Monkcher?

[Kaisoni]

Could someone explain to me why monkchers work please?
I understand that they used to be good because 10k stars and manyshot could be used one after another as long as you had the ki for 10k stars. However as far as I can see manyshot and 10k stars now share a cooldown timer.

Is it for the +1 critical multiplier on 19-20 from earth stance that people mostly do it for now? And why do the builds I've looked at still take 10k stars?
I can see the benefit of the extra saves and imp evasion, but people seem to be talking about them being able to do more consistent high damage than other ranged builds.

I feel like I'm missing something obvious here, but could someone explain it to me?

[supott]

Could someone explain to me why monkchers work please?
I understand that they used to be good because 10k stars and manyshot could be used one after another as long as you had the ki for 10k stars. However as far as I can see manyshot and 10k stars now share a cooldown timer.

Is it for the +1 critical multiplier on 19-20 from earth stance that people mostly do it for now? And why do the builds I've looked at still take 10k stars?
I can see the benefit of the extra saves and imp evasion, but people seem to be talking about them being able to do more consistent high damage than other ranged builds.

I feel like I'm missing something obvious here, but could someone explain it to me?

they dont share a cooldown. u can use manyshot right after 10k stars, and can use 10k stars 10 seconds after Manyshot

[cdr]

Is the question "why 12 monk"? Because 12 monk gives more benefits (imp evasion, run speed, free master stance, abundant step) than 12 ranger or 12 fighter with the same damage.

They work because between EDs and the enh revamp, bows can do top-tier sustained damage while not having the drawback of needing to be in melee range. It's been my experience that monkchers usually draw the most aggro (= most dps) in FOT and other raids even without furyshot.

[Therrias]

They "share cooldowns," but not full cooldowns. In other words, using one starts a 30 second cooldown on the other.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Ten_Thousand_Stars

Also, I just edited the wiki's "Martial Arts Feats" page to show 10k stars.

[Rhaphael]

Is the question "why 12 monk"? Because 12 monk gives more benefits (imp evasion, run speed, free master stance, abundant step) than 12 ranger or 12 fighter with the same damage.

12 Ranger:
+2 skill points per level
+3/3/2 saves
1 extra favored enemy
free IPS + free GTWF
+90 spell points
2x 2nd level spells
2x 3rd level spells
access to Empower Healing feat (for cocoon)
BAB progression: 1

12 Monk:
+3 AC
+3/3/3 saves
free improved evasion
free master of forms
+10% run speed
Abundant Step
BAB progression: 0.75

I'd say Ranger is slightly ahead unless I'm missing something. So I'd lean more towards 12 Ranger / 6 Monk than 12 Monk / 6 Ranger myself.

[cdr]

12 Ranger:
+2 skill points per level
+3/3/2 saves
1 extra favored enemy
free IPS + free GTWF
+90 spell points
2x 2nd level spells
2x 3rd level spells
access to Empower Healing feat (for cocoon)
BAB progression: 1

12 Monk:
+3 AC
+3/3/3 saves
free improved evasion
free master of forms
+10% run speed
Abundant Step
BAB progression: 0.75

I'd say Ranger is slightly ahead unless I'm missing something. So I'd lean more towards 12 Ranger / 6 Monk than 12 Monk / 6 Ranger myself.

The only relevant things in that ranger list are IPS and Empower Healing, and 12 monk can pick up both of those (empower healing with a druid or fvs splash). Imp evasion, run speed, and abundant step are unavailable to ranger.

[elg582]

12 Ranger:
+2 skill points per level
+3/3/2 saves
1 extra favored enemy
free IPS + free GTWF
+90 spell points
2x 2nd level spells
2x 3rd level spells
access to Empower Healing feat (for cocoon)
BAB progression: 1

12 Monk:
+3 AC
+3/3/3 saves
free improved evasion
free master of forms
+10% run speed
Abundant Step
BAB progression: 0.75

I'd say Ranger is slightly ahead unless I'm missing something. So I'd lean more towards 12 Ranger / 6 Monk than 12 Monk / 6 Ranger myself.

A few things::

1. Monks get full BAB while centered.
2. There is no "not free" version of improved evasion, and it is HUGE in EE.
3. Poison immunity (not the end of the world, but still...)
4. 12 monk is the break point where slow fall prevents you from taking falling damage, regardless of how far you drop.
5. 2nd and 3rd level ranger spells kind of suck

The free feats are nice, although you are only coming out 1 ahead (since you will have to select master of form with 12 ranger).

I will admit, though, that having abundant step weighs more heavily in monks favor than it really should, but the game is about fun, after all

[Sokól]

The only relevant things in that ranger list are IPS and Empower Healing, and 12 monk can pick up both of those (empower healing with a druid or fvs splash). Imp evasion, run speed, and abundant step are unavailable to ranger.

lets not forget more ki...

