why are Shadar-kai so gimped

[Livmo]

I have looking again at the Iconic Heroes, and I just wonder why Shadar-kai are so gimped ?

they lose the extra Human feat at level 1, and they only get one ability enhancement when all other races get 2. What makes them worth taking ?

Can't see it myself atm


Clarice

I have 3 Shadar's, but my fav is a custom pure build with no splash. I had to adapt my play style for the particulars of them. The custom is L16 banking xp. I'm having allot of fun with this toon.

My fav. part is my UMD, so I can use scrolls and wands. I can solo this toon quite well by pumping UMD for self-heals and such. One change in tactics I use, is to get the baddies to cluster and then I whip the bejeezus out of them

With the UMD I use Invisible scrolls. If you use the chain whip while invissible it doesn't break the invis. The cool down is a little too long, but I can see why. The chain whip can be very effective. I pair this with the ability to sneak. I'm pleased I can jump now without breaking the sneak. I'm also rolling with Displacement and Blur scrolls.

On a side note, I'm using allot of augments. Especially the yellows for the elemental resists. I have an awesome shortbow and light repeater I put Festival Icy Burst on that are a blast. I have a nice set of rapiers and I'm also dual wielding Envenomed blades depending on the baddies and their DRs.

I'm using a Skullduggary belt (slotted Gift of Master in it), Parasitic Breast Plate with Symbiot, and Shade's Hood. I have a varitety of rings I'm using depending on the situation.

The only place I've had trouble so far is Heroic Elite dragons in ToR. Otherwise GH has been fun. I also did Overgrowth and Murder by Night with just a hire and I was way under level and completed both. Good times.

I'm starting to plan for epics, but I'm having too much fun at L16 to want to level right now. In my opinion they are not gimp. I may or may not change my opinion once I go epic.

0-[====>Shadar-Kai Edit<====]-0

I upgraded the Parasitic Breastplate with Will Save and I forgot to mention that.

[Clemeit]

You start 14 levels ahead of everyone else. What more could you possibly want?

[Irenae]

All iconics tend to be gimped, sure bladeforged is not so bad , but it's not how I want to play. You can't choose an iconics race and it's race tends to be useless on iconics. Morninglord is a good example, it starts with a wizard like stat point build for a cleric? yeah, tends to hurt that iconics are not designed with optimization in mind.

[Jasparion]

As a Shadar-kai monk I love the extra sneak, (I can't stand Halflings).

The AOE chain is icing for me as, contrary to another thread somewhere, it doesn't uncentre you

Chain is complete rubbish. The mobs in EN do double the damage with no save with their chain, the mobs in EE will kill anyone silly enough to stay in range unless they have insane HP (or Dodge - I think).

I cant imagine a time you arent decreasing your DPS - except maybe if someone else has grabbed aggro on a huge pack and you are adding a little bit of damage to each - while the rest of the party kill them.

In terms of player damage vs mob damage, I cant think of any effect where the mobs are so much better at it than the players.

[Qhualor]

im leveling my first Shadar-kai and since I don't know much about them in D&D, I decided to look them up. what I found conflicted with a lot of what we have in DDO http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Shadar-Kai_(3.5e_Race)

usually they are better at trying to keep races and classes pretty close to D&D 3.5 version, but there is just too much of a difference from what im reading. I wonder if it has anything to do with starting out in Eberron and at level 15, but that doesn't make sense either. the starting level is an option and where you start out shouldn't affect the race abilities and what is granted to them. maybe im looking at the wrong source for info?

[fmalfeas]

im leveling my first Shadar-kai and since I don't know much about them in D&D, I decided to look them up. what I found conflicted with a lot of what we have in DDO http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Shadar-Kai_(3.5e_Race)

usually they are better at trying to keep races and classes pretty close to D&D 3.5 version, but there is just too much of a difference from what im reading. I wonder if it has anything to do with starting out in Eberron and at level 15, but that doesn't make sense either. the starting level is an option and where you start out shouldn't affect the race abilities and what is granted to them. maybe im looking at the wrong source for info?

