Help me find the Highest Possible Overall Saves (Heroic - Self Buffed Only)

[Failedlegend]

So yeah its about that time again, my brain is itching to solve another mystery...this is whats the highest possible overall saves a single character can achieve based solely on class features, stats and feats IOW no equipment, Self cast spells only and no ED stuff. The only other rule is the character has to be usable...not super powerful just usable otherwise things just get ridiculous.

Oh and because this is my thread I'm banning Bullheaded,Discipline,Great Fortitude, Great Fortitude,Iron Will ,Lightning Reflexes,Luck of Heroes,Resist Poison and Snake Blood because nobody would ever actually waste a feat slot on those.

Now I could be way off but at the moment I'm thinking a Paladin/Monk (Monks get fantastic saves and Grandmaster of Water and Paladins get Divine Grace and their Aura to boost them even more) with primary stats Wis/Dex/Con (Will, Reflex and Fort respectively) with a decent Cha (To fuel divine grace) and a focus on Sacred Defender (partially because it allows you to add a bunch more +Xs to your various saves but also because your gonna be a pretty tough cookie may as well spec to be able to tank).

Not really sure what to do with the final level so I took 1 fighter for an extra feat to fit in GTWF. Race wise Halfling was chosen for bonus to dex (more reflex, -str does not affect saves) and their core enhancements that boost saves.

Something like this. (Note: First life character and 32pt please stick to that for sake of simplicity)


Current Best

Halfling Monk12/Paladin6/FvS2 (Shintao/Defender)

Dex 16+1(Lvls)+2(Halfling)+5(Tome) = 24 (+7)
Con 16+4(Tome) = 20 (+5)
Wis 16+4(Lvls)+4(Water Stance)+2(Shintao)+4(Tome) = 30 (+10)
Cha 14+2(SaD)+4(Tome) = 20 (+5)

Feats:

1 Dragonmark
3 Resilience
6 Empowered Healing
9 ITWF
12 IC:Bludgeoning
15 GTWF
18 Grandmaster of Forms

Monk Feats

1 TWF
2 Weapon Finesse
3 Light Path
6 Stunning Fist



Reflex

7 Dex Mod
8 Monk Lvls
2 Pally Lvls
2 FvS Lvls
5 Divine Grace
4 Paladin Aura
3 Sacred Defense
4 Resilience
3 Halfling
3 Ninja Spy Agility
1 Resistance Pally Spell
5 Water Stance
47


Fort

5 Con Mod
8 Monk Lvls
5 Pally Lvls
2 FvS Lvls
5 Divine Grace
4 Paladin Aura
3 Sacred Defense
4 Resilience
3 Shintao Conditioning
3 Halfling
1 Resistance Pally Spell
5 Water Stance
48

Will

10 Will Mod
8 Monk Lvls
2 Pally Lvls
2 FvS Lvls
5 Divine Grace
4 Paladin Aura
3 Sacred Defense
4 Resilience
3 Halfling
1 Resistance Pally Spell
3 Henshin Contemplation
5 Water Stance
50

Original Attempt


Halfling Monk13/Paladin6/Fighter1 (Shintao/Defender)

Dex 16+1(Lvls)+2(Halfling)+5(Tome) = 24 (+7)
Con 16+4(Tome) = 20 (+5)
Wis 16+4(Lvls)+4(Water Stance)+2(Shintao)+4(Tome) = 30 (+10)
Cha 14+2(SaD)+4(Tome) = 20 (+5)

Feats:

1 TWF,Stunning Fist
2 Weapon Finesse
3 Dragonmark, Light Path
6 Resilience
9 SF: UMD
12 ITWF, Toughness
15 IC:Bludgeoning
18 Grandmaster of Forms
19 GTWF

Note: Stuff that saves against X (against poison, fear or traps) instead of just a flat bonus to saves don't count because their limited to specific things

