understand but I might like to solo competently "for fun" and I don't just mean VON3.)

I have a 8/6/6 shadar ...it works really well as a dex based cleaving staff wielder - actually 6/6/6 & pick 1 to be 8 is quite survivable with just cocoon at least for EH, its not bad for most EEs, healing is an issue but it is with any melee in EE.

[Silken-Akira]

I have a pure one (assasin) that just hit 20 and have to admit that going up I will respec but with being pure I don't find not enough interesting stuff. I also don't find the capstone of the race worth it at all.

[Valakai]

They look kind of cool and start at level 15...unfortunately that is pretty much it on the positives.

Aaaand I have one and she is awesome...but would be better from min/max as human though not by much.

[Sokól]

I agree the racial tree is great in heroics but not very special in epics. I tr´ed into 1 thinking they had an extra feat.

The only thing they got going for them is how cool they look.

[tapster]

I agree the racial tree is great in heroics but not very special in epics. I tr´ed into 1 thinking they had an extra feat.

The only thing they got going for them is how cool they look.

I can finally have the cambion I always wanted...(thankyou glowing eyes cosmetic)

[stoerm]

I'm considering purchasing Shadar-Kai. Without any experience the enhancement tree looks worse than for humans. No healing amp etc. and now it turns out they don't get a 2nd feat at level one. Doesn't look very appealing.

[MartinusWyllt]

The 1 rogue/14 monk version as a crucible toon is great, can hit 37 or 38 v. traps then shadow your way to the horn (as well as easily get the agility and intuition horns) and get out and that's off-the-rack.

[IronClan]

It's a simple matter of the other iconics having unintended synergies as something else besides their default class. Shadar just aren't better at anything they should be better at. And the main thing that could have made them very interesting (abundant step without 12 monk 17fvs etc. Is saddled with a cooldowns so long that its not fun and not worth bothering with as a selling point to make a build out of. The cost of their racials are amazing (morninglord suffers the same problem, sunburst SLA with a 26 second cd for 30ish AP? No thanks)

[Iriale]

Well, the shadar kai have a racial tree. Better o worse, but all races have a racial tree

but, where are all shadar-kai racial feats?

See:
Dwarf:
• +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma.
• Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven axe as martial weapons (meaning you class needs martial weapons to gain Dwarven axe by default, Rogues for example, do not get martial weapons by default), rather than exotic weapons.
• +4 racial bonus on balance ability checks.
• +2 racial bonus on Search checks.
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells.
• +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids.
• +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type.

Elf (and morninglord after the next update)
• +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution
• Immunity to sleep spells and effects
• +2 saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects
• +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
• Weapon Proficiency: Elves are automatically proficient with the longsword, rapier, longbow, composite longbow, shortbow, and composite shortbow.

Halfling
• +2 Dexterity, –2 Strength
• +1 size bonus to Armor Class
• +1 size bonus on attack rolls
• +4 size bonus on Hide checks
• +2 racial bonus on Jump, Listen, and Move Silently checks.
• +1 racial bonus on all saving throws.
• +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear: This bonus stacks with the Halfling’s +1 bonus on saving throws in general.
• +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons.
• Carrying capacity is three-quarters of that of a Medium character.
• -4 intimidate penalty for each class size lower (-4 vs. normal, -8 vs. large)

Human and Purple dragon:
• +4 skill points at character creation
• +1 skill point at every level after level 1
• 1 bonus feat at level 1.

Drow:
• +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma, -2 Constitution
• Immunity to sleep spells and effects
• +2 saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects
• Spell Resistance: 10+Character Level
• +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
• Weapon Proficiency: Drow are automatically proficient with the rapiers, shortswords, and shurikens.

Warforged:
• +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma
• Immune to Sleep, Hold Person, Energy Drained, Nauseated, Exhausted, and Paralyzed effects.
• Immune to ability score damage from Natural Poisons, and Natural Diseases but are vulnerable to those that effect wood or metal.
• Warforged gain a +10 racial bonus to saving throws against Magical Poisons and Magical Diseases and do not fail saving throws against them on a roll of a natural 1 (this makes you immune to Magical Poisons and Magical Diseases with a DC of less than 11+your Fortitude save). If you transform into a different type of creature, you will lose these benefits until you return to your Warforged form.
• Immunity to spells targeting a humanoid.
• A Warforged can remain underwater indefinitely (no oxygen bar displayed).
• A Warforged's Composite Plating provides 5% arcane spell failure chance. This plating is not considered natural armor, and it takes the place of body armor. Because of this, the Warforged is prohibited from wearing other kinds of armor, regardless of its class proficiencies. It can still wield shields and other enhancing items such as helmets, boots, trinkets, and jewelry. Feats taken at character creation can upgrade this plating and its type, changing it to either light or heavy armor. See also Mithral Body, Adamantine Body.
• The ability to wear a docent in the slot which other characters use for armor. Magical docents usually provide an enchantment bonus to armor class, and may have other magical enhancements. They also have a cosmetic effect on appearance.
• A Warforged's plating also grants it a special feat which provides a stacking +25% Fortification. When the Warforged is the target of a sneak attack or critical hit, there is a 25% chance for the attack to be negated and the damage to be rolled normally. This effect stacks with Fortification.
• Divine healing spells and potions restore only half as many hit points as normal for a Warforged (this can be increased up to 80% effectiveness with the addition of the Healer's Friend racial enhancement). A warforged's hit points can be restored normally through arcane repair spells and potions, as well as the Lay on hands Paladin ability or the Divine healing cleric enha
Bladeforged has warforged traits and additional traits

Halfelf
• Dilettante feat at level 1.
• +1 racial bonus to Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
• Naturally immune to magical sleep effects.
• +2 racial bonus to Diplomacy, and also gain an additional check for each use of Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate on a separate cooldown timer.
(of course dilettante feat is garbage without a cheap improvement for enhancements, but they have racial traits)

But Shadar-kai has:
• +2 Dexterity
• -2 Charisma

??? it's a joke. They don't have racial traits. Morninglords don't have racial traits now, but devs will fix in the next update. Shadar-kai won't obtain a fix.

please, bug report. Our complains and bug reports have got a fix for morninglords. But shadar-kai need a fix too.

[thegreatneil]

There is plenty of junk in the Shadar-kia tree.
And they don't get a bonus feat due to not being human (sorta)

From wiki: Shadar-kai Do Not receive a bonus feat at level 1 since they are Extraplanar, Outsiders from the Plane of Shadow.
I do hope that they cant be banished, but who knows.

Now there are a few gems in the tree, if you look hard.
The shadow phase and jaunt, excellent for hit and run tactics, and losing agro. (even solo)
Improved dodge.
Guile.
Gloom stalker, love this ability, as it triggers first so you can assassinate mobs even if you have agro.

Tried the chain and thought, would have been faster to have just stabbed them.

As for Nothing is hidden, if it didn't need both spot and search to work I would use it as well but as is, I cant think of a way to get BOTH
high enough.

[Irenae]

actually, they can be banished but I doubt DDO will implement that. When banished they go back to the extraplaner world they are from. They can however also come back to this world again too if they can find a portal.

[Icywave]

What makes them worth taking ?

The past life Passive AND Toggle are very nice.