Cetus: The Supreme Bladeforged Fighter

[zwiebelring]

I used it if I wore planar set. But for maximum efficency I needed to craft more greensteel accesoires but that's too tedious for me, so I switched to esos and live with that little flaw in dps.

[OsharanToo]

I thought I saw him with an Ubber new build on a guild or fan site. I can't find it now. Anyone know if he is active anywhere else?

Yes he is, but I can't give you a link or anything. I've been told mentioning or linking that particular fan site on the DDO forums is also an infractible/bannable offense.

[Osharan_Tregarth]

Yes he is, but I can't give you a link or anything. I've been told mentioning or linking that particular fan site on the DDO forums is also an infractible/bannable offense.

OG. I really wish the DDO Forums would remember who the heck I am.

[Cetus]

Hey folks =D

The part in bold is incorrect. .5W increase from WA for something like Cleaver is 1d8 which averages about 4.5 damage per swing. That is more than twice as good as the damage per swing added for +4 str.

For Pinion, Needle, Nightmare, or Breach WA adds 1d6 which would be an average of 3.5 per shot - again nearly twice as good as +4 str.

But it does boil down to whether you want more dps, or +2 to reflex saves and a few more HPs and AC.

In the opening post I outlined a build with a specific gearset, a member of which was the ESOS. So, for that weapon my assessment for weapons attachment remains correct.

1d6 = 3.5 average damage vs +4 str = 3 dmg

If you want to consider this enhancement in the context of a different weapon, you can - however, its misleading to call the statement in bold incorrect since ESOS is the weapon I'm talking about.

You do bring up a good point however, for those who choose to use an alternate weapon that has a higher base damage, weapon attachment may be more useful from a purely DPS standpoint (tactics, hitpoints, and reflex/fort saves are still aspects of tensers that need to be weighed however).

If extra AP are spent to gain the additional seeker bonus from WA, then it begins to surpass the DPS benefit of tensers.

[NaturalHazard]

Wb

[Nodoze]

Cetus, Did you ever try the 2 Fvs or 2 Cleric splash on the BF to see if you liked it more? From memory in the human thread you were thinking that the lower saves may still be decent and offset by BF immunities such that it may be worth it for higher DPS.

[Cetus]

Cetus, Did you ever try the 2 Fvs or 2 Cleric splash on the BF to see if you liked it more? From memory in the human thread you were thinking that the lower saves may still be decent and offset by BF immunities such that it may be worth it for higher DPS.

I already tried it on lamaland - it takes forever to get the vulnerable stack to 20 and an electric imbue archer/vulnerable WW weapon/electric sorc will get the stack much quicker anyway.

2 pally still wins

[Nodoze]

I already tried it on lamaland - it takes forever to get the vulnerable stack to 20 and an electric imbue archer/vulnerable WW weapon/electric sorc will get the stack much quicker anyway.

2 pally still wins

If you go WarPriest & are willing/able to swap weapons briefly you can get the Vulnerable stacks to max at 20 in as fast as 17 seconds beating any of them...

Technically I haven't seen a single AA actually get Vulnerable stacks to 20 let alone keep them at 20 stacks though a Monkcher should be able to at least get them to 20 (though maybe not keep them there).

An Air Savant can get it there slower in many cases but may have mana issues keeping it indefinitely and may not be able to at all on the Truthful One considering the Truthful One is immune to electricity.

The WarPriest splash should be able to get at least 15% more sustained DPS over the Paladin version on any sustained fight on a Boss where it matters (not counting trash). After those first 17 seconds you should be getting ~+18% damage regardless of whatever weapon(s) you use from that point forward (except where you roll a 1 on your Smite Weakness which, coupled with the weapon swap/stack-build-up/re-swap, is why I rounded it down to 15% to be conservative/realistic)...

[Cetus]

If you go WarPriest & are willing/able to swap weapons briefly you can get the Vulnerable stacks to max at 20 in as fast as 17 seconds beating any of them...

Technically I haven't seen a single AA actually get Vulnerable stacks to 20 let alone keep them at 20 stacks though a Monkcher should be able to at least get them to 20 (though maybe not keep them there).

An Air Savant can get it there slower in many cases but may have mana issues keeping it indefinitely and may not be able to at all on the Truthful One considering the Truthful One is immune to electricity.