Reflex
7 Dex Mod
8 Monk Lvls
2 Pally Lvls
5 Divine Grace
4 Paladin Aura
3 Sacred Defense
4 Resilience
3 Halfling
3 Ninja Spy Agility
1 Resistance Pally Spell
5 Water Stance
45

Fort
5 Con Mod
8 Monk Lvls
5 Pally Lvls
2 Fighter Lvl
5 Divine Grace
4 Paladin Aura
3 Sacred Defense
4 Resilience
3 Shintao Conditioning
3 Halfling
1 Resistance Pally Spell
5 Water Stance
48

Will
10 Will Mod
8 Monk Lvls
2 Pally Lvls
5 Divine Grace
4 Paladin Aura
3 Sacred Defense
4 Resilience
3 Halfling
1 Resistance Pally Spell
3 Henshin Contemplation
5 Water Stance
48

[Failedlegend]

OK I've edited the OP with the saves the build can obtain (I have tested that you'd have enough Enhancement Points btw) is there anything that would get higher overall...or maybe I missed something for this build?

[Wipey]

Missing few most "obvious " sources
6 Resistance Item, 4 GH, 2 Good Luck, Fire finisher...
Exceptional from Omniscience ring, Gnawed Set, Greensteel.
There should be more we forgot.

EDIT : Derp, didn't read your whole post.

[Drwaz99]

Missing few most "obvious " sources
6 Resistance Item, 4 GH, 2 Good Luck, Fire finisher...
Exceptional from Omniscience ring, Gnawed Set, Greensteel.
There should be more we forgot.

EDIT : Derp, didn't read your whole post.

Ninja edited by yourself...

[Failedlegend]

Missing few most "obvious " sources
6 Resistance Item, 4 GH, 2 Good Luck, Fire finisher...
Exceptional from Omniscience ring, Gnawed Set, Greensteel.
There should be more we forgot.

EDIT : Derp, didn't read your whole post.

I also don't have +6 items

I figured items are just a waste of time since everyone has equal access to it.

[Firewall]

Do Epic Levels count? If yes then i would add Bulwark of Defense (since Resilience counts as a defensive stance), Epic Reflexes/Fortitude/Will, or maybe Greater Stat Feats to boost saves. Do Action Boosts to saves from enhancements or races count?

[Failedlegend]

Do Epic Levels count? If yes then i would add Bulwark of Defense (since Resilience counts as a defensive stance), Epic Reflexes/Fortitude/Will, or maybe Greater Stat Feats to boost saves. Do Action Boosts to saves from enhancements or races count?

Naw stuff gets a little nuts in epic

[unbongwah]

AFAIK, there's no way to add DEX to unarmed dmg, unfortunately; and since to-hit ain't worth what it used to be, I don't see much point in going for Finesse.

Also, you will get a bigger boost to saves w/FvS 2 splash instead of ftr; plus you can get Div Might cheaper and add +10 PRR from Warpriest. This also opens up the Heal skill & access to Emp Heal, if you really want halfling DM. There is more to survivability than just high saves, after all.

Quick-n-dirty build attempt:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 28 Lawful Good Halfling Female
(6 Paladin \ 12 Monk \ 2 Favored Soul \ 8 Epic) 
Hit Points: 381
Spell Points: 617 
BAB: 16\16\21\26\26
Fortitude: 30
Reflex: 25
Will: 29

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 28)
Strength             11                    13
Dexterity            15                    19
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence          8                    10
Wisdom               16                    27
Charisma             14                    16

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Level 1 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Healing
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Two Weapon Fighting


Level 2 (Favored Soul)
Feat: (Deity) Follower of the Sovereign Host


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Stunning Fist


Level 4 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light


Level 5 (Paladin)


Level 6 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Maximize Spell


Level 7 (Monk)


Level 8 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Power Attack


Level 10 (Favored Soul)


Level 11 (Monk)


Level 12 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 13 (Monk)


Level 14 (Monk)


Level 15 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Two Weapon Fighting


Level 16 (Monk)
Ability Raise: WIS


Level 17 (Paladin)


