why are Shadar-kai so gimped

[Clarice]

I have looking again at the Iconic Heroes, and I just wonder why Shadar-kai are so gimped ?

they lose the extra Human feat at level 1, and they only get one ability enhancement when all other races get 2. What makes them worth taking ?

Can't see it myself atm


Clarice

[Therrias]

+1 dodge past life.

Until then you enjoy shadow wings and extra sneak attack. Great for pale trappers and unarmed monks.

[tapster]

As a Shadar-kai monk I love the extra sneak, (I can't stand Halflings).

The AOE chain is icing for me as, contrary to another thread somewhere, it doesn't uncentre you

[Violith]

As a Shadar-kai monk I love the extra sneak, (I can't stand Halflings).

The AOE chain is icing for me as, contrary to another thread somewhere, it doesn't uncentre you

chain would be nice if it kept our sneak attack, for the low amount of damage it does after about lvl 18 I had to respec and merely take the first ability of it since the AP cost was too much for all of it without really much gain, (max damage is only like 130peirce+20slash so 75dmg averaged max reflex for half, for a min of 13pts spent in the tree... my unarmed damage can hit for 3-4x more then that in the amount of time the attack sequence is, AOE is nice but could just pick up a cleave or two and deal more damage for less AP Cost) the knockdown was nice but not nearly as good as I hoped for my build (max DC of what 38+dexmod, which since its reflex it can be evaded as can the damage), the 20sec whirl was decent with the burst damage (up to an extra 120dmg (60av)) when I had it and the burst damage was only like 3-4 times outta the 20sec and had to build up rather then be a constant increase so it drew agro quick (usually on the first burst damage) and usually causes you to abort it before its that high if you didnt want to end up dead.

would've liked to spend more pts in the racial tree, the invisibility/incorp stuff seemed nice, but everything was just too expensive, think basically everything worthwhile was 2AP. which for a racial tree broke the bank too much to be worth it, dont even think I have a T5 ability on my shadarkai due to AP.

racial AP costs should only be 2 for powerful abiltiies (the whirl chain, the base chain, stat core, possibly the chain knockdown) everything else should cost 1 (chain build ups, the last 3 cores, gloomstalker, nothing is hidden (sure the elven/drow are 2AP but theirs is at t2 so only requiring 5pts spent in tree, shadarkai's is at t4 requiring 15pts spent in tree) wintered favored (seriously 2AP for 1d6 cold dmg? that only worked on sneak attacks).

chain attacks should be changed,
base chain should be 1d6+4dmg +1d6/lvl, with current sneak attack applying, even if they have agro.
whirling chain should give 50-100ppr when its active (10ppr is just too small of a drop to do any good), and should have current sneak attack apply in addition to the burst. and then maybe it'd be worth it.
Either that or make it give the dizzing chain debuff that enemies get (-10% Weapon Damage per stack, 5% Attack Speed per stack, -2 Concentration per stacks Stacks up to 8 times, stack adding up every 2 seconds that it is active, so -80%dmg, -40% attack speed, and -16concentration, timer based on stacks and takes 1 stack off each time it wears off) seems about right for the cost of investment, xD, course we dont have the same CD that the enemies get (theirs is like 5seconds as opposed to our 3min CD, but it balances it out dontcha think)

[Red_Knight]

I think you're maybe forgetting that Shadar-Kai are intended as rogues. The chain attacks don't break stealth, and do some rather good damage. Maybe not "one shot everything on epic elite", but still good damage. I decided to try soloing the Spinner of Shadows chain on a newly made shadar kai, did pretty good without any hirelings till the last quest in the chain. Sneaking into a sizable group, hitting the whirling chain ability (I think that's the name of the 20 second duration one), and then watching the entire group including the death knights and red name dropping after 20 seconds... And I was still stealthed? That was awesome. I then went to Forgotten realms and started doing quests 2 or 3 levels above me. Again, I had to be careful but I was running level 18 quests at level 15.

Maybe you find them gimped because you are using the iconic race for a class it's racial abilities are ill suited for?

And by the way, I have seen the chain deal sneak attack damage in addition to it's normal damage.

[Relem]

Red Knight, I think what you did was down to you as a player and not down to being Shadar-Kia. On Pre-U19 content up to EH, my Shadar-Kia assassin is having a great laugh whipping and assassinating everything. On Post U19 content and specifically EE, not having fun at all. Why? Due to the stupidly high saves the mobs have, and I can see matters are only going to get worse with each new adventure pack that comes out. Instead of letting players create balanced assassins that can assassinate on a regular basis and cause a a fair amount of damage with their chain, you have to choose which you ability you want to do. Put everything in Dex, your chain will cause a bit of damage but will attract more aggro then Bruce Willis and your survival rate drops because you can't self heal when that chain is spinning. Or go pure Int based for your assassinate, then hope you can one shot the target you're after (which incidentally is likely to save anyway).

A player controlled Shadar-Kia can not be anywhere near as dangerous as the Dev controlled Shadar-Kia, especially since their chain has the dizzying effect. Our only saving grace is that the Dev team does not have the assassinate ability... For now.

