Bring us Aasimar!

[Failedlegend]

Lumis! Because lightbulb heads.
http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/mm...lery/83020.jpg

I approve :P

[SirValentine]

Who cares if it's 'core' or not?

Me.

What I want to know is: Does the {insert name here} race have a niche in 'DDO' that it can fill?

If you just want any old MMO with filled niches, instead of a Dungeons and Dragons game, there are lots of other options.

[thwart]

Sucks to your Aasimar!

[FranOhmsford]

However there is no logical justification for giving them a +2 Wis mod. Wis has never been their thing.

Please know what you're talking about before making Statements like this.

From TSR 2134 PHBR9 The Complete Book of Gnomes & Halflings:

Both Forest Gnomes and Svirfneblin got a +1 to Wisdom as well as Dex {this would be +2 in 3.5/DDO}.

Tinker Gnomes {Dragonlance specific subrace known for lack of Common Sense} and standard Rock Gnomes {Shorter Dwarves} got a -1 to Wisdom.


Now yes the Tinkers have become the Iconic Gnomes {Just like DDO's Halflings being Kender in Disguise} and Rock Gnomes are the Base Race BUT If Gnomes were to be added into DDO then Turbine would do well to use the Svirfneblin's stats and Lore {Especially with the Svirfneblin being one of if not THE biggest enemy of the Drow in Forgotten Realms!}.

[mikarddo]

Thats a great explanation use it next time instead of saying "because it's core" but I kind of disagree...core races are not more or less recognizable to DnD players only to the masses...the masses do not play DDO. Thri-Kreen, Aasimar, Tieflings, Shardminds, Genasi, Shifters, Bug Bears, Goblins, Kobolds are all instantly recognizable as opposed to say an Elven race which you than need to take a sec to identify which elf race it is.

Half of the races you call instantly recognizable I never heard off and even more I wouldnt know how to recognize if I say one. I played a bit of D&D in the late 80s and took up EQ1 in 1999 and DDO in 2011 and I rather think there might be more players like me playing this game rather than fewer. So, lets not pretend that only die-hard D&D players form the DDO population.

Apart from that I dont terribly care which race if any is added. I would much rather have more raids and high level quests to be honest. Its not like +2 wis at creation makes or breaks the game in any way at all.

[TGOskar]

Mind if I chime in? Given that this discussion has turned quite, quite heated...

I'd like to have Gnomes first than anything else for various reasons, but specifically because it's required to complete the PC races from the Core Rulebooks (what zwiebelring refers to). However, the real reason I'd like to see them is because their flavor in Eberron is strikingly different from the rest. At first instance, a gnome from Eberron may seem like your typical gnome; unassuming, friendly, good-natured...and that's exactly how the Zil want themselves to be seen. I'd like to, if you may, request you look Zil Gnomes (gnomes from the country of Zilargo, namely), and specifically the way they're portrayed in the Player's Guide to Eberron. Specifically, the term corligano. That term alone, and what represents, is what I feel makes gnomes in Eberron unique. Not only that; they are the masters of Elemental Binding, and are actually the people who create airships, elemental galleons and lightning rail carts: they ARE the heavy industries of Khorvaire, in terms of Magitek. Strangely enough, I don't like the idea of Tinker Gnomes becoming the face of all gnomes, as they're already being heavily used by the competition. Sure, they might get to use some gadgets, but when I think of gnomes using gadgets, I see them less as mad scientists and more like a combination between an intelligence agency and the Mafia.

Regarding other races...since I got hooked to DDO because it was based on Eberron, I'd like to see at least Shifters in play. They should cause the least of problems, since there are ways to handle their Shifting, and most of the racial feats can be collapsed into their racial enhancement tree. The effect of Shifting is pretty close to Raging, after all, except for the actual traits it grants. You don't need ALL forms of shifting; with four, it should suffice (Razorclaw for Strength, Longstride for Dexterity, Beasthide for Constitution and Dreamsight for Wisdom). Shifters are one of the PC races in Eberron, and if they already started with the Warforged, it more than makes sense. Kalashtar, on the other hand, are somewhat complex to work with unless the developers finally make sense of Psionics (something that's part of both Eberron AND the Forgotten Realms, something that's in the game since Advanced Dungeons & Dragons 1st Edition, and something that's intrinsic to the Eberron experience).