Level 18 (Paladin)
Feat: (Selected) Grandmaster of Forms


Level 19 (Paladin)


Level 20 (Paladin)
Ability Raise: WIS
Enhancement: Halfling - Halfling Luck (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Halfling Luck (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Dexterity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Halfling Luck (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Jorasco Dragonmark Focus (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Jorasco Dragonmark Focus (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Halfling - Jorasco Dragonmark Focus (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Halfling - Lesser Dragonmark of Healing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Break Out The Leeches (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Halfling - Greater Dragonmark of Healing (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Bastion of Purity (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Protection from Tainted Creatures (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Hand (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Argent Fist (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Deft Strikes (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Ki Shout (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Exemplar (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Exemplar (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Exemplar (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Iron Skin (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Conditioning (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Conditioning (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Conditioning (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Instinctive Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Wisdom (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Violence Begets Violence (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Shintao (Mnk) - Empty Hand Mastery (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Ninja Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Shadow Veil (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Acrobatic (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Sneak Attack Training (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Ninja Spy (Mnk) - Fists of Iron (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Holy Bastion (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Divine Righteousness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Sacred Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Extra Lay on Hands (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Durable Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Resilient Defense (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Resilient Defense (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Sacred Defender (Pal) - Resilient Defense (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Smite Foe (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Divine Might (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Divine Might (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Divine Might (Rank 3)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Toughness (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Wall of Steel (Rank 1)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Wall of Steel (Rank 2)
Enhancement: Warpriest (Fvs) - Wall of Steel (Rank 3)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Vorpal Strikes


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Improved Martial Arts


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Weapon Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Blinding Speed


Level 28 (Epic)
Ability Raise: WIS
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Elusive Target

Skills: I would max Concentration & Heal (or maybe UMD).

PRR (Earth Stance): 25 Sacred stance + 10 Wall of Steel + 15 GM of Forms + 15 Iron Skin + 15 Standing w/Stone = 80 PRR (~36% dmg reduction)

Would also work well as 16/2/2 split: give up Sacred stance (+25 PRR +3 saves), but gain Quivering Palm, Adamantine Strike, +0.5[W], and +5% run speed. That frees up APs from SD for, say, Enflame or more DPS enhs.

[Failedlegend]

Hmmm...I like the FvS option and it does get saves even higher (+2 to all instead of +2 to fort from fighter)...I don't see why you'd want 2 FvS levels its only +1 to all saves which is the same as Monk and you lose diamond body...the only enhancement that seems good enough is Wall of Steel so its Level+10+6 SR vs. 10 PRR...trust me it's be nice to be on the other side of that caster frustration vs. high SR (Diamond Body plus Pally SR boosts) and being able to pick up empowered healing is nice too...too bad we don't have a diety that favors unarmed that would be nice. As for Heal I refuse to acknowledge its existence...its a stupid change and I won't use it.

**** they still haven't fixed the ninja spy stuff I could have sworn they fixed that when they changed the name to Ninja Training and Advanced Ninja training. In the mean time you could pick up Ranger 2 for Improved Weapon Finesse since it does pretty much the same thing...unless its bugged too.

Sacred Stance you forgot the +125% threat generation whihc is a big help to a Unarmed tank since their intim isnt as good as a shield wielder.

I'll rewrite the build as a Monk13/Pally6/FvS1 and see what it looks like...but not right now...roght now I gotta to go to work

[unbongwah]

SR is difficult if not impossible to keep relevant in higher levels, so I don't see Diamond Body as meaningful, esp. here where it's capped at 23. [If SR was meaningful, we'd all be playing drow pallies.] Better to have the always-on protection of WoS than the only-semi-useful protection of DB, IMHO. Plus unless I'm misreading the advancement table, monk 12->13 doesn't do anything for your saves, while FvS 1->2 is +1 to all.

