Pure S&B Fighter - Could this survive Epic Elite?

[Xianio]

- use Duregar Waraxe instead of First Blood, it has more dps (plus headman's chop in LD), and also makes it easier to setup the rest of your gear, speaking of DPS - LD is probably your only choice if you wanna do reasonably well

LD is my only real choice. I will probably twist into Fury for Sense Weakness but that's really it. However the Duregar Waraxe really is a drop in DPS. While putting out more "raw" power the only way my build keeps up is through doublestrike.

- make at least one greensteel displacement clicky (it is fairly cheap, and once you have one you'll want more, simple as that), it is by far the best way to mitigate incoming damage

Already the plan.

- if you are a fleshie, gather the favor for Silver Flame healing potions, if you don't have the UMD for heal scrolls + (switching to hamp offhander drops your stance, so it's not an option),

I'm cross classing UMD, I don't know if I'll end up with enough. + No it doesn't. You can switch shields without breaking StD stance. My plan was to use Wall of Wood as a swap in for healing.

- test your shield bash on a dummy or something, it used to be buggy as hell, might not fully stack up to 55%

This works now. Already tried and tested to make sure that the old shield bashing mechanic was fixed.

You will lose aggro immediately to *any* other toon that attacks the same mob. This equates to you chasing mobs most of the time. Which means even less dps.

With a 50% increase to my hate gen from stance and 1142 being my "1 round of combat damage" I don't think it will be to much of an issue. While possible, I don't think that most can easily compete with 1713 effective damage for hate gen. - Prior to Epic Destiny material.

--------------------------------
Maths, cuz I promised thems:

Xianio/Cetus

11 Deadly	11 Deadly
26 Strength (62)	57 Strength (86 w2hand)
8 enhance	10 enhance
5 pow.at	10 pow.at
4 Fighter	2 Fighter
4 Avg. Medi bonus (Kensai)	4 Avg. Medi bonus (Kensai)
4 Kensai	6 Kensai
15 av. weapon damage	17.5 av. weapon damage
0 elemental	7 red slot
65 before crits	114.5 before crits
With Crits: 118.05	With Crits: 277.65
With Doublestrike: 225.5 x 1.665 = 196.55	With Doublestrike: 390.6 x 1.18 = 327.62
Glancing blows50%: 31	Glancing blows60%: 60
Shield: 35.79	No shield
Total: 263.34	Total: 387.62

Or, an Xianio having 70% of Cetus' damage. That said, I probably did some math wrong so please check it out. The table format on this is HORRIBLE and I was doing this over 8 hours while at work. :P I probably missed something/screwed something up.

Xianio crit formula 17-18x2 19-20x3 / Bloodletter adds + 52 or 67.5 Formula: (Base+Seeker*Crit*%chance of critting) + Bloodletter. Then add them together plus the base for average damage with crit
Cetus crit formula 13-18x3 19-20x4 / elemental doesn't count Formla: same as above minus bloodletter

Edit'd to correct for some math failures (mostly in the crit area): End result is still something that can hold argo but 30% damage lost is still pretty notable. On the positive side, with regards to physical damage sources: Xianio is significantly tougher than Cetus. Elemental damage is the real concern and Cetus has this much better.

Well, I just did the math with Nightmare + Prowess Trinket the result was another 15 damage, not including successful mind thrusts as I don't know how often they would. This also increases my non-crit damage by a bunch and gives moves the total PRR from 115 to 130 - the cost from the trinket was probably 6 ac though. Hard calls all around.
- Makes the build do 72% of Cetus' damage.

Blerg, another Edit: Added in the Red Slot that I missed on the Nightmare originally and mind thrust being successful. The end result was a HUGE damage increase to 326.75 or 84% of Cetus' damage. The trouble of course being that Mind Thrust (from my understanding) NEVER works in EE content. When it doesn't work it's only - 75%

Seems that First Blood is just subpar. Oh well! I already own Nightmare so that's a plus for me

[maddmatt70]

Why couldn't I cocoon? Does it have a pre-req that I can't reach?

To give some dps perspective here;

First Blood hits pretty hard. Please keep in mind that has 54-79% doublestrike so that's LOTS of hitting power.

It's also getting 3 glancing blows with 50% damage per hit. Which adds up.

Then you've got a shield that can proc (55% per swing) 3 times per 4 swing cycle and Madstone Aegis hits -really- hard for a shield/off hand weapon. (shields get full strength bonus, full deadly bonus etc etc.)

Plus I'm looking forward to getting to hit 2 guys at once with the level 18 StD core enhancement.

The end result? Something that hits closer to a 2 weapon fighting toon with durability closer to that of a tank. Close to both but better than neither.

I have a two weapon fighting 8 ranger 6 monk 6 paladin I leveled first as more of a tank build and second version was less tanky, but able to tank. I can self heal and even heal the group in a limited fashion with the unyielding mass lay on hands. The best asset I have is i get aggro on as many mobs as I can and reduce the damage others in the group take. I can do a lot of quests with other melee without a healer. The real problem with the character even the second version is I can not kill things extremely fast which can mean longer completion times on quests. You will find that your dps will be abysmal.