I like the idea that Aasimar is suggested as a playable race, but I incline towards waiting for Gnomes to appear first than Aasimar, even if they're the only race thus far that grants Wisdom (aside from the Githzerai and the Buomman; look at the last one in either the Manual of the Planes or the Planar Handbook) and is instantly recognizeable. "Lesser" Aasimar are, IMO, more of an exploit than a thing, since their first appearance is in the Players' Guide to Faerun, and they're variants to be used if you wish to play them as 1st-level characters (p. 190, if you're curious and have the book). Lesser aasimar are meant to be variants that can be allowed or rebuked by the DM; the Aasimar (and the Tiefling) as presented on the FRCS and Races of Faerun is the one with Level Adjustment, and thus they HAVE to be 28-pt. buy. Note that the ONLY difference between the Aasimar, the Tiefling, and their lesser variants is the change from Outsider to Humanoid...and that's about it. It's not entirely balanced when they still retain their racial energy resistances and their favorable ability scores... Might as well bite the forced 28-pt. buy and let them be Outsiders, as that makes them immune to spells such as Hold Person, Charm Person and other such abilities (which is really powerful at early levels with those darn Kobold Shamans!!). They're as every bit as "Core" as the Shifters, the Changelings and the Kalashtar, though, so they're in the same footing.

As for Kobolds...well, they're cute and whatnot, but they're not introduced as a PC race up until Races of the Dragon (the same supplement that introduced Dragonborn and Spellscales; why people always forget the latter...?), so their claim is not as strong as that of Changelings, Shifters, Kalashtar, Aasimar, Tiefling or the Genasi. Sure, they're part of the Core Rulebooks, but so do the Aasimar and the Tiefling, and they have a secondary claim. I don't debate how strong is their claim compared to the Eberron races, but since they already have the Warforged, might as well continue with it.

As for what else to add to the nuclear-intensity fire...I'd say that, barring one race, most of the Psionics races (Dromite, Duergar, Elan, Githyanki, Githzerai, Maenad, Thri-Kreen and Xeph) should appear as well...once Psionics are well-defined. These races depend almost completely on Psionics (though the Duergar and the Giths have their non-psionic equivalents), so it's natural that they're held until Psionics are defined, released, and only AFTER the Kalashtar enter play. The race that I place the exception is the Half-Giant, since they're naturally psionic but the lore of Eberron doesn't make them actually inclined to psionics, unless they're Sarlonan Half-Giants (Xen'drik Half-Giants might be more magically inclined). I'd also add Mechanatrixes, Daelkyr Half-Bloods and Goblins.

...in fact, I find the idea of having Hobgoblins and Bugbears but no common Goblins insulting. I'd like to see a Goblin/Kobold event in the future; that might raise some sales between Kobold fans and Goblin fans, and maybe add them as a race (inb4 literal names such as those from the GAP).

[FranOhmsford]

As for Kobolds...well, they're cute and whatnot, but they're not introduced as a PC race up until Races of the Dragon (the same supplement that introduced Dragonborn and Spellscales; why people always forget the latter...?), so their claim is not as strong as that of Changelings, Shifters, Kalashtar, Aasimar, Tiefling or the Genasi. Sure, they're part of the Core Rulebooks, but so do the Aasimar and the Tiefling, and they have a secondary claim. I don't debate how strong is their claim compared to the Eberron races, but since they already have the Warforged, might as well continue with it.

Actually Kobolds have been Playable for over 20 years!

