Pure S&B Fighter - Could this survive Epic Elite?

[Xianio]

Hey all,

I've been playing around now for about 2 months and have a level 12 Fighter. I'm very determined to keep it going all the way to level 20 sticking to the S&B theme. I've been doing some planning for the eventuality of EE content (which will take forever, but I'm okay with that).

Here are the defensive stats assuming powerful end gear:

115 PRR (45% DR)
135-140 AC
20% concealment
10% incorporeal (or reverse those two, I always forget which gets the 20%)
5% elusive
6% dodge
-------------
With a little bit of estimation: 70% net damage reduction from physical.
Then add another 12-14 DR (all types)

HP in the mid to high 900 range.
Elemental reduction between 40-55 depending on gear layout.

Improved Trip + Stunning Blow for CC with numerous + to tactics from Dreadnaught and Kensai

Offensively, you've got the full Kensai + fighter base damage bonuses.
I'm using Bswords (for First Blood) so I've also got all Two handed Weapon Fighting feats giving me 3 glancing blows doing 50% damage each.
I'm I also have all shield bashing feats + StD enhancement for 35% bashing (+ 20% more once I get Aegis)
Finally, the build centers around doublestrike, which once fully geared, rolls in at 54-79%
Also many many uses of Fighter Haste and Human Damage boost

Thoughts, critiques?

[Pala-forged]

for EE - which you mentioned - the 14 DR is a joke.. Wouldn't care about it personally.

900 hp is okay.
Elemental reduction.. Eh, might help? For most things, evasion is much better.

What sort of DC will your tactics have?

[Xianio]

14 is just on top of the 45% PRR is giving me. If the damage sits around 150 that 14 is equivalent to 18% more DR.

Yeah, evasion would be better, but it can't be done with a pure fighter (which is what I'm committed to )

I'm not sure of the exact numbers on the tactics but it's a 28 point build with no past lives and 16 starting strength (although I have a +5 tome) and all points will go into it. With Kensai, LD and Combat Mastery (6?) I'm looking at +17 before strength bonuses. Unfortunately I don't know how high my strength will be (didn't both looking). I assume, maxed out from gear with another +8 from kensai. Maybe 56 or so?

If that's right (big if) that means 50-54?

[unbongwah]

20% concealment
10% incorporeal (or reverse those two, I always forget which gets the 20%)

You've got it right: Blurry item is 20% concealment; Ghostly item is 10% incorporeality.

However, don't just throw out a bunch of numbers; plan exactly what gear you plan to slot. Oftentimes you'll find several items on your wishlist competing for the same slots.

Finally, the build centers around doublestrike, which once fully geared, rolls in at 54-79%

I presume this is the build you posted which is going for Kensei capstone; so it's 15% from capstone, 15% from EE First Blood, 15% from Legendary Shield Mastery, 25% from Block & Cut - what's your plan for final 9%? Draconic Ferocity + morale bonus?

[Jasparion]

The problem with your build is that you will not really be contributing in any reasonable manner to the DPS of the group, meaning the mobs will be spending more time beating on you (I assume you keep aggro with Intim), meaning you probably need a dedicated healer to keep you up, meaning your group DPS falls even further.

As a 28 point build first life pure Fighter I would suggest that perhaps your goal should be to aim for EH or maybe TR a few times to build up your stats, build up your gear, change your mind on the class(es) you want to take.

You probably shouldnt be running the most difficult dungeons in the game. It seems a bit unfair on the other players.

[Xianio]

I presume this is the build you posted which is going for Kensei capstone; so it's 15% from capstone, 15% from EE First Blood, 15% from Legendary Shield Mastery, 25% from Block & Cut - what's your plan for final 9%? Draconic Ferocity + morale bonus?

5% From Epic Two Handed Weapon Fighting
4% from Kensai Strike with no thought

The Draconic Ferocity was originally the plan but I dropped it for loot gen helm so I could max out either Protection or Deadly (I forget which off the top of my head).