You will not be able to do what my two weapon fighting character can do to reduce the damage taken in the party because my cocoon can hit more then yours (my positive spell power and amp will almost certainly be much greater), I have lay on hands regenerating so my self healing is so much greater. I also take a lot less damage because I have no save lower then 50 and my reflex save is in the 60s with evasion.

[Xianio]

I have a two weapon fighting 8 ranger 6 monk 6 paladin I leveled first as more of a tank build and second version was less tanky, but able to tank. I can self heal and even heal the group in a limited fashion with the unyielding mass lay on hands. The best asset I have is i get aggro on as many mobs as I can and reduce the damage others in the group take. I can do a lot of quests with other melee without a healer. The real problem with the character even the second version is I can not kill things extremely fast which can mean longer completion times on quests. You will find that your dps will be abysmal.

You will not be able to do what my two weapon fighting character can do to reduce the damage taken in the party because my cocoon can hit more then yours (my positive spell power and amp will almost certainly be much greater), I have lay on hands regenerating so my self healing is so much greater. I also take a lot less damage because I have no save lower then 50 and my reflex save is in the 60s with evasion.

This unfortunately doesn't actually tell me a lot. There's a lot of generic terms here that don't mean much to me. Perhaps you could lay out/link me to your build? I'd love to do a side-by-side comparison; at least for DPS.

I've established that at least in EH I will only do 15% less damage than Cetus' build (ED not included, which could change things). I don't have a 2 weapon comparison yet but if you're willing to provide yours it may be worth considering.

I don't know how much amp you have. Assuming they stack, I have access to 40% from my shield slot and human race enhancements. This is in addition to equipment 114 Healing Spell Power. I don't know if I'll need more but I could always grab Purple Dragon Gauntlets for another 30%, raising me to 70%.

Now, obviously evasion/reflex saves my toon lacks but like I said, I'm planning to have anywhere around 45-55 flat reduction with potentially more from absorption (as needed). I have no idea how much damage your "average" spell does but this is definitely the builds biggest weakness.

-- That said, I'm not trying to show that pure Fighter is better than Anything/Paladin/Monk: Everyone knows that slapping pally and monk on a build = instant power. It's just a question of being strong enough despite lacking the P2W/cheeseball class combo.

[maddmatt70]

This unfortunately doesn't actually tell me a lot. There's a lot of generic terms here that don't mean much to me. Perhaps you could lay out/link me to your build? I'd love to do a side-by-side comparison; at least for DPS.

I've established that at least in EH I will only do 15% less damage than Cetus' build (ED not included, which could change things). I don't have a 2 weapon comparison yet but if you're willing to provide yours it may be worth considering.

I don't know how much amp you have. Assuming they stack, I have access to 40% from my shield slot and human race enhancements. This is in addition to equipment 114 Healing Spell Power. I don't know if I'll need more but I could always grab Purple Dragon Gauntlets for another 30%, raising me to 70%.

Now, obviously evasion/reflex saves my toon lacks but like I said, I'm planning to have anywhere around 45-55 flat reduction with potentially more from absorption (as needed). I have no idea how much damage your "average" spell does but this is definitely the builds biggest weakness.

-- That said, I'm not trying to show that pure Fighter is better than Anything/Paladin/Monk: Everyone knows that slapping pally and monk on a build = instant power. It's just a question of being strong enough despite lacking the P2W/cheeseball class combo.

My current positive spell power at level 24 is 142 (have done all ee sagas except stormhorns cant get in until level 25)which is not really high, but will be higher because not wearing item. I have 2 pally past lives, 30 and 20 amp items, vigor from of life from paladin for 10%, 15% from shintao enhancements.

To be clear. The problem with a tank on ee is two fold: first I dispute your numbers on DPS you will not contribute that much offensively, second is the utility a tank can provide can not overcome this dps deficiency.

I do not appreciate your personal slander. You can play any gimp you want on ee and complete quests, but the playerbase gravitates toward optimum characters. That is the perspective of me and a lot of the posters in this thread. A tank in general is not optimum on epic elite. This tank build is also flawed as pure fighter tank in regards to not being close to optimum tank type character for that matter.

[Xianio]

My current positive spell power at level 24 is 142 (have done all ee sagas except stormhorns cant get in until level 25)which is not really high, but will be higher because not wearing item. I have 2 pally past lives, 30 and 20 amp items, vigor from of life from paladin for 10%, 15% from shintao enhancements.

So, 75% + 142? I don't know what EE sagas do for positive spell power. I'll have to look that up. Can a Fighter get these too? edit: Having looked these up I don't know what this has to do with spell power. Was the purpose of the EE Sagas to establish credibility? I don't understand.