Face it people, the game is unbalanced. It's driven by the CoD Head Shot players that make toons like the Moncher and Shiradi Casters, and the devs response is to make quests where the mobs have stupidly high HP and saves which is killing the game for pure classes.

[Jasparion]

As a Shadar-kai monk I love the extra sneak, (I can't stand Halflings).

The AOE chain is icing for me as, contrary to another thread somewhere, it doesn't uncentre you

Chain is complete rubbish. The mobs in EN do double the damage with no save with their chain, the mobs in EE will kill anyone silly enough to stay in range unless they have insane HP (or Dodge - I think).

I cant imagine a time you arent decreasing your DPS - except maybe if someone else has grabbed aggro on a huge pack and you are adding a little bit of damage to each - while the rest of the party kill them.

In terms of player damage vs mob damage, I cant think of any effect where the mobs are so much better at it than the players.

[Icywave]

What makes them worth taking ?

The past life Passive AND Toggle are very nice.

[Clemeit]

You start 14 levels ahead of everyone else. What more could you possibly want?

[Irenae]

All iconics tend to be gimped, sure bladeforged is not so bad , but it's not how I want to play. You can't choose an iconics race and it's race tends to be useless on iconics. Morninglord is a good example, it starts with a wizard like stat point build for a cleric? yeah, tends to hurt that iconics are not designed with optimization in mind.

[Qhualor]

im leveling my first Shadar-kai and since I don't know much about them in D&D, I decided to look them up. what I found conflicted with a lot of what we have in DDO http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Shadar-Kai_(3.5e_Race)

usually they are better at trying to keep races and classes pretty close to D&D 3.5 version, but there is just too much of a difference from what im reading. I wonder if it has anything to do with starting out in Eberron and at level 15, but that doesn't make sense either. the starting level is an option and where you start out shouldn't affect the race abilities and what is granted to them. maybe im looking at the wrong source for info?

[fmalfeas]

im leveling my first Shadar-kai and since I don't know much about them in D&D, I decided to look them up. what I found conflicted with a lot of what we have in DDO http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Shadar-Kai_(3.5e_Race)

usually they are better at trying to keep races and classes pretty close to D&D 3.5 version, but there is just too much of a difference from what im reading. I wonder if it has anything to do with starting out in Eberron and at level 15, but that doesn't make sense either. the starting level is an option and where you start out shouldn't affect the race abilities and what is granted to them. maybe im looking at the wrong source for info?

That's a homebrew, not anything official.

[DaSawks]

IMHO Shadar-Kai players are gimped compaired to NPC's. Think I am wrong? Go play with some Shadar-Kai Assassins in epic content. The whorling blade attack is instant death like frog in a blender. Plus, if you take a moment to time the cooldowns for NPC's you will find that it is less than 60 seconds.

[Starla70]

My biggest issue with the Shadar-kai, is why is the pc version so much weaker then the mob. They hit far harder with their chain, they have almost no cool down, and they seem to be immune to so much. Why the huge difference? Yeah, yeah I know, "But the game is too easy!" Other than that over played excuse, why is there such a huge difference?

[Livmo]

I have looking again at the Iconic Heroes, and I just wonder why Shadar-kai are so gimped ?

they lose the extra Human feat at level 1, and they only get one ability enhancement when all other races get 2. What makes them worth taking ?

Can't see it myself atm


Clarice

I have 3 Shadar's, but my fav is a custom pure build with no splash. I had to adapt my play style for the particulars of them. The custom is L16 banking xp. I'm having allot of fun with this toon.

My fav. part is my UMD, so I can use scrolls and wands. I can solo this toon quite well by pumping UMD for self-heals and such. One change in tactics I use, is to get the baddies to cluster and then I whip the bejeezus out of them

With the UMD I use Invisible scrolls. If you use the chain whip while invissible it doesn't break the invis. The cool down is a little too long, but I can see why. The chain whip can be very effective. I pair this with the ability to sneak. I'm pleased I can jump now without breaking the sneak. I'm also rolling with Displacement and Blur scrolls.

On a side note, I'm using allot of augments. Especially the yellows for the elemental resists. I have an awesome shortbow and light repeater I put Festival Icy Burst on that are a blast. I have a nice set of rapiers and I'm also dual wielding Envenomed blades depending on the baddies and their DRs.

I'm using a Skullduggary belt (slotted Gift of Master in it), Parasitic Breast Plate with Symbiot, and Shade's Hood. I have a varitety of rings I'm using depending on the situation.

The only place I've had trouble so far is Heroic Elite dragons in ToR. Otherwise GH has been fun. I also did Overgrowth and Murder by Night with just a hire and I was way under level and completed both. Good times.

I'm starting to plan for epics, but I'm having too much fun at L16 to want to level right now. In my opinion they are not gimp. I may or may not change my opinion once I go epic.

0-[====>Shadar-Kai Edit<====]-0

I upgraded the Parasitic Breastplate with Will Save and I forgot to mention that.

[Zentrap]

I have 3 Shadar's, but my fav is a custom pure build with no splash. I had to adapt my play style for the particulars of them. The custom is L16 banking xp. I'm having allot of fun with this toon.