However, don't just throw out a bunch of numbers; plan exactly what gear you plan to slot. Oftentimes you'll find several items on your wishlist competing for the same slots.

Didn't have the time (still don't) however we're looking at few things:
First Blood
Madstone Aegis (shield)
Black Dragon armor
Ring of Shadows
Epic Guardian Cloak
Goats Boots
The necklace that gives +15% melee altricity

That leaves the trinket, wrists, 1 ring, gloves, goggles, helm and belt. I can't remember these right now but I had some loot gen'd for gear that named content couldn't fill.

Once I get some time I'll write it all out but I'm currently building a marketing content calender for 2014 and this is what constitutes "breaks I shouldn't be taking" time. xD

PS: For the guy above me, I'll evaluate the damage numbers a little later but so far they're surprisingly good. Mostly because 80% doublestrike is pure insanity lol

[maddmatt70]

No Self healing = lousy. A tank has to have self healing on epic elite it just makes for a much more powerful character. I cocoon and regenerate lay on hands myself all day long. The big problem with tanks is that they lack dps. They are just so painful and dreadful to level on epic elite due to their lack of dps.

[Xianio]

Why couldn't I cocoon? Does it have a pre-req that I can't reach?

To give some dps perspective here;

First Blood hits pretty hard. Please keep in mind that has 54-79% doublestrike so that's LOTS of hitting power.

It's also getting 3 glancing blows with 50% damage per hit. Which adds up.

Then you've got a shield that can proc (55% per swing) 3 times per 4 swing cycle and Madstone Aegis hits -really- hard for a shield/off hand weapon. (shields get full strength bonus, full deadly bonus etc etc.)

Plus I'm looking forward to getting to hit 2 guys at once with the level 18 StD core enhancement.

The end result? Something that hits closer to a 2 weapon fighting toon with durability closer to that of a tank. Close to both but better than neither.

[Pala-forged]

It's also getting 3 glancing blows with 50% damage per hit. Which adds up.

It has 3/4 of getting a glancing blow, if you stay still.

.75*.5 = .375

The way glancing blows work: Without THF, first and fourth attacks in a sequence (while not moving) get a glancing blow. With GTHF, first, third and fourth attacks (not moving) in a sequence will roll for glancing blows. So every 3 attacks out of 4 will throw glancing rolls, or 75%.

If I misunderstood what you meant, my bad.

[LOOON375]

Why couldn't I cocoon?

Depending on a lot of different things, cocoon is nice, but might not be enough just by itself. On the toons that I run EE content that have cocoon twisted, they also have scroll healing ability, and I alternate the two.
I also have a monk thrower that uses both cocoon and healing spring, since it doesn't have scroll healing worthy UMD.

During the heat of a fight, cocoon. When you got a second or two, heal yourself up with scrolls to save what little spell point pool you have.

And cocoon requires spell points. there are numerous ways to get spell points.

You want to look for OVERALL survivability. Not just defensive stuff. You can build the toughest toon in the game, but if you can't do any meaningful damage, it will be a waste. You will eventually get killed before you can kill the mobs.

With what you are trying to do, you will do fine up to epic hard content. But you will probably hit a wall if you try to take it into EE.

Since it sounds like this if your first toon, just play the game and have fun. Learn as you go.

Good luck.

[Xianio]

The way glancing blows work: Without THF, first and fourth attacks in a sequence (while not moving) get a glancing blow. With GTHF, first, third and fourth attacks (not moving) in a sequence will roll for glancing blows. So every 3 attacks out of 4 will throw glancing rolls, or 75%.

This isn't how glancing blows work. Glancing blows aren't a % chance of proc'ing. They're a guaranteed attack while standing still and going through your attack sequence. They occur on the 1st, 2nd and 4th attack (when you have gthf) and have a -5 penalty to hit and do 50% base damage with a reduced chance to do additional weapon effects (fire, cold etc).

There's no % chance of proc'ing them, each one is 50% damage and it occurs 3 times per attack sequence; adding the equavalent of another attack and a halves worth of base damage.

since it doesn't have scroll healing worthy UMD.