[sephiroth1084]

Here's how Manyshot and 10K Stars work.
0 seconds: activate manyshot; 2 minute Manyshot cooldown stars, 30 second 10K Stars cooldown starts
20 seconds: Manyshot expires
30 seconds: 10K Stars available. activate. 60 second 10K Stars cooldown
60 seconds: 10K Stars expires
90 seconds: 10K Stars available. activate. 60 second 10K Stars cooldown
120 seconds: 10K Stars expires. Manyshot available. activate Manyshot

Thus, over a 2 minute period, you get 1 Manyshot and 2 10K Stars, or 1 minute 20 seconds of improved rate of fire, and zero doubleshot, vs. 20 seconds of improved rate of fire and about a minute of doubleshot. If your 10K Stars is reliably loosing two arrows, semi-reliably loosing three, and occasionally giving you four, that's a significant improvement over just having Manyshot and some doubleshot.

I'm not sure how much doubleshot one would need to achieve in order for Manyshot + doubleshot to be even with Manyshot + Ten Thousand Stars.

[Kaisoni]

Thanks very much everyone! It seems the wiki mislead me a little there.

You've beyond answered my question, but I would like one other thing cleared up if you wouldn't mind?

Monkchers are supposedly the best build if you want to stay ranged 100% of the time, but how would you get the Ki to use 10k stars if you do so? Last I heard Ki is only generated on melee attacks, and I doubt you'd earn much through being hit via mountain stance unless they use the passive Ki generation from water stance instead?

I've not really multi-classed much in the past beyond a tempest ranger due to the old capstone being worthless to them, but with the new enhancement system the capstone enhancements seem a bit... lackluster. So the monkcher is looking more and more tempting, which I'm slightly sad about because I'm weird, but at least it'll be a new experience.

[TheLegendOfAra]

5. 2nd and 3rd level ranger spells kind of suck
The free feats are nice, although you are only coming out 1 ahead (since you will have to select master of form with 12 ranger).

This isn't really true. CMW is invaluable for a Ranger Monkcher build. With a decent investment in heal amp I was able to solo EE Tor(everything but the dragons) with my only heals being CMW/CLW's.

Ranger is always a lot more versatile than any monk build.
With an 11Ranger/6Monk/3Pali split you can get full ranged, full TWF, and full THF lines, AND still have enough feats to grab the OC line, emp heal, and master of forms. This isn't possible on the 12 Monk split.

Ranger split also ends at 11 for a monkcher, since you get everything relevant by level 11 anyways.
You could swap those pali levels for fighter levels and gain 2 more free feats as well, but I have no idea what you'd spend them on..

[sephiroth1084]

Thanks very much everyone! It seems the wiki mislead me a little there.

You've beyond answered my question, but I would like one other thing cleared up if you wouldn't mind?

Monkchers are supposedly the best build if you want to stay ranged 100% of the time, but how would you get the Ki to use 10k stars if you do so? Last I heard Ki is only generated on melee attacks, and I doubt you'd earn much through being hit via mountain stance unless they use the passive Ki generation from water stance instead?

I've not really multi-classed much in the past beyond a tempest ranger due to the old capstone being worthless to them, but with the new enhancement system the capstone enhancements seem a bit... lackluster. So the monkcher is looking more and more tempting, which I'm slightly sad about because I'm weird, but at least it'll be a new experience.

Passive Ki generation.

For 8 AP, you can get it from rank 3 of Henshin's Contemplation enhancement, can get it as a twist with rank 3 of Grandmaster of Form's Enlightenment, can turn it on when needed by switching to Ocean stance III or IV, and can get some when sneaking with Ninja's 3rd rank of Stealthy. There are a couple of other ways, but they're kind of out of reach for a monkcher. Even with just +1, you can keep enough Ki for several 10K Stars uses after entering a quest or shrining. The key is to get your Concentration up so that you have a large starting stable Ki pool. Somewhere in the 50-80 range is about right (my monkcher hasn't been able to fit in a +Concentration item yet, so his is in the lower end of that range, but it works). With even just 1 point of regen, you're earning enough Ki to slowly build up to sets of 20 Ki in reserve for 10K Stars.

Like so:
0 seconds, 50 Ki, use Manyshot
6 seconds, 51 Ki
12 seconds, 52 Ki
18 seconds, 53 Ki
20 seconds, Manyshot expires
24 seconds, 54 Ki
30 seconds, 55 Ki, 10K Stars ready and activated, drop to 35 Ki
36 seconds, 36 Ki
42 seconds, 37 Ki
48 seconds, 38 Ki
54 seconds, 39 Ki
60 seconds, 40 Ki, 10K Stars expires, 30 second cooldown
As you can see, every 30 seconds you're gaining 5 Ki. So, over that 2 minute cycle I posted previously, you would earn 20 Ki and expend 40.