That's a homebrew, not anything official.

[DaSawks]

IMHO Shadar-Kai players are gimped compaired to NPC's. Think I am wrong? Go play with some Shadar-Kai Assassins in epic content. The whorling blade attack is instant death like frog in a blender. Plus, if you take a moment to time the cooldowns for NPC's you will find that it is less than 60 seconds.

[Oliphant]

As for Nothing is hidden, if it didn't need both spot and search to work I would use it as well but as is, I cant think of a way to get BOTH
high enough.

Nothing is hidden only relies on search skill (not spot) but you have to be within spot range. I went weak on spot (56 no buffs) and I maxed search (83 no buffs). With my various skill boosts in quest (90+ search), NiH almost always works for me. I even had relatively weaker spot earlier in the game when my items did not boost spot (think another 20 fewer skill points in spot compared to search) but NiH always worked. The description says it requires a search check and it seems to work based only on a search check. Either way you can get it working in most quests, even ee's.

The epic feat Watcher's Eye relies on spot.

[thegreatneil]

Nothing is hidden only relies on search skill (not spot) but you have to be within spot range. I went weak on spot (56 no buffs) and I maxed search (83 no buffs). With my various skill boosts in quest (90+ search), NiH almost always works for me. I even had relatively weaker spot earlier in the game when my items did not boost spot (think another 20 fewer skill points in spot compared to search) but NiH always worked. The description says it requires a search check and it seems to work based only on a search check. Either way you can get it working in most quests, even ee's.

This is incorrect.
I have personally tested this:
A high spot, bot no search
A high search, but no spot
A high search and spot both.

[ThomasHunter]

Proof that they are human - they do the human dance!!!

[Miow]

Human is just better, that's my opinion. I like the look of mine but it's racial tree feels lacking, i might tr. The chain attack doesn't do much in harder content.

[SealedInSong]

I am a huge proponent of flavor characters--most of mine are just that.

But I can't really justify using Shadar-Kai. I've toyed around with a few builds using them and just deleted them because even on heroic content I could see that almost every other race would've done a better job.

It's sad.

Iriale suggested something good. I think we should give the devs some very nuanced feedback involving LIGHT coding changes to improve Shadar-Kai.

The heavier code changes are really done at their whim and in my observation have nothing to do with player input. Light changes have a much better chance of implementation.

It's a simple matter of the other iconics having unintended synergies as something else besides their default class. Shadar just aren't better at anything they should be better at. And the main thing that could have made them very interesting (abundant step without 12 monk 17fvs etc. Is saddled with a cooldowns so long that its not fun and not worth bothering with as a selling point to make a build out of. The cost of their racials are amazing (morninglord suffers the same problem, sunburst SLA with a 26 second cd for 30ish AP? No thanks)

Well, the shadar kai have a racial tree. Better o worse, but all races have a racial tree

but, where are all shadar-kai racial feats?

See:
Dwarf:
• +2 Constitution, –2 Charisma.
• Weapon Familiarity: Dwarves may treat dwarven axe as martial weapons (meaning you class needs martial weapons to gain Dwarven axe by default, Rogues for example, do not get martial weapons by default), rather than exotic weapons.
• +4 racial bonus on balance ability checks.
• +2 racial bonus on Search checks.
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against poison.
• +2 racial bonus on saving throws against spells.
• +1 racial bonus on attack rolls against orcs and goblinoids.
• +4 dodge bonus to Armor Class against monsters of the giant type.

Elf (and morninglord after the next update)
• +2 Dexterity, -2 Constitution
• Immunity to sleep spells and effects
• +2 saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects
• +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
• Weapon Proficiency: Elves are automatically proficient with the longsword, rapier, longbow, composite longbow, shortbow, and composite shortbow.