What's the req on those?

[Pala-forged]

3/4 attacks are glancing blows, if you aren't moving and have GTHF. Fact. 1st, 3rd and 4th attacks, to be precise. (If it helps you understand my point, let 1 be a glancing blow, 0 be no glancing. 1011 - You can repeat it indefinitely, then count how many 1's there are and put it over the total rolls. In this case, it's 1+1+1=3 over 1+1+1+1=4. Or, 3/4.)

3/4 when converted to a decimal is .75 Or 75%. Statistically, 75% of your attacks are glancing - that doesn't mean each attack has a roll for it, but over 100 attacks, 75 will be glancing blows. If you'll disagree with that, I don't know what to say.

Now, .75*.5 = .375. That was the increase of dps compared to not having it. Wasn't exactly relevant to anything, but I like to have the numbers when I post things.

However, I wasn't sure if you knew how they worked - and my explanation was slightly confusing, though I blame it on medication.

By the quoted line, "It's also getting 3 glancing blows with 50% damage per hit. Which adds up.", I misunderstood what you meant; I thought you meant each attack would have 3 glancing blows.

Edit: Scroll healing UMD is 39 no fail. Arti *may* reduce it, but that's been bugged for me. Not too hard to reach with some sacrifices. And a bunny hat.

[kned225]

Every day seems to bring more "make my tank useful in EEs" threads. Every build brings out numbers that seem impressive on paper, but equal very little in EEs.

Bottom line, as others have said is....you're gonna get hit often and hard and wont have the dps to make up for it, or the healing ability to recover from it

There needs to be a game design change before these kind of builds will ever be viable in EEs. Tin cans need a SERIOUS boost in their damage mitigation abilities and a way to effectively hold threat while other players are doing thousands of damage

[taurean430]

Pure S&B Fighter - Could this survive Epic Elite?

Sadly no.

You are building for physical damage mitigation. Even with the numbers you've posted, you will need to be tethered to a dedicated healer type to survive.

You are relying on elemental absorption to survive AOE, this will not work. Evasion is far more important. And must have a high reflex save to make evasion work.

You have almost no way to self heal. That directly translates to others being responsible for you. This will not help your relations with other players that run EE's frequently.

You have no significant ranged option. This is self explanatory.

You are relying on S&B dps and intim to hold aggro. This will only work in a boss fight situation (raid) and will require the entire raid party to stand around for 2 mins to allow you to build up some threat. Almost no one will do that.

You will lose aggro immediately to *any* other toon that attacks the same mob. This equates to you chasing mobs most of the time. Which means even less dps.


My best advice is to stick to EH with that type of build. EE's will prove to be very frustrating for you. Turbine supposedly made all of these game mechanic changes to help fighters. This is a fail. Not only have they killed ac/evasion builds of before that were quite effective they have also rendered turtle builds to very, very limited use in difficult content. Until the devs are willing to concede that they've failed in this area and try again, we are stuck with this.

The only place that I've seen tank builds do particularly well considering all epic content is in EH Fall of Truth. That's it. They can't survive EE and become a huge resource drain for everyone else.

[Xianio]

I've been sneaking some time into my lunch/the odd break today to do some math on damage output.

I compared the Cetus build (first page - I didn't dig deeper for edits to it) with my build. I held some constants (Deadly 11, no Epic Destiny used) and I was happily surprised with the results.

After my companies (early) holiday party this evening I'll post the math but the 1 full combat animation (4 attacks + glancing) the damage played out like this:

Average damage (crits, glancing, shield procs all included)

Cetus: 1406 average in 4 hits.
Xianio: 1142 average in 4 hits.

ie: My "tank" build deals 81% of Cetus' damage (before Epic Destinies are applied)

Pretty cool, math to come.
edit: The primary reason for my build being even close was due to the 54-79% doublestrike vs Cetus' 18%.

[Wipey]

Math never helps solve problems, it only further complicates them.
But if you dare to enter the world of such dark sorcery, don't forget to include Cetus's constant = over 9000 in your calculations.