TSR 2135 PHBR10 The Complete Book of Humanoids gives their stats and PC lore alongside those of:

Aarakocra
Alaghi
Beastmen
Bugbears
Advanced Bullywugs
Centaurs
Fremlins
Firbolgs
Voadkyn
Gnolls and their more advanced cousins Flinds
Goblins
Hobgoblins
Lizard Men
Minotaurs {actually a playable race in Dragonlance too}
Mongrelmen
Ogres, H-Ogres and Ogre Magi
Orcs and H-Orcs {H_Orcs were playable as far back as 1st Ed.}
Pixies
Satyrs
Swanmay
Wemics
And all Four Saurial Races of the Forgotten Realms!

Many of these would be overpowered in DDO or are too little known to be worth adding in BUT: Kobolds, Hobgoblins and Flinds {the more advanced Gnolls} should definitely be on Turbine's list for future consideration as Player Characters!
Centaurs would be great to add in.
My first ever D&D Character for a Proper Game {not just me and a mate from school} was a Bullywug {Campaign was Spelljammer and the DM gave me a Vial of Everlasting Water as my one magical item}.
AND
Goblins should definitely be added in as mobs!

Oh and the Satyrs in the Stormhorns are a Joke! - What were the Devs thinking when they reduced them to comic relief?


Extra Planar Races however have not been playable outside of a specific Extra Planar Setting {Planescape} for anything like as long!

Shifters and Changelings were not playable until Eberron was released!
As Specific Playable Races of Eberron it's hard to continue to say no to these BUT my Hatred of Doppleganger style storytelling runs deep!

Kalashtar are simply Humans!
Yes to Psionics - NO to Kalashtar {Just Roleplay that your Human is One!}.



P.S. Devs - You've got your Lizard Men and Troglodytes mixed up - Trogs are the Sewer Dwellers, Lizard Men live near Clean Water - Trogs in Tangleroot and Lizard Men in the Wheloon Sewers is the wrong way round!

[enochiancub]

You were short a few of these in your post. ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! ! !

[TGOskar]

Actually Kobolds have been Playable for over 20 years!

TSR 2135 PHBR10 The Complete Book of Humanoids gives their stats and PC lore alongside those of:

Aarakocra
Alaghi
Beastmen
Bugbears
Advanced Bullywugs
Centaurs
Fremlins
Firbolgs
Voadkyn
Gnolls and their more advanced cousins Flinds
Goblins
Hobgoblins
Lizard Men
Minotaurs {actually a playable race in Dragonlance too}
Mongrelmen
Ogres, H-Ogres and Ogre Magi
Orcs and H-Orcs {H_Orcs were playable as far back as 1st Ed.}
Pixies
Satyrs
Swanmay
Wemics
And all Four Saurial Races of the Forgotten Realms!

Trust me; those aren't the Kobolds people know. Though somewhat subtle, Kobolds have changed a bit from their first incarnation. This is a good example of their change: from "dog/rat/gargoyle" small creatures to reptilians to dragon-blooded reptilians (the latter pretty much in the same edition!).

Though, I suppose that what you mean is "they've been playable since 1st Edition, so they MUST be added before anything else!", to which I say "this isn't a game based on AD&D 1st or AD&D 2nd Edition, or OD&D/BECMI; this is based mostly on the 3.x and 4th Editions of the game, and while the Monster Manual has a bit mentioning how Kobolds can be used as a PC race, their official write-up as PC race is on Races of the Dragon, at least on 3.5. Thus, their claim is not as strong as, say, a Gnome, as they've been part of the game long before the Kobold was (though not as long as the Halfling, which was known as the "Hobbit" then, before problems with the Tolkien estate).

And...if I'm correct about the four "Saurial" races...does that mean the Sarrukh was playable then? Good gods, then Pun-Pun is older than I thought!

Many of these would be overpowered in DDO or are too little known to be worth adding in BUT: Kobolds, Hobgoblins and Flinds {the more advanced Gnolls} should definitely be on Turbine's list for future consideration as Player Characters!
Centaurs would be great to add in.
My first ever D&D Character for a Proper Game {not just me and a mate from school} was a Bullywug {Campaign was Spelljammer and the DM gave me a Vial of Everlasting Water as my one magical item}.
AND
Goblins should definitely be added in as mobs!