The WarPriest splash should be able to get at least 15% more sustained DPS over the Paladin version on any sustained fight on a Boss where it matters (not counting trash). After those first 17 seconds you should be getting ~+18% damage regardless of whatever weapon(s) you use from that point forward (except where you roll a 1 on your Smite Weakness which, coupled with the weapon swap/stack-build-up/re-swap, is why I rounded it down to 15% to be conservative/realistic)...

In theory, with the frostbite blades swapped in, you'd probably dish out marginally better damage - and its marginal only because you have to make up for the rather substantial DPS loss by removing the ESOS briefly, and paying the opportunity cost of having to use smite asap. I don't like that you need to interrupt your more effective attacks (i.e., fists of iron, momentum swing, earth attacks) to keep refreshing the vulnerable stacks with the smite.

In practice, its a nightmare to micromanage your character like that - and for my purposes, someone in party will always contribute a vulnerable stack to bosses that matter. Its not worth losing all the pally perks imo.

[korsat]

Hey cetus, mind sharing a video? I'm sure you had already posted it but I got lost on post pages.

How much your recon hits you for?

Nice work btw, looks solid and less clikies intensive compared with old one.

Thanks!

[Nodoze]

In theory, with the frostbite blades swapped in, you'd probably dish out marginally better damage - and its marginal only because you have to make up for the rather substantial DPS loss by removing the ESOS briefly, and paying the opportunity cost of having to use smite asap. I don't like that you need to interrupt your more effective attacks (i.e., fists of iron, momentum swing, earth attacks) to keep refreshing the vulnerable stacks with the smite.

In practice, its a nightmare to micromanage your character like that - and for my purposes, someone in party will always contribute a vulnerable stack to bosses that matter. Its not worth losing all the pally perks imo.

Press Z on your next Raid Boss or long boss fight on hard EE quest and confirm your assumption. If you lock the Examine window it should not disappear if you switch targets or use any gear during the fight...

I did that on a FoT raid this Tuesday and I was the only one providing Vulnerable stacks to the Boss giving the entire RAID +20% damage (I was using the DeBuffer build & also Rebuking it for an additional +25% physical damage giving everyone upto +45% physical damage + other debuffs).

Also, confirm your attack rotation as 15 seconds is a long time and I suspect you can fit 1 smite every 15 seconds without losing a better attack as Smite is better than a regular swing and gives all your other attacks an average +18%...

17 seconds to build up is not a big loss compared to +18% over the rest of a long fight.... The swap is nothing compared to the complexity you have accomplished with your swap_to_scroll_&_triple-pos_stick+then_scoll+then_switch_back sequence you have mastered on your human version... You will roll a one once every 20 Smites which is one per every 5 minutes and the weapon swap to get back to 20 would only be about 5 seconds each time you roll a 1. That would be ~ on average:

- 5 minute fight: 23 seconds and 2 full-swaps (assume 4 seconds) for ~4:33 seconds of +18% damage;
- 10 minute fight: 28 seconds and 3 full-swaps (assume 6 seconds) for ~9:26 seconds of +18% damage;

During those build-ups you are not doing 0 damage but even if you were I think you would be significantly ahead (~7% in a 5 min fight & ~11% in a 10 min fight even if you did 0 damage in the build ups).

[Cetus]

Press Z on your next Raid Boss or long boss fight on hard EE quest and confirm your assumption. If you lock the Examine window it should not disappear if you switch targets or use any gear during the fight...

This is not an assumption, I know who I run with

I did that on a FoT raid this Tuesday and I was the only one providing Vulnerable stacks to the Boss giving the entire RAID +20% damage (I was using the DeBuffer build & also Rebuking it for an additional +25% physical damage giving everyone upto +45% physical damage + other debuffs).

Also, confirm your attack rotation as 15 seconds is a long time and I suspect you can fit 1 smite every 15 seconds without losing a better attack as Smite is better than a regular swing and gives all your other attacks an average +18%... Fists of iron refreshes every 3 seconds...within those three seconds cleaves and momentum swings are used - all of which are FAR better than the crappy smite attack - no point in even trying to sell it as an attack on its own, its only use is to charge vulnerable stacks

17 seconds to build up is not a big loss compared to +18% over the rest of a long fight.... The swap is nothing compared to the complexity you have accomplished with your swap_to_scroll_&_triple-pos_stick+then_scoll+then_switch_back sequence you have mastered on your human version... Yes, you are correct - that is also why I gravitated away from it when bladeforged came out, it was definitely annoying to heal scroll like that but had no choice You will roll a one once every 20 Smites which is one per every 5 minutes and the weapon swap to get back to 20 would only be about 5 seconds each time you roll a 1. That would be ~ on average:

- 5 minute fight: 23 seconds and 2 full-swaps (assume 4 seconds) for ~4:33 seconds of +18% damage;
- 10 minute fight: 28 seconds and 3 full-swaps (assume 6 seconds) for ~9:26 seconds of +18% damage;

During those build-ups you are not doing 0 damage but even if you were I think you would be significantly ahead (~7% in a 5 min fight & ~11% in a 10 min fight even if you did 0 damage in the build ups).