To be clear. The problem with a tank on ee is two fold: first I dispute your numbers on DPS you will not contribute that much offensively, second is the utility a tank can provide can not overcome this dps deficiency.

You haven't actually disputed my numbers though. You've just said "nope" and left it at that. Until you actually take the time to point out the flaws (the math is right there) your eyes wide shut approach doesn't interest me.

You can play any gimp you want on ee and complete quests, but the playerbase gravitates toward optimum characters. That is the perspective of me and a lot of the posters in this thread. A tank in general is not optimum on epic elite. This tank build is also flawed as pure fighter tank in regards to not being close to optimum tank type character for that matter.

Two primary things being said here: 1st that players gravitate to optimal characters, which is fine. The question never was "is this better than X." The question was "will this survive EE content." Please note the difference. It is critical to your responses being valued.

2nd: Your evaluation of my build relies upon a stereotype to which you have labeled me. You have defined it "as a tank" and thus applied your "tank don't work" paradigm without any interaction with the details of what I ask. In other words, you're working from nearly no hard information, rather only generalizations.

I welcome you refuting the original question, but currently you're being quite lazy about it. If you think my numbers are wrong, show me they're wrong. Otherwise I'll simply disregard you. Why would you expect anything else? If you expect me to respect your opinion, then I'm afraid you're going to have to give me the most minor amount of respect in return.

I do not appreciate your personal slander.

To disagree with you is now slander? Or to acknowledge that Paladin/Monk + Melee is the optimum of power (thus 'chessing' by definition) is slander? I do not know what has caused you to take personal offense to my build but if you it is making you upset, I suggest you simply ignore this thread.

The only other alternative is that you're trying to sound clever. However, if this is the case, you should be sure to use terms that you know. Slander refers to spoken defamation. The word you were looking for was libel, ie: written defamation.

Not that I did either, but that's neither here nor there, I suspect.

[maddmatt70]

After your build has met wide acclaim and success in epic elite I expect to see your posts about how great this character build works on epic elite. Can we count on that? Anything less after this crowing that you do would be a disappointment.

[Xianio]

Look, if you don't want to be bothered to go over the clearly laid out information that's up to you.

The only thing I have EVER asked of YOU is to link me to your build so I could compare it. Everything else, you've brought into this thread. Perhaps you're in a grumpy mood, perhaps you expected me to bow and kiss your toes, I don't know. Either way, you're the one that brought an attitude into this thread, not the other way around.

I have very clearly stated, several times now, that this will NOT be better than most Monk/Pally + Melee build. Never was that the intent, nor was it claimed. I asked if this would work and when you gave me generic "catch-all" answers I told you very clearly that you didn't actually tell me almost anything.

I have done nothing but hold you to an adult standard during a conversation. It seems that was a mistake.

[Inoukchuk]

LD is my only real choice. I will probably twist into Fury for Sense Weakness but that's really it. However the Duregar Waraxe really is a drop in DPS. While putting out more "raw" power the only way my build keeps up is through doublestrike.


Already the plan.


I'm cross classing UMD, I don't know if I'll end up with enough. + No it doesn't. You can switch shields without breaking StD stance. My plan was to use Wall of Wood as a swap in for healing.


This works now. Already tried and tested to make sure that the old shield bashing mechanic was fixed.


With a 50% increase to my hate gen from stance and 1142 being my "1 round of combat damage" I don't think it will be to much of an issue. While possible, I don't think that most can easily compete with 1713 effective damage for hate gen. - Prior to Epic Destiny material.

--------------------------------
Maths, cuz I promised thems:

Xianio/Cetus

11 Deadly	11 Deadly
26 Strength (62)	57 Strength (86 w2hand)
8 enhance	10 enhance
5 pow.at	10 pow.at
4 Fighter	2 Fighter
4 Avg. Medi bonus (Kensai)	4 Avg. Medi bonus (Kensai)
4 Kensai	6 Kensai
15 av. weapon damage	17.5 av. weapon damage
0 elemental	7 red slot
65 before crits	114.5 before crits
With Crits: 118.05	With Crits: 277.65
With Doublestrike: 225.5 x 1.665 = 196.55	With Doublestrike: 390.6 x 1.18 = 327.62
Glancing blows50%: 31	Glancing blows60%: 60
Shield: 35.79	No shield
Total: 263.34	Total: 387.62

Or, an Xianio having 70% of Cetus' damage. That said, I probably did some math wrong so please check it out. The table format on this is HORRIBLE and I was doing this over 8 hours while at work. :P I probably missed something/screwed something up.

Xianio crit formula 17-18x2 19-20x3 / Bloodletter adds + 52 or 67.5 Formula: (Base+Seeker*Crit*%chance of critting) + Bloodletter. Then add them together plus the base for average damage with crit
Cetus crit formula 13-18x3 19-20x4 / elemental doesn't count Formla: same as above minus bloodletter

Edit'd to correct for some math failures (mostly in the crit area): End result is still something that can hold argo but 30% damage lost is still pretty notable. On the positive side, with regards to physical damage sources: Xianio is significantly tougher than Cetus. Elemental damage is the real concern and Cetus has this much better.