Why Flinds and not vanilla Gnolls? Though, I can agree that it should be part of the list of races to be considered; it's just that they'd be in the same "order" of importance as Kobolds.

Centaurs and Minotaurs could be part of a Dragonlance-inspired expansion, though. Both are quite preeminent in that setting compared to the others.

Extra Planar Races however have not been playable outside of a specific Extra Planar Setting {Planescape} for anything like as long!

I presume you don't mean Aasimar and Tieflings as "extraplanar" races, right? Because Aasimar and Tieflings are native outsiders, and thus part of the Material Plane. They're also a choice on the Forgotten Realms campaign setting once it was released on 3rd Edition, and the Aasimar at least are VERY integrated to the world (or as long as Mulhorand existed). That could disregard the Giths and the Buomman, though.

Shifters and Changelings were not playable until Eberron was released!
As Specific Playable Races of Eberron it's hard to continue to say no to these BUT my Hatred of Doppleganger style storytelling runs deep!

This...doesn't explain much.

Personally, I find both races to be quite interesting. Shifters, particularly, are one of my favorite races (alongside Humans, Dwarves, Aasimar, Githzerai and even the odd Gnome), because they give a taste of bestial power without being an anthropomorphic animal or lycanthrope (or quasi-lycanthrope; that's actually a thing in D&D 3.5). They've got their hardships (the Lycanthrope Purge, for example; their struggle with their own instincts, for another) which have shaped their lifestyle into one where self-sufficiency is paramount. If Turbine went all the way to add the Warforged, might as well consider the Shifters as they're easy to add, in comparison to others. Also: Shifters are NOT based on Dopplegangers; they're based on Lycanthropes, and there's "saurian" versions of them, BTW.

On the other hand, Changelings...are cool, but hard to justify. Their core ability (Minor Change Shape) grants no benefit to the character other than a chance to play as someone of a different race but none of the benefits. They'd be good at Bluff and little else. Furthermore, Half-Elves stole their potentially unique thing, as they make the only race other than a Human or Doppleganger to become a Chameleon, the PrC that allows you to dabble in virtually all class' abilities from the Core classes. Don't take me wrong; I like their fluff, but compared to Shifters, Gnomes, Kobolds, Aasimar or Tieflings (or even Genasi, Half-Giants, and the others I mentioned), they're a tad hard to define as part of the game.

Kalashtar are simply Humans!
Yes to Psionics - NO to Kalashtar {Just Roleplay that your Human is One!}.

I...completely resent that comment. It...hints of ignorance, but I definitely presume it must be something else.

Kalashtar, indeed, are genetically identical to humans, except a bit more beautiful. However, they are NOT humans, in the same way...hmm, in the same way a Tau'ri and a Jaffa are different (thought long and hard, but thanks to Stargate SG-1 for the idea). Kalashtar's minds are fundamentally distinct from humans because of the shard of one of the original 70 Quori that escaped from Dal Quor (or rather, 69; Taratai the Founder was apparently completely exterminated and thus returned to Dal Quor). They are innately psionic, for once (not all humans are psionically gifted, but all Kalashtar ARE innately gifted with psychic powers); this is not only represented in their natural psionic power pool, but also on their innate Mindlink spell-like ability. At most, you can say that Kalashtar bodies are fundamentally human, but mentally and spiritually, they are NOT humans at all.

Roleplaying that your human is a Kalashtar simply doesn't cut it. Then again, it's futile to add them as a race if Psionics aren't defined. As it stands, if they manage to make something with the Soulknife, they MIGHT be capable of adding the Kalashtar. IMO, the Monk's reliance on ki is pretty close to psionic energy to allow the Soulknife to use it, and thus you could have a Kalashtar grant some sort of passive bonus to ki (a ki pool bonus, for example). So as long as psionics aren't defined, it's best to keep Kalashtar out; BUT, if Psionics are defined, it's insulting to leave the Kalashtar out because they're physically human-like; Aasimar, Tieflings, and even MONGRELMEN are human-like, and yet they're not humans either. Heck: the AZURIN are more human-like than the Kalashtar...