Halfling
• +2 Dexterity, –2 Strength
• +1 size bonus to Armor Class
• +1 size bonus on attack rolls
• +4 size bonus on Hide checks
• +2 racial bonus on Jump, Listen, and Move Silently checks.
• +1 racial bonus on all saving throws.
• +2 morale bonus on saving throws against fear: This bonus stacks with the Halfling’s +1 bonus on saving throws in general.
• +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown weapons.
• Carrying capacity is three-quarters of that of a Medium character.
• -4 intimidate penalty for each class size lower (-4 vs. normal, -8 vs. large)

Human and Purple dragon:
• +4 skill points at character creation
• +1 skill point at every level after level 1
• 1 bonus feat at level 1.

Drow:
• +2 Dexterity, +2 Intelligence, +2 Charisma, -2 Constitution
• Immunity to sleep spells and effects
• +2 saving throw bonus against enchantment spells or effects
• Spell Resistance: 10+Character Level
• +2 racial bonus on Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
• Weapon Proficiency: Drow are automatically proficient with the rapiers, shortswords, and shurikens.

Warforged:
• +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma
• Immune to Sleep, Hold Person, Energy Drained, Nauseated, Exhausted, and Paralyzed effects.
• Immune to ability score damage from Natural Poisons, and Natural Diseases but are vulnerable to those that effect wood or metal.
• Warforged gain a +10 racial bonus to saving throws against Magical Poisons and Magical Diseases and do not fail saving throws against them on a roll of a natural 1 (this makes you immune to Magical Poisons and Magical Diseases with a DC of less than 11+your Fortitude save). If you transform into a different type of creature, you will lose these benefits until you return to your Warforged form.
• Immunity to spells targeting a humanoid.
• A Warforged can remain underwater indefinitely (no oxygen bar displayed).
• A Warforged's Composite Plating provides 5% arcane spell failure chance. This plating is not considered natural armor, and it takes the place of body armor. Because of this, the Warforged is prohibited from wearing other kinds of armor, regardless of its class proficiencies. It can still wield shields and other enhancing items such as helmets, boots, trinkets, and jewelry. Feats taken at character creation can upgrade this plating and its type, changing it to either light or heavy armor. See also Mithral Body, Adamantine Body.
• The ability to wear a docent in the slot which other characters use for armor. Magical docents usually provide an enchantment bonus to armor class, and may have other magical enhancements. They also have a cosmetic effect on appearance.
• A Warforged's plating also grants it a special feat which provides a stacking +25% Fortification. When the Warforged is the target of a sneak attack or critical hit, there is a 25% chance for the attack to be negated and the damage to be rolled normally. This effect stacks with Fortification.
• Divine healing spells and potions restore only half as many hit points as normal for a Warforged (this can be increased up to 80% effectiveness with the addition of the Healer's Friend racial enhancement). A warforged's hit points can be restored normally through arcane repair spells and potions, as well as the Lay on hands Paladin ability or the Divine healing cleric enha
Bladeforged has warforged traits and additional traits

Halfelf
• Dilettante feat at level 1.
• +1 racial bonus to Listen, Search, and Spot checks.
• Naturally immune to magical sleep effects.
• +2 racial bonus to Diplomacy, and also gain an additional check for each use of Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate on a separate cooldown timer.
(of course dilettante feat is garbage without a cheap improvement for enhancements, but they have racial traits)

But Shadar-kai has:
• +2 Dexterity
• -2 Charisma

??? it's a joke. They don't have racial traits. Morninglords don't have racial traits now, but devs will fix in the next update. Shadar-kai won't obtain a fix.

please, bug report. Our complains and bug reports have got a fix for morninglords. But shadar-kai need a fix too.

[stoerm]

I'm considering purchasing Shadar-Kai. Without any experience the enhancement tree looks worse than for humans. No healing amp etc. and now it turns out they don't get a 2nd feat at level one. Doesn't look very appealing.

Having now played a Shadar-Kai from 15 to 28, I can say Shadow Jaunt alone makes it a worthwhile race. Dodge bonus, sneak attack and 1% past life bonus to dodge are just gravy. Going Shadar-Kai again!