Some comments in red

Again, in theory I agreed with you that it would do better damage. In practice however, it simply won't because

a) losing the pally saves will hurt your survival
b) Esos swapping is going to be a difficult damage loss to compensate for - especially since you are using TWF without any TWF feats
c) your 17 seconds are both theoretical AND an average (I haven't seen any evidence for this figure by the way nor the circumstances under which you tested it)
d) Micromanagement has an opportunity cost, including inevitable loss of cleaves/fists/momentum swings as you are in the middle of the action
e) In my case, I usually have an archer or sorc who stacks up the vulnerable anyway and
f) There will be a wyrm wrought crafting weapon that will allow vulnerable stacking as well.

Given those reasons against it, I cannot recommend the 2 cleric splash.

[Cetus]

Press Z on your next Raid Boss or long boss fight on hard EE quest and confirm your assumption. If you lock the Examine window it should not disappear if you switch targets or use any gear during the fight...

This is not an assumption, I know who I run with

I did that on a FoT raid this Tuesday and I was the only one providing Vulnerable stacks to the Boss giving the entire RAID +20% damage (I was using the DeBuffer build & also Rebuking it for an additional +25% physical damage giving everyone upto +45% physical damage + other debuffs). rebuke is irrelevant information here, since we're talking about vulnerable

Also, confirm your attack rotation as 15 seconds is a long time and I suspect you can fit 1 smite every 15 seconds without losing a better attack as Smite is better than a regular swing and gives all your other attacks an average +18%... Fists of iron refreshes every 3 seconds...within those three seconds cleaves and momentum swings are used - all of which are FAR better than the crappy smite attack - no point in even trying to sell it as an attack on its own, its only use is to charge vulnerable stacks

17 seconds to build up is not a big loss compared to +18% over the rest of a long fight.... The swap is nothing compared to the complexity you have accomplished with your swap_to_scroll_&_triple-pos_stick+then_scoll+then_switch_back sequence you have mastered on your human version... Yes, you are correct - that is also why I gravitated away from it when bladeforged came out, it was definitely annoying to heal scroll like that but had no choice You will roll a one once every 20 Smites which is one per every 5 minutes and the weapon swap to get back to 20 would only be about 5 seconds each time you roll a 1. That would be ~ on average:

- 5 minute fight: 23 seconds and 2 full-swaps (assume 4 seconds) for ~4:33 seconds of +18% damage;
- 10 minute fight: 28 seconds and 3 full-swaps (assume 6 seconds) for ~9:26 seconds of +18% damage;

During those build-ups you are not doing 0 damage but even if you were I think you would be significantly ahead (~7% in a 5 min fight & ~11% in a 10 min fight even if you did 0 damage in the build ups).

Some comments in red

Again, in theory I agreed with you that it would do better damage. In practice however, it simply won't because

a) losing the pally saves will hurt your survival
b) Esos swapping is going to be a difficult damage loss to compensate for - especially since you are using TWF without any TWF feats
c) your 17 seconds are both theoretical AND an average (I haven't seen any evidence for this figure by the way nor the circumstances under which you tested it)
d) Micromanagement has an opportunity cost, including inevitable loss of cleaves/fists/momentum swings as you are in the middle of the action
e) In my case, I usually have an archer or sorc who stacks up the vulnerable anyway and
f) There will be a wyrm wrought crafting weapon that will allow vulnerable stacking as well.

Given those reasons against it, I cannot recommend the 2 cleric splash.

[Nodoze]

Ultimately, IIRC, this was originally your hunch/idea and I believe your original intuition was right that the overall DPS is higher. Testing on Lamina without the same combo I mentioned is not the same. And testing on Lamina is not the same as testing on live (my testing has been on live).

Some additional things you may have said previously (or others in these threads and other threads may have said) that also help convince me you were likely originally right:

• I was actually thinking a FvS-2 splash instead of Cleric-2 splash for the better saves and more SP.