Two more things: you can't, by any means, assume the Inspired can be waived in the same means. And second, doing this is tantamount to saying "Yes to Small Races - NO to Gnomes {Just Roleplay that your Halfling is One!}"; it's wrong and you should feel bad for saying so.

[die]

I would rather see

1.Half Celestial template

2. Half Demon Template

3. Real wraith and Lich Templates

[Uska]

v3.5 Races of the Dragon disagrees with u.

A completely optional and extremely boring book.

[Oberon_Shrader]

TSR 2135 PHBR10 The Complete Book of Humanoids gives their stats and PC lore alongside those of:

Aarakocra
Alaghi
Beastmen
Bugbears
Advanced Bullywugs
Centaurs
Fremlins
Firbolgs
Voadkyn
Gnolls and their more advanced cousins Flinds
Goblins
Hobgoblins
Lizard Men
Minotaurs {actually a playable race in Dragonlance too}
Mongrelmen
Ogres, H-Ogres and Ogre Magi
Orcs and H-Orcs {H_Orcs were playable as far back as 1st Ed.}
Pixies
Satyrs
Swanmay
Wemics
And all Four Saurial Races of the Forgotten Realms!

Many of these would be overpowered in DDO or are too little known to be worth adding in BUT: Kobolds, Hobgoblins and Flinds {the more advanced Gnolls} should definitely be on Turbine's list for future consideration as Player Characters!
Centaurs would be great to add in.

...

Goblins should definitely be added in as mobs!

I really and truly applaud the referencing and listing of all these races that have been converted to PC possible status.

Centaurs, I really like. I think they are great images of the mythological.

However, I strongly disagree with your shortlist for a new PC race in DDO. Kobolds, hobgoblins, and flinds are still monstrous conversions. And, even though I like centaurs, I would have to put more traditional PC races before them.

That is, races that we're originally designed for PC should take precedence. Gnomes should be at or near the top of the list. Even though I personally don't like them, I have to concede this. Since Dragonborn were developed only in later editions, I can see how some might not want them to be the next race/iconic.

Dragon-blooded (half-dragons, that is, or draconians, if you like) was playable in D&D early on. Moreover, I say again: it bridges the gap between monstrous and humanoid and presents a classic image of D&D.

I like what SirValentine said:
"If you just want any old MMO with filled niches, instead of a Dungeons and Dragons game, there are lots of other options."

Lets not fill the world of DDO with exotic/monstrous races that PCs traditionally only see as enemies! Instead, lets develop the classic D&D feel and then give each of the worlds (so far Eberron and Forgotten Realms) their own flavor!

[dotHackSign]

Aasimar sound good as long as they go back to the drawing board on the paladin otherwise meh.

[Arianka]

A completely optional and extremely boring book.

regardless of its boringness or optionalness it is still "official" and since it tells us kobolds r draconic, they r draconic.



btw...TGOskar, that was a very nice post. well done.

[FranOhmsford]

I
However, I strongly disagree with your shortlist for a new PC race in DDO. Kobolds, hobgoblins, and flinds are still monstrous conversions. And, even though I like centaurs, I would have to put more traditional PC races before them.

That is, races that we're originally designed for PC should take precedence. Gnomes should be at or near the top of the list. Even though I personally don't like them, I have to concede this. Since Dragonborn were developed only in later editions, I can see how some might not want them to be the next race/iconic.

I think I've made it quite clear that I am all for adding Gnomes into DDO {Even if I believe the standard D&D Rock Gnomes to be a little too generic {shorter Dwarves} and weak compared to the other three subrace choices {or indeed the Zil Gnomes of Eberron who I know little about}.

Draconians however... I don't recall Draconians being Playable in Dragonlance - They were specifically Monsters and the main Enemy of the Storyline.