That will keep you going for a bit. The higher your starting value, the longer you can go.

Now, add to that Ki gained from being hit while in Earth stance, swapping to Ocean when buffing, after shrining, waiting, moving more than a short distance between fights, etc... And you can keep it flowing. Also, don't forget that you have 2 Meditations per rest--I tend to use these while everyone is buffing, or when waiting for a lengthy spawn or event to finish up. If the party starts moving, get up and go, even if you haven't run through your whole meditation, or, if they're not a very fast group, or you know they've got some ground to cover before reaching anything you're needed for, sit there a little while longer then use your superior speed to catch up. Even use Abundant Step (if you've got 12 monk levels)--if you earn an extra 25 or 30 Ki while meditating, spending 10 or even 20 to Abundant step is still a net gain for you. Also, don't forget to hop into Ocean when you meditate! And stealth if you have the Ninja spy enhancement!

Occasionally, you will run out of Ki--in long fights where you aren't getting hit much (such as if you are kiting), or if you've been using Abundant Step a lot, or if you decided to spend some Ki to buff your party with a finishing move (I only do this on rare occasions). In those circumstances, you can either just keep on using ranged attacks, or swap to melee. Most of the time I keep shooting, but I always keep a decent set of wraps on me and hotbarred so I can wade in quickly. 6 ranger levels (my preference for a monkcher build) means that I have ITWF, so my melee isn't too bad. If you are set-up to go for Overwhelming Critical, you'll also have the Str, Power Attack, and two Cleaves to contribute significantly in melee. Personally, I tend to swap to Sun stance, run in and throw off enough punches to get my Ki up to 20 so I can fire off another 10K Stars, because I really don't want to be meleeing.

I've run the character with as much as 4 passive Ki regen (Contemplation, Enlightenment, Ocean, and Stealthy), and found it to be overkill unless I was using Shadow Fade, which is a worthwhile enhancement, but it competes for your limited resource, and I eventually ditched it, feeling that it just wasn't important enough.

[cdr]

This isn't really true. CMW is invaluable for a Ranger Monkcher build. With a decent investment in heal amp I was able to solo EE Tor(everything but the dragons) with my only heals being CMW/CLW's.

Ranger is always a lot more versatile than any monk build.
With an 11Ranger/6Monk/3Pali split you can get full ranged, full TWF, and full THF lines, AND still have enough feats to grab the OC line, emp heal, and master of forms. This isn't possible on the 12 Monk split.

Ranger split also ends at 11 for a monkcher, since you get everything relevant by level 11 anyways.
You could swap those pali levels for fighter levels and gain 2 more free feats as well, but I have no idea what you'd spend them on..

I'm mystified why you would want either of full TWF or full 2HF on a ranged, much less both. Also mystified why you would want CMW over the half-dozen insane monk-exclusive abilities.

[TheLegendOfAra]

I'm mystified why you would want either of full TWF or full 2HF on a ranged, much less both. Also mystified why you would want CMW over the half-dozen insane monk-exclusive abilities.

Because I like options and diversity in a build. I also don't like being 100% Ranged, 100% of the time. I like to have the option when I need it, but I like to be able to melee at the same time just as well. So, Why not pick up the full TWF line for free, to dual wield Celestia's when I need to break melee DR or tank the Truthful One, the full THF line when I feel like soloing EE's in LD for fun, and have the option to be 100% ranged if I need to be in an EE when sh*t hits the fan.

And I wouldn't trade just CMW for all those monk abilities(All 3 of them that matter.)
I would trade it to have a different build than every other monkcher in the game. I've seen practically nothing but 12Monk/6Ranger/2whatever Monkchers for about 3 years now, and I don't feel the need to jump on the bandwagon when my Ranger can do almost everything that monk build can do, and many that it can't.

When you only really play one toon like I do, it's nice to have a build that can do, and play pretty much anything at any time.

tl;dr Monk just doesn't offer as much diversity in a build that Ranger does. It's simply not as fun.

[sephiroth1084]

Because I like options and diversity in a build. I also don't like being 100% Ranged, 100% of the time. I like to have the option when I need it, but I like to be able to melee at the same time just as well. So, Why not pick up the full TWF line for free, to dual wield Celestia's when I need to break melee DR or tank the Truthful One, the full THF line when I feel like soloing EE's in LD for fun, and have the option to be 100% ranged if I need to be in an EE when sh*t hits the fan.