Well, I just did the math with Nightmare + Prowess Trinket the result was another 15 damage, not including successful mind thrusts as I don't know how often they would. This also increases my non-crit damage by a bunch and gives moves the total PRR from 115 to 130 - the cost from the trinket was probably 6 ac though. Hard calls all around.
- Makes the build do 72% of Cetus' damage.

Blerg, another Edit: Added in the Red Slot that I missed on the Nightmare originally and mind thrust being successful. The end result was a HUGE damage increase to 326.75 or 84% of Cetus' damage. The trouble of course being that Mind Thrust (from my understanding) NEVER works in EE content. When it doesn't work it's only - 75%

Seems that First Blood is just subpar. Oh well! I already own Nightmare so that's a plus for me

I'd encourage you to run the #'s on duergar, I think you'll find they are as good or better.

As has been mentioned the lack of self heals + laughable saves and no evasion will make EE hard, and really only possible with a dedicated healer (hopefully you have guildies/friends that play healers). But then, a good healer (or 2) is great in any quest, especially against tougher bosses. We ran EE Sable last night and the boss does like 500 AoE force burst + 200ish melee, so 1 sweep can lay out the whole party (or melee portion of it) if your health isn't topped up.

[Xianio]

I'd encourage you to run the #'s on duergar, I think you'll find they are as good or better.

Final D.axe numbers roll in at 299.29 (lets call it 300 even). So definitely better than First Blood AND marginally (9 points of damage) better than Nightmare in EE when Mind Thrust doesn't work. However, for 9 points of additional damage you're giving up 15 PRR, 2 AB and a significant decrease in normal hit damage. ie: You're much more reliant on critical hits.

Some caveats:
I didn't use LD but I DID give headmans chop because otherwise the numbers would have been affected a very great deal.
By going D.axe it would open up a Trinket slot (most likely for more AC) and potentially a ring slot as +10 stunning would be covered by the axe.
I also assumed that you'd be getting 9% doublestrike from another source, if not these numbers are significantly incorrect (ring/writs whatever)

I definitely see pro's for using the D.axe and can see why you like it. It would definitely be worth considering for EE.

As has been mentioned the lack of self heals + laughable saves and no evasion will make EE hard, and really only possible with a dedicated healer (hopefully you have guildies/friends that play healers). But then, a good healer (or 2) is great in any quest, especially against tougher bosses. We ran EE Sable last night and the boss does like 500 AoE force burst + 200ish melee, so 1 sweep can lay out the whole party (or melee portion of it) if your health isn't topped up.

For sure for sure - I'm also assuming that cocoon couldn't be enough to make up for this.

[Cetus]

LD is my only real choice. I will probably twist into Fury for Sense Weakness but that's really it. However the Duregar Waraxe really is a drop in DPS. While putting out more "raw" power the only way my build keeps up is through doublestrike.


Already the plan.


I'm cross classing UMD, I don't know if I'll end up with enough. + No it doesn't. You can switch shields without breaking StD stance. My plan was to use Wall of Wood as a swap in for healing.


This works now. Already tried and tested to make sure that the old shield bashing mechanic was fixed.


With a 50% increase to my hate gen from stance and 1142 being my "1 round of combat damage" I don't think it will be to much of an issue. While possible, I don't think that most can easily compete with 1713 effective damage for hate gen. - Prior to Epic Destiny material.

--------------------------------
Maths, cuz I promised thems:

Xianio/Cetus

11 Deadly	11 Deadly
26 Strength (62)	57 Strength (86 w2hand)
8 enhance	10 enhance
5 pow.at	10 pow.at
4 Fighter	2 Fighter
4 Avg. Medi bonus (Kensai)	4 Avg. Medi bonus (Kensai)
4 Kensai	6 Kensai
15 av. weapon damage	17.5 av. weapon damage
0 elemental	7 red slot
65 before crits	114.5 before crits
With Crits: 118.05	With Crits: 277.65
With Doublestrike: 225.5 x 1.665 = 196.55	With Doublestrike: 390.6 x 1.18 = 327.62
Glancing blows50%: 31	Glancing blows60%: 60
Shield: 35.79	No shield
Total: 263.34	Total: 387.62

Or, an Xianio having 70% of Cetus' damage. That said, I probably did some math wrong so please check it out. The table format on this is HORRIBLE and I was doing this over 8 hours while at work. :P I probably missed something/screwed something up.

Xianio crit formula 17-18x2 19-20x3 / Bloodletter adds + 52 or 67.5 Formula: (Base+Seeker*Crit*%chance of critting) + Bloodletter. Then add them together plus the base for average damage with crit
Cetus crit formula 13-18x3 19-20x4 / elemental doesn't count Formla: same as above minus bloodletter

Edit'd to correct for some math failures (mostly in the crit area): End result is still something that can hold argo but 30% damage lost is still pretty notable. On the positive side, with regards to physical damage sources: Xianio is significantly tougher than Cetus. Elemental damage is the real concern and Cetus has this much better.