[Failedlegend]

SR is difficult if not impossible to keep relevant in higher levels, so I don't see Diamond Body as meaningful, esp. here where it's capped at 23. [If SR was meaningful, we'd all be playing drow pallies.] Better to have the always-on protection of WoS than the only-semi-useful protection of DB, IMHO. Plus unless I'm misreading the advancement table, monk 12->13 doesn't do anything for your saves, while FvS 1->2 is +1 to all.

Hmmm...fair enough I've honestly never had a character with SR so I'd have no idea whats a good amount so I'll take your word for it (you do usually know what your talking about even if we don't always agree :P), also yes rechecking monk it seems it doesn't increase...ok lets have a look at Monk12/Pally6/FvS2


Halfling Monk12/Paladin6/FvS2 (Shintao/Defender)

Dex 16+1(Lvls)+2(Halfling)+5(Tome) = 24 (+7)
Con 16+4(Tome) = 20 (+5)
Wis 16+4(Lvls)+4(Water Stance)+2(Shintao)+4(Tome) = 30 (+10)
Cha 14+2(SaD)+4(Tome) = 20 (+5)

Feats:

1 Dragonmark
3 Resilience
6 Empowered Healing
9 ITWF
12 IC:Bludgeoning
15 GTWF
18 Grandmaster of Forms

Monk Feats

1 TWF
2 Weapon Finesse
3 Light Path
6 Stunning Fist



Reflex

7 Dex Mod
8 Monk Lvls
2 Pally Lvls
2 FvS Lvls
5 Divine Grace
4 Paladin Aura
3 Sacred Defense
4 Resilience
3 Halfling
3 Ninja Spy Agility
1 Resistance Pally Spell
5 Water Stance
47


Fort

5 Con Mod
8 Monk Lvls
5 Pally Lvls
2 FvS Lvls
5 Divine Grace
4 Paladin Aura
3 Sacred Defense
4 Resilience
3 Shintao Conditioning
3 Halfling
1 Resistance Pally Spell
5 Water Stance
48

Will

10 Will Mod
8 Monk Lvls
2 Pally Lvls
2 FvS Lvls
5 Divine Grace
4 Paladin Aura
3 Sacred Defense
4 Resilience
3 Halfling
1 Resistance Pally Spell
3 Henshin Contemplation
5 Water Stance
50

[unbongwah]

Hmmm...fair enough I've honestly never had a character with SR so I'd have no idea whats a good amount so I'll take your word for it (you do usually know what your talking about even if we don't always agree :P)

SR is broken for the same reasons the old AC system was broken, namely it doesn't scale high enough in epics - only more so, because most forms of SR don't stack. Remember Spell Pen checks are based on caster / CR level; so once you start facing casters with CR 30+, then SR below 30 is meaningless. I think the highest SR you can get right now would be a drow pally w/+6 SR from racial enhs (assuming they're fixed) and +6 SR from Spellshield Aura; so at lvl 28 that should be 10 + 28 + 6 + 6 = 50. Which still won't do squat against most EE casters, but might be good enough for some protection in EH.

Or you could try playing a drow barb w/Occult Slayer capstone (adds CON mod to your SR), but that seems like the LOLWUT option.

[Failedlegend]

SR is broken for the same reasons the old AC system was broken, namely it doesn't scale high enough in epics - only more so, because most forms of SR don't stack. Remember Spell Pen checks are based on caster / CR level; so once you start facing casters with CR 30+, then SR below 30 is meaningless. I think the highest SR you can get right now would be a drow pally w/+6 SR from racial enhs (assuming they're fixed) and +6 SR from Spellshield Aura; so at lvl 28 that should be 10 + 28 + 6 + 6 = 50. Which still won't do squat against most EE casters, but might be good enough for some protection in EH.

Or you could try playing a drow barb w/Occult Slayer capstone (adds CON mod to your SR), but that seems like the LOLWUT option.

Ok I see what you mean now with SR being pretty useless, I did say I'd take your word for it :P

I think I might actually roll this build up just for fun. Definitely combine it with an Assassin rogue or something.