• DPS-wise Divine Might is no longer tied to turns but instead SP (which could be good or bad depending on the players resources). With the right gear/sp-pots the WarPriest Variant can essentially be endless while the turn based upon simply cannot so the WarPriest variant would win in an endurance DPS scenario.

• DPS-wise the change also permanently frees up for another offensive twist that could further contribute to DPS whether you plan to shrine in a quest or not (not sure how to estimate that % increase nor what scenarios it fits overall).

• The 7 AP spent in WarPriest are arguably better than the 7 AP in KotC.

My comments to your comments are in red.

...
Again, in theory I agreed with you that it would do better damage. In practice however, it simply won't because

a) losing the pally saves will hurt your survival
IIRC your original gut was that with the BF immunities and still decent saves the build would be fine if the DPS increase was worth it. You are the better judge than I am of that and if you were originally wrong then I agree this would not be advisable. I likely have less play time overall than you and for sure by far less EE experience as am more of a planner/strategist/researcher than a fighter and typically 6 box alone when not with one or more of my 5 kids (I try to keep all 6 in the party together level wise even if a kid is not on).

b) Esos swapping is going to be a difficult damage loss to compensate for - especially since you are using TWF without any TWF feats
Overtime in long boss fights it should be better by at least 10-15% overall though. Otherwise you can just not do it and the build should play the same. Also, not everyone who plays this build has an eSoS. My BF is only 26 and I will not likely ever grind for an eSoS. Multiple people play TWF versions of this build and I personally like TWF so I may LR mine from THF to TWF as well. The good thing for you is that your version is slashing using heavy blades so your swap would be seamless from a centering standpoint. Mine is currently using a Great Axe for Cleaver so the swap would be more painful for me in my current incarnation.

c) your 17 seconds are both theoretical AND an average (I haven't seen any evidence for this figure by the way nor the circumstances under which you tested it)
Actually the 17 seconds is best case but the numbers are not theoretical nor will a few seconds significantly change the increase. I will go back through my notes but from memory in multiple attempts on the practice dummy the range was 17-21 with an average of 19 seconds. Both times I did it on TO on FoT it was within seconds of my second smite so 19 secs was consistent in an actual Raid with my multiple hours of testing on the dummy. In my testing I have to mouse click on my PC stopwatch before starting so those timings are accurate and on the higher side.

d) Micromanagement has an opportunity cost, including inevitable loss of cleaves/fists/momentum swings as you are in the middle of the action
You have more experience then me. When we were fighting the TO there was no other MOBs around so only single target DPS mattered when this would be employed. The smite is an attack with +2W so it isn't totally pidly and only once every 15 seconds for a net +15% may be indeed worth it. I would try to actually test it on live to be sure before dismissing it. Even if it doesn't work for you it may be great for others.

e) In my case, I usually have an archer or sorc who stacks up the vulnerable anyway and
Not when solo. Neither can do it faster in testing (I tested all the options). Based on testing I have doubts that an AA can do it at all though I think a Monkcher can (my Moncher could almost get to 20 stacks but then they faded quickly). An Air Savant may not be able to do it at all on the TO if the TO is indeed immune to electricity and even if he could get TO 20% Vulnerable his personal DPS would be very low...

f) There will be a wyrm wrought crafting weapon that will allow vulnerable stacking as well.
When/if this makes it live then I will try to test them and let you know thoughts and how that changes things if any.

Given those reasons against it, I cannot recommend the 2 cleric splash.
2 FvS splay may be better

In the end no one will know unless they try it on live. I also thought that there would be more leverage of vulnerable but so far I haven't seen it fully leveraged yet. I have been doing examine on boss fights from 20-25 and was expecting to see it already leveraged and my efforts in vain but haven't seen much and when used it wasn't getting maxed. I also assumed that an AA let alone a Monkcher would more easily get to full 20 stacks and sustain them better over time but even with the Monkcher that didn't bear out even in controlled/optimal circumstances. If you actually examine closely you may be surprised (I was).

Anyway. Thanks for the build as it shines either way. In the end this is certainly not about me and even though it is your original build it even isn't all about you either as this is a forum and many people are using the build and there are likely multiple variants and others may find this testing useful.

At this point I am still sticking with the original Cetus gut instinct and still think your were originally right & try for most DPS (unless indeed this change makes the build a regular soul stone). While working on my other builds I will try to carve out some time to get my BF to cap & geared and prove you were right.