Well, I just did the math with Nightmare + Prowess Trinket the result was another 15 damage, not including successful mind thrusts as I don't know how often they would. This also increases my non-crit damage by a bunch and gives moves the total PRR from 115 to 130 - the cost from the trinket was probably 6 ac though. Hard calls all around.
- Makes the build do 72% of Cetus' damage.

Blerg, another Edit: Added in the Red Slot that I missed on the Nightmare originally and mind thrust being successful. The end result was a HUGE damage increase to 326.75 or 84% of Cetus' damage. The trouble of course being that Mind Thrust (from my understanding) NEVER works in EE content. When it doesn't work it's only - 75%

Seems that First Blood is just subpar. Oh well! I already own Nightmare so that's a plus for me

This is so misleading its not even funny

I don't have much desire to dissect this entire post, but let it suffice to say that you're missing the following perks my character has over the one you outlined, I don't know what you're doing with your dude or what destinies you are taking etc... but here's my profile:

Earth Stance monk + devastating critical + overwhelming critical = Esos: 13-18 x3 | 19-20 x6

Iron Fist attack every 3 seconds: +3 W = additional 6d6 base weapon damage + 12-20 profile with 12-18 x4 | 19-20 x7

Ninja Poison DOT: Every 3 Seconds ticks anywhere between like 100 and 145 or so (about an extra 40 dps roughly)

Manyshot Capability

My Strength is (on the bladeforged version that I've yet to post) an 80 = +35 strength modifier.

Warforged PA + 6 to damage

Your Doublestrikes advantage disappears on cleaves

Weapon Attachment: + 1d6 extra damage about 33% of the time (between tenser scroll casts)

50% glancing blow damage (no GTHF on bladeforged version)

Sense weakness makes up for loss of GTHF due to high fortification (otherwise, had brace for impact twisted in)

High Saves + 620+ per reconstruct + evasion + shadow fade + 16%/27% blitz dodge + displacement = Alive - so more dps over being dead.

Also, as I play - I cycle my fist of iron with the other two earth monk attacks - each of which add 8 and 12 damage respectively. (BTW, if you really want to get accurate you should incorporate the affect that my doublestrike has on these monk attacks too).

I guess I can include the +3 monk past life damage, the extra 3% doublestrike I have from my martial past life currently, and the 77 stunning blow dc / 82 trip DC with bladesmark docent on versus your nonexistant tactics that would further improve my damage when trash is concerned.

Oh, I also forgot to mention the sneak attack damage you didn't count either that I acquire from the monk tree + EE back stabbers gloves + 3 Rogue past live (which also procs on manyshots, so remember that one too).

Anything else?

Uhh...well the esos is a +10 weapon, first blood is a +8...so 2 there.

I guess if you use nightmares they're +8's too but with the conflux set theyre +12's, although then u lose the litany I have one so its like +11...but then you need to see if the loss of the profane str keeps you even or not...etc.

Oh - here's another one you forgot:

Dance of Flowers twist - an extra 3d6 base damage just for being centered...

I'm sure I missed more stuff, but there ya have it.

[Xianio]

Of course there's a ton missing, much the same way I didn't count cleaves for both builds or the 3[W] damage on Cut and Block.

Nor did I count any ED material (something I've said in every post). I also stated that I was only using your first page build - ONLY.
I didn't add in the Earth stance because you weren't in earth stance. I didn't add in dev. crit because you didn't say which ED you were using.
I did include your glancing blows (at 60% no less as that's your first page build... again already said this a few times)
Enhancement is already counted.

You also seem to be going into defenses. Something we're not comparing. We could if you wanted but the answer to that is extremely obvious (so much so that I've said it outright in every post).

I didn't realize dance of flowers worked like that. Definitely worth adding.

So, yeah, you did miss a lot. Most of it being what I wrote down to give context.

I guess I can include the +3 monk past life damage, the extra 3% doublestrike I have from my martial past life currently, and the 77 stunning blow dc / 82 trip DC with bladesmark docent on versus your nonexistant tactics that would further improve my damage when trash is concerned.

Where's this coming from?

If we want to go into counting past lives (I mean, it's just a build anyone can use it if they want) - then you can put tactics for stunning blow up to approx. 70. Being Human is just because this is F2P, you could always drop the cash to make it Blademarked, which COULD give you 75 trip (or 79 but I suspect you wouldn't really care by that point).

Also, Manyshot CAN be added to this build - but it's first life without a +5 to tome of dex. Could easily fit this in without any trouble once you have it.

So yes, more things definitely needed to be added to flush out the DPS properly. I don't think I'll update the post, few will scroll up to re-read it.