[Failedlegend]

So I've finally worked out a level order and unfortunately due to BAB concerns as well as Empowered healing and GM of Forms its actuality not very flexible

Halfling Monk12/Paladin6/FvS2 (Shintao/Defender)

Dex 16+1(Lvls)+2(Halfling)+5(Tome) = 24 (+7)
Con 16+4(Tome) = 20 (+5)
Wis 16+4(Lvls)+4(Water Stance)+2(Shintao)+4(Tome) = 30 (+10)
Cha 14+2(SaD)+4(Tome) = 20 (+5)

Monk1-2,Pally3-8, Monk 9- 18,FvS19-20

Skills: Concen, Balance (add Heal if 34pt build w/ extra Int)

Feats:

1 Dragonmark
1M TWF
2M Weapon Finesse
3 Resilience
6 Emp. Healing
9 ITWF
9M Light Path
12M Stunning Fist
12 IC:Bludgeoning
15 GTWF
18 Grandmaster of Forms
ED Grandmaster of Flowers
21 Improved Martial Arts
24 Bulwark of Defense
26 Epic Mage Armor
27 Epic Reflexes
28 Elusive Target

Edit: Discovered a better order...forgot that having 4Pally Qualifies for Emp. Healing and luckily this order gets Monk12 (and Master of Forms) at Lvl 18 allowing you to take Master of Forms as the level 18 feat...funny the build goes from Adept of Forms straight to Grandmaster lol.

Edit2: Added Epic feats for personal reference

[Lifespawn]

easy 16 sorc 2 pally 2 monk pdk with a greatsword or setup as a caster just for shiradi 12 sorc 6 pally 2 monk 14 dex 16 con 14 wis 18 cha all lvl ups into cha saves through the roof gm water just to add more.


melee or caster it all goes into cha to power the divine grace 50 cha endgame really helps with the 20 cha mod bonus.

[Failedlegend]

easy 16 sorc 2 pally 2 monk pdk with a greatsword or setup as a caster just for shiradi 12 sorc 6 pally 2 monk 14 dex 16 con 14 wis 18 cha all lvl ups into cha saves through the roof gm water just to add more.


melee or caster it all goes into cha to power the divine grace 50 cha endgame really helps with the 20 cha mod bonus.

I know this was said before the changes but since Pally saves are going to be reliant on Pally level now (see lammania known issues) it's become very neutered for 2 splashes.

That said they also dropped the defender stance to core 3 of SaD so I'm debating only taking 4 Pally levels (I forget how the new pally saves formula works though) the 4th lvl being for Emp. healing.

Thinking Monk13/Pally4/FvS3...Monk1-2,Pally3-6, Monk 7- 17,FvS18-20

[-Avalon-]

I know this was said before the changes but since Pally saves are reliant on Pally level now it's become very neutered for 2 splashes.

That said they also dropped the defender stance to core 3 of SaD so I'm debating only taking 4 Pally levels (I forget how the new pally saves formula works though) the 4th lvl being for Emp. healing.

Thinking Monk13/Pally4/FvS3...Monk1-2,Pally3-6, Monk 7- 17,FvS18-20

Not sure, and correct me if I am wrong, but did you just necro this thread? lol

That being said, I would like to know highest saves possible in today's world... and how you achieve them, they have always been something of a mystery to me, hear about people saying, "I got my reflex up to 90" or something, and I stare at my 52 and feel like I am apparently not playing the game the right way...

[Failedlegend]

I would like to know highest saves possible in today's world... and how you achieve them, they have always been something of a mystery to me, hear about people saying, "I got my reflex up to 90" or something, and I stare at my 52 and feel like I am apparently not playing the game the right way...

Well if it helps this thread specifically didn't include items or EDs so those 90s come from a build like this with items and EDs I'd assume.

[Lifespawn]

said build above will be changing to 12 sorc 6 pally 2 monk/ftr/fvs haven't decided yet