Half Dragons were not codified until Council of Wyrms in the Mid to late 1990s!



I said Flinds because they are more civilized and intelligent than their cousins, in the same way as PC Bullywugs were of the "Advanced Bullywug" Caste.
Flinds are also Shorter and stockier than standard Gnolls and therefore not as difficult for the Devs to add in as a PC Race {Admittedly they do already have the Base Gnoll Skin but converting to PC requires more than just the base}.



I'd love to see real Orc PCs but H-Orc has made that Pointless.


Hobgoblins as shown in DDO and with Eberron Lore are a natural 2nd Choice.



As for Kobolds - At least two Turbine Employees have commented on these forums about my suggestion {Many moons ago} to bring out "The Little People" Pack where we would gain Gnome and Kobold PCs as well as an influx of Goblin Mobs.
Lore Wise: Goblins would invade the Stormreach Sewers forcing the Kobolds into the Light - Goldscuttle would lead the Kobold Resistance ably abetted by Edlin {Sorc Trainer in the Harbour} and The One {FvS Trainer in the Marketplace}.



Oh and Yes I was counting Aasimar and Tieflings as Extra-Planar Races - They may be able to live on the Prime Material Plane but their Providence is Definitely Extra-Planar.
BTW Like H-Elves I always assumed them to be Sterile or at least Not Viable as a True Species.



As to Kalashtar - This is DDO {an MMO} NOT PnP - Adding Kalashtar in as a playable race simply doesn't make sense - Especially when Everyone and His Dog will be able to Use Psionics if they are added in!
Knowing Turbine Kalashtar wouldn't even be in the Top 3 Races as a choice for Psionicist!
Just look at H-Orcs and Druids and take a look at all the Orc Druid NPCs in Stormreach!
Just look at H-Orc being the go to race for ACROBATS! {Pre Enhancement Pass of course}.
Just look at the insanity of Warforged becoming the go to race for Arcanes and barely a flavour Build for Melee! {Now we've got Eldritch Knight and Warpriest - FINALLY - Things are making a bit more sense}.

[Satyriasys]

Just look at H-Orcs and Druids and take a look at all the Orc Druid NPCs in Stormreach!

The Gatekeepers are a druidic sect dedicated to keeping Eberron free of "unnatural" external influences, and this order has battled extraplanar invasions and aberrations for centuries. The Gatekeepers are the oldest druidic tradition on the continent of Khorvaire, having descended from the followers of Vvaraak, a black dragon that taught orcs in the Shadow Marches the secrets to the natural world 15,000 years ago

[HungarianRhapsody]

Races being "overpowered/underpowered" for their stat bonuses seems pretty irrelevant to me. If they have "too much" stats, then just give them fewer stat points to allocate like Drow.

I'd like to see Aasimar and Tieflings, but the stat points "problem" is easy to fix.

[FranOhmsford]

The Gatekeepers are a druidic sect dedicated to keeping Eberron free of "unnatural" external influences, and this order has battled extraplanar invasions and aberrations for centuries. The Gatekeepers are the oldest druidic tradition on the continent of Khorvaire, having descended from the followers of Vvaraak, a black dragon that taught orcs in the Shadow Marches the secrets to the natural world 15,000 years ago

Exactly!!!

And how many H-Orc Druids have you seen in Stormreach or Eveningstar this past year? {Compared to say H-Elf or Human}.

Heck you've probably seen more Warforged Druids than H-Orc Druids!

[harry-pancreas]

inncorrect also standard 3.5 gnomes get con ok in 2nd they did get int didnt really know and it doesnt matter since we arent playing 2nd ed

AD&D gnomes: +1 int - 1 wis
3.5 gnome: +2dex -2str
4th ed: No idea, do not play comp games with paper and pencil, i do it with comps :P

[harry-pancreas]

regardless of its boringness or optionalness it is still "official" and since it tells us kobolds r draconic, they r draconic.



btw...TGOskar, that was a very nice post. well done.

meh, kobolds are dogs :P