Either way you win as you were either right to begin with or are right now (or both are right depending on content/playstyle/goals/gear/team-makeup).

[Cetus]

Ultimately, IIRC, this was originally your hunch/idea and I believe your original intuition was right that the overall DPS is higher. Testing on Lamina without the same combo I mentioned is not the same. And testing on Lamina is not the same as testing on live (my testing has been on live).

Some additional things you may have said previously (or others in these threads and other threads may have said) that also help convince me you were likely originally right:

• I was actually thinking a FvS-2 splash instead of Cleric-2 splash for the better saves and more SP.

• DPS-wise Divine Might is no longer tied to turns but instead SP (which could be good or bad depending on the players resources). With the right gear/sp-pots the WarPriest Variant can essentially be endless while the turn based upon simply cannot so the WarPriest variant would win in an endurance DPS scenario.

• DPS-wise the change also permanently frees up for another offensive twist that could further contribute to DPS whether you plan to shrine in a quest or not (not sure how to estimate that % increase nor what scenarios it fits overall).

• The 7 AP spent in WarPriest are arguably better than the 7 AP in KotC.

My comments to your comments are in red.


In the end no one will know unless they try it on live. I also thought that there would be more leverage of vulnerable but so far I haven't seen it fully leveraged yet. I have been doing examine on boss fights from 20-25 and was expecting to see it already leveraged and my efforts in vain but haven't seen much and when used it wasn't getting maxed. I also assumed that an AA let alone a Monkcher would more easily get to full 20 stacks and sustain them better over time but even with the Monkcher that didn't bear out even in controlled/optimal circumstances. If you actually examine closely you may be surprised (I was).

Anyway. Thanks for the build as it shines either way. In the end this is certainly not about me and even though it is your original build it even isn't all about you either as this is a forum and many people are using the build and there are likely multiple variants and others may find this testing useful.

At this point I am still sticking with the original Cetus gut instinct and still think your were originally right & try for most DPS (unless indeed this change makes the build a regular soul stone). While working on my other builds I will try to carve out some time to get my BF to cap & geared and prove you were right.

Either way you win as you were either right to begin with or are right now (or both are right depending on content/playstyle/goals/gear/team-makeup).

Heh, well we're really discussing incredibly subtle differences - either build will work amazing. I just can't justify using the vulnerable thing with so many other sources out there, i'd rather jump into groups of mobs and cleave them away knowing that I have the saves to back up my aggressive playstyle.

I am however...currently tinkering with 12 fighter / 6 ranger / 2 pally/fvs - stay tuned for an updated perspective =D

[Cetus]

Hey cetus, mind sharing a video? I'm sure you had already posted it but I got lost on post pages.

How much your recon hits you for?

Nice work btw, looks solid and less clikies intensive compared with old one.

Thanks!

I'll be working on a few shortly - knocking out the last of my epic completionist / triple bladeforged + PDK past lives

[Nodoze]

Heh, well we're really discussing incredibly subtle differences - either build will work amazing. I just can't justify using the vulnerable thing with so many other sources out there, i'd rather jump into groups of mobs and cleave them away knowing that I have the saves to back up my aggressive playstyle.

I am however...currently tinkering with 12 fighter / 6 ranger / 2 pally/fvs - stay tuned for an updated perspective =D

Fair enough. Look forward to seeing the results of your tinkering. Thanks again for the great builds and I really enjoy playing it though sadly I may have to admit that I actually enjoy reading/thinking about it & the mechanics & dynamics of party/raid interaction just as much as actually playing it.

[Cetus]

Fair enough. Look forward to seeing the results of your tinkering. Thanks again for the great builds and I really enjoy playing it though sadly I may have to admit that I actually enjoy reading/thinking about it & the mechanics & dynamics of party/raid interaction just as much as actually playing it.

Well, nevermind - I need like a 100 action points to make that ranger build work, heh. No way its gonna come close to the monk version.

[Nodoze]

Well, nevermind - I need like a 100 action points to make that ranger build work, heh. No way its gonna come close to the monk version.

Understood. I had multiple build ideas that I tried with Ranger as I like the TWF and the free feats and being able to dump dex but also kept running into AP issues. In most cases I either ended up going fighter and picking the feats up manually or focusing on melee or ranged on other paths. Sad because I like Rangers thematically/historically.

[Nightmanis]

Well, nevermind - I need like a 100 action points to make that ranger build work, heh. No way its gonna come close to the monk version.

Wait, were you planning a dual wield build or something??