[Oxarhamar]

Couldn't say gimped or not

They play well as a Mechanic/Artificer build though a can be bit squishie.

Great example: every has been saying the Batistas in Storm the Beaches are tough and it's true but' my Shadarkai Mech/Arti eat them for breakfast on EE by staying above them letting the melee and casters get the trash and just dumping a hail of bolts down on them.

[Purkilius]

Face it people, the game is unbalanced. It's driven by the CoD Head Shot players that make toons like the Moncher and Shiradi Casters, and the devs response is to make quests where the mobs have stupidly high HP and saves which is killing the game for pure classes.

You got it wrong it is the other way around...

[Maelodic]

I posted this in another thread, but I think I post it here:

I ended up going with a Shadar-Kai pure Rogue because of Shadow Jaunt. Shadow Jaunt is so ridiculously core to my playstyle now that any pure Rogue I play in the future will likely have to be Shadar-Kai, but I'll elaborate on that more a bit later.

Assassinate is obviously core to the playstyle- I solo a lot and the ability to stay in stealth is the greatest boon to a solo stealther. Mobs often gather in groups of two and taking them both out with assassinate is a skill very easily mastered- even if they don't come in pairs, assassinating from behind them yields the same result with no detection, while skipping the mobs entirely is also very easy.
You generally want to clear out mobs if it's not inconvenient so you can create a place to hide if needed. Skipping encounters is fine too as long as you are always thinking of safety nets. Playing a solo Rogue in DDO is by far the most satisfying sneak experience I've ever seen, and the amount of things you have to manage is absolutely perfect. It makes it feel more like a craft or art than anything else.

None of my Rogue experience could be possible without Shadow Jaunt specifically, and to a lesser extent, whirling chain and gloom stalker. A Shadar-Kai Rogue is exceptionally more powerful within my playstyle and here is why-

Shadow Jaunt is a fantastic tool for skipping encounters or getting behind groups- only rivaled by a similarly sneaky ninja who has abundant step and (permanent) shadow fade with the right enhancements. The edge that an assassin has over a ninja is that the assassin's insta-kill keeps you stealthed- quivering palm does not. Shadow Jaunt also is the ultimate disengage. Unless a mob has true seeing, you'll be out of there immediately and they're more than likely not going to be able to find you, giving you another shot at what you failed previously.

Whirling Chain is the ultimate hail mary. Popping Uncanny Dodge along with Whirling Chain will save your life when you get caught. And you do occasionally get caught- and caught without Shadow Jaunt. Uncanny Dodge turns you into a dodge tank during it's duration, and Whirling Chain provides you with more tanking ability as well as a great amount of sustained AoE damage to burst down the group you've gathered by being caught. You still have casters and archers to take care of, but you can now move around to do this and won't be followed by a thousand melee mobs.

The Ranger as well as the Monk both have spammable powerful tools of making a mob susceptible to sneak attacks. I've never seen a failed unbalancing strike, even though it does have a save, and ranger's have exposing strike, which is a no-save "hey, you're going to be SA'd to death now" ability. Rogues have the daggers as well as bluff- but these aren't nearly as reliable. This is why Gloom Stalker is great- regardless of whether or not the mob sees you, any attack out of stealth makes them vulnerable to sneak attacks. This has no save, and works on bosses. Going in and out of stealth to trigger this is faster than throwing a dagger or a bluff attempt- rendering the other options useless in a 1v1 situation as they both have saves, and this also triggers on assassinate.

My assassin is my only character than can solo elite Running With Devils at level 16- none of my characters have stunning gear, assassin included, but being able to get through that quest without a horrible and painful death from the Glale's, stalkers, and Wisams is a huge accomplishment for me since every one of my characters have generic gear, and is on their first life.