And I wouldn't trade just CMW for all those monk abilities(All 3 of them that matter.)
I would trade it to have a different build than every other monkcher in the game. I've seen practically nothing but 12Monk/6Ranger/2whatever Monkchers for about 3 years now, and I don't feel the need to jump on the bandwagon when my Ranger can do almost everything that monk build can do, and many that it can't.

When you only really play one toon like I do, it's nice to have a build that can do, and play pretty much anything at any time.

tl;dr Monk just doesn't offer as much diversity in a build that Ranger does. It's simply not as fun.

You have some very different build goals than most people.

[cdr]

I guess if you only have one character that sort of makes sense? Me, if I want to LD solo through an EE, I'll go switch to my 2HF character (or much more likely, I'll just go switch to my shiradi wiz and make things easy). I'm sure you've realized trying to do 2WF *and* 2HF *and* ranged all at the same time makes you worse at all of them.

[TheLegendOfAra]

You have some very different build goals than most people.

Yep, very true. But just because that is the case, doesn't mean what I build is any less viable than your average Monkcher.
It just takes more time, more gear, and a bit of creativity.

I guess if you only have one character that sort of makes sense? Me, if I want to LD solo through an EE, I'll go switch to my 2HF character (or much more likely, I'll just go switch to my shiradi wiz and make things easy). I'm sure you've realized trying to do 2WF *and* 2HF *and* ranged all at the same time makes you worse at all of them.

Meh, hate casters so Shiradi is out. Don't feel like leveling and gearing more toons than I already have just to have another build to do what my main already does.

Only slightly. It means I won't have max DPS in any one play style. Which isn't something I care about in the least. I do "enough" DPS, and I don't need to squeeze any more out. But, I have years of experience playing all three styles, and I can switch between the three pretty seamlessly. The only time it slows me down is when I want to use a THF weapon besides Syreth, because then I also have to swap out my robes for light armor to make up for the loss of PRR from being centered.

[cdr]

Not saying there's anything wrong with playing however is fun for you. And this is not a difficult MMO, you can do EE without being optimal as long as you know the content. You see "cookie cutter" builds though because some people enjoy building or playing characters as optimized as possible.

[goodspeed]

well improved evasion by itself is a major benefit. You get nailed by a couple of quick bust spells and your gonna be running for a corner real fast to save the last of that 900hp that just vanished into the red. Not to bad for making it through traps either.

Which brings us to amazing ability number 2. Abundant step. Things hurt in EE. They hurt alot. And monsters have this thing about gang rushing you with a box in. That now you see me, now you don't button is pretty nice. Also with traps its a pretty feature as well. Hell it was one of the sole determining factors why people actually went air savant.

Then of course shadow viel, and auto stances with the pick up of grandmaster for a feat.

All the while 6 ranger pretty much gives you everything you need to be a ranger except for greater 2 weapon. Even more so now that they took the prerequs out. Now if they gave rangers improbed evasion and some cool stuff like... maybe cure critical and casting positive spell power amp and stuff, then ya, I could see going ranger over monk. But otherwise from stunning fist being THE best melee cc, the bonus's every which way. Monk just wins out with that deep a splash.

[TheLegendOfAra]

well improved evasion by itself is a major benefit. You get nailed by a couple of quick bust spells and your gonna be running for a corner real fast to save the last of that 900hp that just vanished into the red. Not to bad for making it through traps either.

Which brings us to amazing ability number 2. Abundant step. Things hurt in EE. They hurt alot. And monsters have this thing about gang rushing you with a box in. That now you see me, now you don't button is pretty nice. Also with traps its a pretty feature as well. Hell it was one of the sole determining factors why people actually went air savant.

Then of course shadow viel, and auto stances with the pick up of grandmaster for a feat.

All the while 6 ranger pretty much gives you everything you need to be a ranger except for greater 2 weapon. Even more so now that they took the prerequs out. Now if they gave rangers improbed evasion and some cool stuff like... maybe cure critical and casting positive spell power amp and stuff, then ya, I could see going ranger over monk. But otherwise from stunning fist being THE best melee cc, the bonus's every which way. Monk just wins out with that deep a splash.

I agree Improved Evasion is awesome. No doubt about it. But it's not needed really; Evasion and good saves are just as nice.(See Cetus' build, Juggs, Pyrenes, 18/2-16/2/2 Shiradi casters...) I just don't see the point of building for it, at the expense of diversity, when I don't have to have it. But again, that may just be me.

You get Shadow Veil with 6 Monk, and stances as well. You only need to grab one stance with the ranger split, and you have the feats to spare for it.
You can also grab stunning fist if you want.

While 11 ranger doesn't give you a tone more innate's the same way 12 Monk does, it gives you a lot more room to play with what type of build you want to make.
Also IPS, GTW, and 3 more spell slots, and another favored enemy.