[bsquishwizzy]

Hey all,

I've been playing around now for about 2 months and have a level 12 Fighter. I'm very determined to keep it going all the way to level 20 sticking to the S&B theme. I've been doing some planning for the eventuality of EE content (which will take forever, but I'm okay with that).

Here are the defensive stats assuming powerful end gear:

115 PRR (45% DR)
135-140 AC
20% concealment
10% incorporeal (or reverse those two, I always forget which gets the 20%)
5% elusive
6% dodge
-------------
With a little bit of estimation: 70% net damage reduction from physical.
Then add another 12-14 DR (all types)

HP in the mid to high 900 range.
Elemental reduction between 40-55 depending on gear layout.

Improved Trip + Stunning Blow for CC with numerous + to tactics from Dreadnaught and Kensai

Offensively, you've got the full Kensai + fighter base damage bonuses.
I'm using Bswords (for First Blood) so I've also got all Two handed Weapon Fighting feats giving me 3 glancing blows doing 50% damage each.
I'm I also have all shield bashing feats + StD enhancement for 35% bashing (+ 20% more once I get Aegis)
Finally, the build centers around doublestrike, which once fully geared, rolls in at 54-79%
Also many many uses of Fighter Haste and Human Damage boost

Thoughts, critiques?

I know I’m gonna get flak for this, but your build is OK for EE…if it were a paladin. Otherwise, you’re going to get mauled, unable to self-heal, and not be able to put out enough DPS to smack down the mobs before they kill you.

I have a pally with less DR, AC, and PRR than what you mentioned, and he does OK in EE; not spectacular, but OK. This is mainly because he can self-heal, backup heal, and rez as well as put out minor DPS, and I can flip into Glorious Stand if I need to. The self-healing covers a lot.

If you are in a group with a dedicated healer (I tend to PUG most content) I think you’ll be fine. If you solo? Not sure how well your build will perform.

The CC may or may not work on the mobs in EE. I would assume they don’t.

I think the double-strike is probably the best feature you’ve got going there, though. And the comment atbout 14 DR being nothing? I think 14 DR is actually pretty good for what you got going there.

[Zoda]

Pure S&B human fighter is one of my all time favorite builds, I used to solo all kinds of E/Es on mine before epic Gianthold aired (epic high road, some sands stuff, and most of my PDK favor I gathered solo as well), but times have changed a lot since then, a well built, played and equipped s&b character can still solo most of the e/e content, and contribute a lot in groups, but it is not nearly as appealing as it once was to some people (and I also doubt that s&b is the best way to go if you are building a tank these days, which saddens me a lot... Shadow Veil + high dodge with an alrighty prr is just better, and frees up both hands for dps). I posted my latest approach on a s&b build a few days ago in these sub forums, you can check it out if you change your mind about multiclassing...or just out of curiosity . All in all, I doubt that pure fighter can still be good for e/e content, your saves are just not good enough, your dps is no longer great compared to other options, and you don't get evasion, hell, even Cetus struggled after the expansion came out before he finally managed to get his level split/alignment right on the 79th lesser reincarnation (lol).

A few advices though, regardless off your class split:
- use Duregar Waraxe instead of First Blood, it has more dps (plus headman's chop in LD), and also makes it easier to setup the rest of your gear, speaking of DPS - LD is probably your only choice if you wanna do reasonably well
- make at least one greensteel displacement clicky (it is fairly cheap, and once you have one you'll want more, simple as that), it is by far the best way to mitigate incoming damage
- if you are a fleshie, gather the favor for Silver Flame healing potions, if you don't have the UMD for heal scrolls - and if you can't slot the healing amp on your gear (switching to hamp offhander drops your stance, so it's not an option), they are absolutely mandatory in my opinion, even if you do twist coccoon, the save debuff is fairly irrelevant on e/e - on a pure fighter the only saves you might make are fort saves anyway
- test your shield bash on a dummy or something, it used to be buggy as hell, might not fully stack up to 55%, or you might need to interrupt your attack pattern with a tactical move to make it work properly - in which case you lose a lot of attacks on which you can proc it, since it can't proc on cleaves, etc - might not worth it to go for high shield bash value - alchemical crafted shield is a great overall choice, if the extra bash chance from Aegis doesn't work (keep an eye out for stuff like two bashes in a row, if you still can't bash twice in a row, it is pretty bad already - it used to be like that)