I don't know how many sneak attack die get added from the Ninja levels (as the others could be held constant, given that EE gloves are still an open slot and past lives are universal).

The real difficulty though is the Ninja Poison. I would suppose that it's DPS potential is highly reliant upon the HP pool of the target you're hitting. You've suggested 40 a second but how long does that take to ramp up? Would that only apply to bosses or does it work with trash as well?

[Cetus]

Of course there's a ton missing, much the same way I didn't count cleaves for both builds or the 3[W] damage on Cut and BlockCleaves hurt you A LOT more than me, since you are heavily depended on doublestrike damage. Figures you'd exclude it evenly although its impact for each build is UNeven. .

Nor did I count any ED material (something I've said in every post).Any? My strength has ED influence I also stated that I was only using your first page build - ONLY. I don't know what you're holding constant, you mentioned a s&b fighter - you might be going sentinel for all I know, yet claiming that you do like 75% of my DPS. This vagueness is part of what makes your opening post extremely ineffective.
I didn't add in the Earth stance because you weren't in earth stance. I didn't add in dev. crit because you didn't say which ED you were using. What are you talking about, given your supposed meticulous analysis of my build, you'd notice earth stance from the PRR in my screenshot, its presence in my buff bar, or its active status in my videos.
I did include your glancing blows (at 60% no less as that's your first page build... again already said this a few times)
Enhancement is already counted.

You also seem to be going into defenses. Something we're not comparing. We could if you wanted but the answer to that is extremely obvious (so much so that I've said it outright in every post).You're the one mentioning DPS difference, survivability is a variable that DPS depends on.

I didn't realize dance of flowers worked like that. Definitely worth adding.

So, yeah, you did miss a lot.What exactly...again your vague assertions bear no meaning in a discussion that compares specifics. Most of it being what I wrote down to give context.


Where's this coming from?

If we want to go into counting past lives (I mean, it's just a build anyone can use it if they want) - then you can put tactics for stunning blow up to approx. 70. Being Human is just because this is F2P, you could always drop the cash to make it Blademarked, which COULD give you 75 trip (or 79 but I suspect you wouldn't really care by that point). Your 70 will not do much in EE except against assassins and casters.

Also, Manyshot CAN be added to this build - but it's first life without a +5 to tome of dex. Could easily fit this in without any trouble once you have it. I'm aware that it can, but I'm going solely off of what YOU posted.

So yes, more things definitely needed to be added to flush out the DPS properly. I don't think I'll update the post, few will scroll up to re-read it.

I don't know how many sneak attack die get added from the Ninja levels (as the others could be held constant, given that EE gloves are still an open slot and past lives are universal).

The real difficulty though is the Ninja Poison. I would suppose that it's DPS potential is highly reliant upon the HP pool of the target you're hitting. You've suggested 40 a second but how long does that take to ramp up? Would that only apply to bosses or does it work with trash as well?

Comments in red

And did you really include shield bashes in your analysis? Lol

[Pala-forged]

Comments in red

And did you really include shield bashes in your analysis? Lol

Not that I disagree with you, but 70 DC stun is fine for most EE. He's been playing for 2 months, if he can stun EE GH most of the time, that's half decent.

Now post that bladeforged version. I'm currently going through a melee sorc life, just for fun. Its stunning blow still works, sadly enough.

[Xianio]

First, please stop typing with one hand. I'm not attacking your build or even claiming that I did it justice. In fact, -directly- under the table the very first thing I say is a request for others to check this as it is -most likely- wrong. Meticulous analysis are your words, not mine.

Survivability is the question of the day and one that has been repeatedly addressed Cetus. I was asked to provide meaningful DPS numbers, I aimed to to do so with the info I had concretely available: and on the side while at work (not meticulously I might add). If the goal was to provide the best "over all build" you'd bet your ass I'd start with Pally/Monk then work from there. This S&B is using your build as a comparison for the sole reason that it's readily available and amount the highest damage. (Plus everyone knows it works in EE). So please, dial it back.

Addressing your other concerns in order:
I've left out all actives as I wasn't willing to take the few hours it would require to fully realize the impact they had on average DPS. It's a distinct possibility that my build functions best without cleaves, while yours cleaves just fine. Is it uneven? Absolutely. Is that mentioned as a caveat - absolutely.

On page one you left out your build progression for LD so I didn't take liberties guessing what they would be (This also applies to your sneak attacks from Ninja). I only took tangible information you wrote down. If that helps clear up where the constants are.

In the text above your screenshot it says Fire Stance. I assumed that Fire stance was the one you were using. I do not play, let alone own the monk class to be able to pick the buff out.

Answered above

You missed the proceeding conversation, which outlines that this isn't a "build" comparison but rather just a dps one. Nobodies disputing your "kingship" mate, there's no need to be up in arms. You also missed the fact that the question was "could this survive" - ie: an acknowledgement that there was a significant flaw in the build with the intent of seeking answers as to if it would be so strong as to be preventative. You also missed the enhancement on the weapon was taken into account. You also missed the fact that I was asking for a critique and improvement, not claiming expertise. There's a few more things but I think you get the point.