My fav. part is my UMD, so I can use scrolls and wands. I can solo this toon quite well by pumping UMD for self-heals and such. One change in tactics I use, is to get the baddies to cluster and then I whip the bejeezus out of them

With the UMD I use Invisible scrolls. If you use the chain whip while invissible it doesn't break the invis. The cool down is a little too long, but I can see why. The chain whip can be very effective. I pair this with the ability to sneak. I'm pleased I can jump now without breaking the sneak. I'm also rolling with Displacement and Blur scrolls.

On a side note, I'm using allot of augments. Especially the yellows for the elemental resists. I have an awesome shortbow and light repeater I put Festival Icy Burst on that are a blast. I have a nice set of rapiers and I'm also dual wielding Envenomed blades depending on the baddies and their DRs.

I'm using a Skullduggary belt (slotted Gift of Master in it), Parasitic Breast Plate with Symbiot, and Shade's Hood. I have a varitety of rings I'm using depending on the situation.

The only place I've had trouble so far is Heroic Elite dragons in ToR. Otherwise GH has been fun. I also did Overgrowth and Murder by Night with just a hire and I was way under level and completed both. Good times.

I'm starting to plan for epics, but I'm having too much fun at L16 to want to level right now. In my opinion they are not gimp. I may or may not change my opinion once I go epic.

0-[====>Shadar-Kai Edit<====]-0

I upgraded the Parasitic Breastplate with Will Save and I forgot to mention that.

I just like my abundant step every 30 seconds that can save your ass... Else yes the tree is weak.

[tapster]

Just give them the free Human feat already and make them a desirable race for anyone who either:-

Splashes rogue or
Like the look or
Is feat starved or
Doesn't plan to spend any AP's on race

Simple

[Violith]

Just give them the free Human feat already and make them a desirable race for anyone who either:-

Splashes rogue or
Like the look or
Is feat starved or
Doesn't plan to spend any AP's on race

Simple

well devs already said they arent humans, even though they are considered humans for gear options.

since their chain was the real marketed reason for getting them, it should do what the mobs can do, in heroics it is ok but do to mob hp its not all that great either from 16+ aside from the whirling chain.
*add their sneak attack to the chain (both versions)
*Vicious Chain should be 1 ap, and slashing chain should either be 1 ap or the dmg should be per level.
*have the Whirling Chain last indefinately until they move just like the mobs chains. abit more prr wouldnt be bad either.

[Banker]

I like my Shadar-Kai type people!

Shadar-kai
STR 8 to 14 = 1, 15/16=2 17/18=3
DEX 10 to 16 = 1, 17/18=2 19/20=3(Max)
CON 8 to 14 = 1, 15/16=2 17/18=3
INT 8 to 14 = 1, 15/16=2 17/18=3
WIS 8 to 14 = 1, 15/16=2 17/18=3
CHA 6 to 13 = 1, 13/14=2 15/16=3(Max)


Suckie point spread but I rolled quite a few of them.

"SneakySlime" I think his name is lol

He will be a 10 Rogue/8 Wizard/2 Fighter type person.
LevelUp: 1 level rogue (given) then 2 Fighter, then 8 Wizard and 4 more Rogue.

Dodge, Mobility, Spring Attack, Power Attack, Cleave, Greater Cleave, mental toughness, extend spell(?) at current level. Next feat will be Combat Expertise and then Whirlwind Attack!!!

Can you say: "Cleave" ( +1[W] damage) and then "Eldritch Strike" (+1[W] damage) then "Greater Cleave" (+2[W] damage) and then "Eldritch Tempest" (+2[W] damage to all nearby enemies and knocking them prone for 1 second) and then "Whirlwind Attack" (+4[W] damage)? That's +10[W] damage in a few seconds!

My problem is that "I can't get the timing" just right at the moment since I haven't had a lot of time and 'he' doesn't have whirlwind atm either lol But with those first 4 it's pretty tough as it is for the mobs! Trying to use AutoAttack and clicking on all that didn't work for me as I thought it wouldn't; as it didn't work in the past either. OH! Switching to Light Pick's really helps!

Imagine this: "+150 Damage with a skull icon" looks sweeter than grandma's Sweet Iced Tea! LOL OH! I forgot - Weapon Finesse too!

I still like "Exploiters" (Ranger/Monk/Rogue) because I found that by remaining Centered with weapons is a good thing - especially since it gives you another 'attack' option! UMD is GOOD!

Thinking about it - I've been rolling so many Icon's this maybe on a BladeForged (Fighter/Eldritch Knight), or maybe the PDK (Fighter/Eldritch Knight)...

[FranOhmsford]

Just give them the free Human feat already and make them a desirable race for anyone who either:-

Splashes rogue or
Like the look or
Is feat starved or
Doesn't plan to spend any AP's on race

Simple

Not gonna happen unless the Devs also get off their high horse and give Shadar-Kai some PROPER Hair Styles!

Currently they're worse than H-Elves!

EDIT: About the only HALF-decent look currently is the Sinead O'Connor!