If Shadar-Kai Rogues did not exist, a Monk would be my choice for sure- but because they do and have an answer for a good amount of the Monk's advantage, an answer for the Ranger's advantage entirely- Whirling Chain, and considerably more sneak attack damage-a Shadar-Kai assassin is the only assassin for me.

I've built Shadar-Kai's just for an abundant step like ability. I'm pretty addicted to it and it usually isn't worth going into Exalted Angel for.
I couldn't imagine building an assassinate based Rogue without Shadar Kai as well- Gloom Stalker is such a ridiculously powerful ability for assassinate- you don't have to worry about agro with Gloom Stalker and just get free assassinates off or free tons-of-sneak-attack on bosses.

The chain is great in heroics or everything except EEs for anything with DR- it bypasses absolutely all DR.

But really, Shadar-Kai is all Gloom Stalker and Shadow Jaunt. These are amazing abilities and if you're playing a pure Rogue, should be heavily considered especially if you want to stealth-zerg quests or have an easy time assassinating.

Shadow Jaunt's 60 second cooldown IS atrocious- but the upgraded 30 second cooldown isn't really that bad to work with.

[cronusdeathspell]

I have to agree, except in my case, I find Gloom Stalker to be the main reason I love the race.

All sneak attack, all the time?

Thank you Sir may I have another!

[eachna_gislin]

Originally Posted by Relem
Face it people, the game is unbalanced. It's driven by the CoD Head Shot players that make toons like the Moncher and Shiradi Casters, and the devs response is to make quests where the mobs have stupidly high HP and saves which is killing the game for pure classes.

You got it wrong it is the other way around...

What is wrong about that post? Are you saying that multiclass builds aren't significantly more powerful than pure class builds? Or that mobs don't have stupidly high hit points and saves? Or that the game isn't imbalanced?

[LuKaSu]

Originally Posted by Relem
Face it people, the game is unbalanced. It's driven by the CoD Head Shot players that make toons like the Moncher and Shiradi Casters, and the devs response is to make quests where the mobs have stupidly high HP and saves which is killing the game for pure classes.



What is wrong about that post? Are you saying that multiclass builds aren't significantly more powerful than pure class builds? Or that mobs don't have stupidly high hit points and saves? Or that the game isn't imbalanced?

Pretty sure he means that the players built their monkchers and shiradi casters in response to the content, instead of the other way around.

[Zentrap]

I have 3 Shadar's, but my fav is a custom pure build with no splash. I had to adapt my play style for the particulars of them. The custom is L16 banking xp. I'm having allot of fun with this toon.

My fav. part is my UMD, so I can use scrolls and wands. I can solo this toon quite well by pumping UMD for self-heals and such. One change in tactics I use, is to get the baddies to cluster and then I whip the bejeezus out of them

With the UMD I use Invisible scrolls. If you use the chain whip while invissible it doesn't break the invis. The cool down is a little too long, but I can see why. The chain whip can be very effective. I pair this with the ability to sneak. I'm pleased I can jump now without breaking the sneak. I'm also rolling with Displacement and Blur scrolls.

On a side note, I'm using allot of augments. Especially the yellows for the elemental resists. I have an awesome shortbow and light repeater I put Festival Icy Burst on that are a blast. I have a nice set of rapiers and I'm also dual wielding Envenomed blades depending on the baddies and their DRs.

I'm using a Skullduggary belt (slotted Gift of Master in it), Parasitic Breast Plate with Symbiot, and Shade's Hood. I have a varitety of rings I'm using depending on the situation.

The only place I've had trouble so far is Heroic Elite dragons in ToR. Otherwise GH has been fun. I also did Overgrowth and Murder by Night with just a hire and I was way under level and completed both. Good times.

I'm starting to plan for epics, but I'm having too much fun at L16 to want to level right now. In my opinion they are not gimp. I may or may not change my opinion once I go epic.

0-[====>Shadar-Kai Edit<====]-0

I upgraded the Parasitic Breastplate with Will Save and I forgot to mention that.

I just like my abundant step every 30 seconds that can save your ass... Else yes the tree is weak.