Go to know. That was a question I had asked earlier yet nobody had been able to provide the answer. Thanks. PS: When you say "won't work" do you mean 'no fail' won't work or that 70 isn't enough to EVER work? I ask because there's a significant difference between the two in my book.

I liked this comment, mostly because so was I. (albeit I missed stuff but I suppose we're both guilty of that).

Finally, yes I included shield bashes. Ever since update 19 (maybe 18 I'm not sure) the shield bash mechanic has been fixed to act correctly. The automatic bashes are properly added in between attacks 3 or the 4 attacks (I forget exactly which ones). Given that shield bashes are full strength, affected by deadly, power attack, seeker and can critically hit it adds a small but noteworthy amount to average DPS.
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A few additional points:
To keep the numbers clean I also didn't add in StD's level 18 core ability, which lets my basic attacks hit 2 targets at once. This effectively doubles my DPS in specific situations. With LD this has a 100% up-time until exhausted.

I also didn't include LD's power attack bonus and action bonus to weapons. While something I suspect we'd share, I don't know if this affects shields. If it does that will add yet more damage, which would certainly be helpful.

Finally I wouldn't commit myself to Nightmare either at this point. As you can see a few posts lower, the idea of using a Deurgar Weapon Master Axe is also being tossed around.

Why do I point this out? Because this should show you how limited that analysis was and how it wasn't intended to be a true representation of your builds DPS potential. Rather, it was a modest guess. This is something you would have known if you'd read any of the sentences following the word "Total:"

[Zoda]

Nobodies disputing your "kingship" mate

Now I'm offended.

[Xianio]

*shakes fist* Arg politics!

Fine fine, Zoda questions your kingship. I certainly do not.

Lol (with a S&B pure fighter no less)

Edit: Is Tenser's a clickie or scroll? I didn't add that into my strength and/or tactics DC's. If so I guess that would make it 73 and 77; stun and trip respectively.

[Cetus]

First, please stop typing with one hand. I'm not attacking your build or even claiming that I did it justice I'm not sure what drove you to clarify that you weren't attacking the build. I merely aimed to correct the misrepresentations of my DPS found in your comparison. That's all. . In fact, -directly- under the table the very first thing I say is a request for others to check this as it is -most likely- wrong. Meticulous analysis are your words, not mineWhich is why I prefaced that phrase with the word "supposedly". If you're going to do a DPS comparison, then meticulous analysis wouldn't hurt you. .

Survivability is the question of the day and one that has been repeatedly addressed Cetus. I was asked to provide meaningful DPS numbers, I aimed to to do so with the info I had concretely available: and on the side while at work (not meticulously I might add)You're doing it on the side as much as I am, so asking me to stop typing "one handed" may be a bit hypocritical here.. If the goal was to provide the best "over all build" you'd bet your ass I'd start with Pally/Monk then work from there. This S&B is using your build as a comparison for the sole reason that it's readily available and amount the highest damage. (Plus everyone knows it works in EE). So please, dial it back.You seem to be interpretting my post as aggressive, rather than me "dialing it back" I suggest you view these comments in a friendlier context.

Addressing your other concerns in order:
I've left out all actives as I wasn't willing to take the few hours it would require to fully realize the impact they had on average DPS. It's a distinct possibility that my build functions best without cleaves, while yours cleaves just fine. Is it uneven? Absolutely. Is that mentioned as a caveat - absolutely.

On page one you left out your build progression for LD so I didn't take liberties guessing what they would be (This also applies to your sneak attacks from Ninja)Well, I actually included the three tiers of sneak attack training under my monk tree AP expenditure . I only took tangible information you wrote down. If that helps clear up where the constants are.

In the text above your screenshot it says Fire Stance.It does not say fire stance. It says fire finisher. I assumed that Fire stance was the one you were using. I do not play, let alone own the monk class to be able to pick the buff out.

Answered above

You missed the proceeding conversation, which outlines that this isn't a "build" comparison but rather just a dps one. Nobodies disputing your "kingship" mate, there's no need to be up in armsOnce again, you seem to interpret my comments as hostile. My comments are directly aimed at the points - I'm not softening it with lol's and smileys, but this isn't meant to be demeaning. Thicker skin please. . You also missed I did? I merely commented on your posted comparison. I disagree here. the fact that the question was "could this survive" - ie: an acknowledgement that there was a significant flaw in the build with the intent of seeking answers as to if it would be so strong as to be preventative. You also missed the enhancement on the weapon was taken into accountNope, got that. All I did was rectify things about my build in your comparison to make it more accurate. . You also missed the fact that I was asking for a critique and improvement, not claiming expertise. I improved the accuracy of the comparison. There's a few more things but I think you get the point.