[Nightmanis]

A few advices though, regardless off your class split:
- use Duregar Waraxe instead of First Blood, it has more dps (plus headman's chop in LD), and also makes it easier to setup the rest of your gear, speaking of DPS - LD is probably your only choice if you wanna do reasonably well
- make at least one greensteel displacement clicky (it is fairly cheap, and once you have one you'll want more, simple as that), it is by far the best way to mitigate incoming damage
- if you are a fleshie, gather the favor for Silver Flame healing potions, if you don't have the UMD for heal scrolls - and if you can't slot the healing amp on your gear (switching to hamp offhander drops your stance, so it's not an option), they are absolutely mandatory in my opinion, even if you do twist coccoon, the save debuff is fairly irrelevant on e/e - on a pure fighter the only saves you might make are fort saves anyway
- test your shield bash on a dummy or something, it used to be buggy as hell, might not fully stack up to 55%, or you might need to interrupt your attack pattern with a tactical move to make it work properly - in which case you lose a lot of attacks on which you can proc it, since it can't proc on cleaves, etc - might not worth it to go for high shield bash value - alchemical crafted shield is a great overall choice, if the extra bash chance from Aegis doesn't work (keep an eye out for stuff like two bashes in a row, if you still can't bash twice in a row, it is pretty bad already - it used to be like that)

^^ Pretty much this. Minus the "I'm always going to use a Bastard, because Die Zoda."

Also, you're going to need to plan all your gear. Currently the only way to get +6 to tactics from an item is the Adamantine cloak of the Bear. That's way better than the Guardian's cloak anyway, and the Mabar Cloak is better than that. The Epic Elite Jeweled cloak is also a good option, and best used as a swap in in heavy caster enviroments.

A good full setup that I would suggest (if we go with what you suggested vs what I think will be better) it'll look something like this:

Helm: Epic Elite Helm of the Black Dragon, +3 Ins Str
Armour: Flawless Black Dragonplate armour
Cloak: Mabar Cloak/EE Jeweled Cloak/Adamantine cloak of the Bear
Shield: Madstone Aegis/Alchemical Triple Fire Tower Shield (Seeker 10, +2 Alche str, No one really cares about tier 3)
Weapon: First Blood (Or the Duergar Axe, your choice)
Bracers: Greater Convalescent bracers (if using the axe, Skirmisher's Bracer's)
Ring 1: Dun'Robar ring, flavour of your choice
Ring 2: Defense: Guardian's ring, Offense: Skirmisher's, Survival: Ring of Shadows
Necklace: EE Jorgundal's Collar (that necklace you were talking about) Good alternative is to take the feat that does the same thing, and use a deadly item here.
Belt: I like the Guardian's belt, though a Str +10 HP +50 belt like Cetus has would be the most optimal.
Boots: Goatskins. Alternative is actually to have GS Min2 HP here.

The Trinket is now the really fun part. In some EE quests (mostly seems to be in Wheloon and the Stormhorns) you can actually pull lootgen trinkets. I have a Seeker 10 one, and a Wise 10 of Resistance 10 I use on my rogue. But there are so many other good options that anything would be ok. I'd use a Planar trinket for any stat you don't have (ins con +3 comes to mind)

[TheLegendOfAra]

- use Duregar Waraxe instead of First Blood, it has more dps (plus headman's chop in LD), and also makes it easier to setup the rest of your gear, speaking of DPS - LD is probably your only choice if you wanna do reasonably well)

Zoda only says this because he's like 1 of 5 people on argo who have actually got one of these.