Go to know. That was a question I had asked earlier yet nobody had been able to provide the answer. Thanks. PS: When you say "won't work" do you mean 'no fail' won't work or that 70 isn't enough to EVER work? I run a 77-78 stunning blow DC and gaints, Orcs (notably the priests) rarely stun. Shadavers also rarely stun. No such thing as "never" work, since they can always roll a 1. I ask because there's a significant difference between the two in my book.

I liked this comment, mostly because so was I. (albeit I missed stuff but I suppose we're both guiltyYou still ahven't convinced me that I misssed anything at all, =D of that).

Finally, yes I included shield bashes. Ever since update 19 (maybe 18 I'm not sure) the shield bash mechanic has been fixed to act correctly. The automatic bashes are properly added in between attacks 3 or the 4 attacks (I forget exactly which ones). Given that shield bashes are full strength, affected by deadly, power attack, seeker and can critically hit it adds a small but noteworthy amount to average DPS. Yea, but I found it humorous.
--------------------------------------------------

A few additional points:
To keep the numbers clean I also didn't add in StD's level 18 core ability, which lets my basic attacks hit 2 targets at once. This effectively doubles my DPS in specific situations In theory...but practical situations will subtract from that. With LD this has a 100% up-time until exhausted.

I also didn't include LD's power attack bonus and action bonus to weapons. While something I suspect we'd share, I don't know if this affects shields. If it does that will add yet more damage, which would certainly be helpful.

Finally I wouldn't commit myself to Nightmare either at this point. As you can see a few posts lower, the idea of using a Deurgar Weapon Master Axe is also being tossed around.

Why do I point this out? Because this should show you how limited that analysis was and how it wasn't intended to be a true representation of your builds DPS potential. Rather, it was a modest guess. This is something you would have known if you'd read any of the sentences following the word "Total:Then why bother at all..."

Comments in red

[Cetus]

Now I'm offended.

Stop interfering with my trolling!

Not that I disagree with you, but 70 DC stun is fine for most EE. He's been playing for 2 months, if he can stun EE GH most of the time, that's half decent.

Now post that bladeforged version. I'm currently going through a melee sorc life, just for fun. Its stunning blow still works, sadly enough.

Yea 70 DC is fine for most EE, I mainly had stormhorns in mind.

I've been trying to get with it, but its just too much fun as bladeforged atm. I'll try to start it tonight or tomorrow - most of it is the same though.

[Xianio]

To go through in order:

The belief of an aggressive tone comes from the claim that I was being misleading and that I was holding my work to a meticulous level. To make such a claim is directly opposed to the sentence following the table, which suggests that it wasn't even read. Given the original post, the posts leading up to the table and posts following the table this was laid out very clearly - I would say outright. While I will certainly remove the sarcasm going forward, I don't think the reaction could be considered surprising given the contents of the quoted post.

*Jumping down to the sneak attack line* - You did, I misinterpreted that as 3 tiers of the tree. My mistake.

And one doesn't need to be in fire stance to use its finisher? Ah well, the more you know.

If you'd like to bring in survivability we can but I see little point. That was never in question and it's a significant stretch to connect the two given that the context of the table existing at all is "If this can survive, this is the dps it can do." I say you missed this as the very title of this thread is "Could this survive EE?" - to provide context.

Your words were "add two" when "two" were already added. This seems like a clear mistake to me, given that your stated goal was to list your builds missed points. Not that it matters, but that's where this comes from.

You certainly did. Unfortunately you did it under the context of being an intentional misrepresentation. I would have expected that the "mostly wrong" line would have covered that.

Why? It adds approximately 35 damage a swing (of the mainhand weapon). That's nearly equal to what Ninja Poison is adding. Might even end up being more depending on how it interacts with feats/ED's.

Yes of course, it's why it was removed. However, unless Epic Elite mob sizes differ significantly from Heroic Elite content I don't expect the average combat to be 1v1 (That's not to say the approach won't differ, but I still expect 2v1 to be quite frequent).

Because I was asked and because it gives those who know more than I the opportunity to point out the gaps in my knowledge. While I certainly learn a lot by "doing" it's far more practical to ask questions/explain my reasoning and have authorities point out the flaws in it. After all, I have yet to see another example of a S&B build that goes into that kind of detail (or nearly any build for that matter). It seems that it's something that is 'not done' here. - A habit I suspect comes from the fact that this is a PvE game. Were it a PvP one analysis would be far tighter, in my experience.

[Theolin]

Let me relate a tale of woe .....

I have 850HP, 155 AC, 134 PPR(~48%), 25% dodge, 25% incorp, 20% blur - and in the harder EEs I get hit right about 25% of the time or so for somewhere between 80-150 damage a hit, bad mobs can hit for about 220 still.

That ac is worth between 25%-50% miss in EEs depending on which one.

Any one mob is not an issue if you can heal, 3 mobs is about max before death happens. & I can stun often enough so really its only 2 causing damage & I can heal myself easily.

--- granted EH is a complete cake walk