New cookies: the trend of lazy design and shifting casters/dex melees continues

[Wizza]

You make concentration checks in epic elite on a fighter?

If you are playing EEs it means you have a bit of knowledge of the quest you are doing and cast Displacement as you run toward a group of mobs.

If the quest is your first time on EE, you just try to keep yourself displaced and/or, if you have limited clickies, you cast it as soon as you see the above group of mobs.

In any scenario, you don't need 10 seconds to cast displacement. Don't even need 5.

[Lonnbeimnech]

You make concentration checks in epic elite on a fighter?

Shroud clickies, gives 2 clicks of displacement that lasts 1:36, only uses small and medium ingredients, so they are cheap to make a few of them. and there is no concentration check for clickies.

[pasterqb]

Is this even serious?

AC? Useless on 99% of the toons.
Reflex saves: good point but no fail can be achieved by Fighters splashed pallies/monk.
Balance skill: lol.

I like how you dismiss Tactics DC btw, very clever

I mentioned Tactics? If only the public education system taught you better. Also 99% of toons are you serious? 2011 DDO called.

No fail can be achieved by pure all Str based dps toons? Seriously? Whats no fail in your brain cause content i run you need well over 70.

Also like i said tactics is great but seeing as how its USELESS on Red Names its not great. Who cares about trash? I don't: seeing as how if i wanted trash dead i would bring my 80 Necro DC Wizard

Also Dex does make you invincible seeing as how you can no fail on a 1 for reflex and with a high save no DC based dmg spell can touch you. You might be a good journalist seeing as how you like to quote out of context

[FestusHood]

If you are playing EEs it means you have a bit of knowledge of the quest you are doing and cast Displacement as you run toward a group of mobs.

If the quest is your first time on EE, you just try to keep yourself displaced and/or, if you have limited clickies, you cast it as soon as you see the above group of mobs.

In any scenario, you don't need 10 seconds to cast displacement. Don't even need 5.

I'll admit i have limited experience with epic elite. I'm going by what others have said, and by the damage numbers i've seen in the few epic elites i've played.

The one guy i've run any epic elites with was an elven fighter, so i was displaced all the time anyway.

I did carry tensors scrolls. Almost never used them. Even at one minute per use, the tedium of constantly refreshing it meant it was more of a special occasion kind of thing.

Carried rage pots, rarely bothered to use them. At that level, the effect is just so negligible.

Heal scrolls are another thing. Almost never used them. Silver flame pots seem to work a lot better for me, since i don't have to disengage to use them. To each his own.

[Ungood]

Yup, I've no idea how to run an end-game based DC caster.

The fact that Monkchers and ranged builds are so OP is another problem. The fact that they are OP shouldn't close the door to more means to increase DEX for melee dex builds. The solution would be to nerf Ranged and then give us Dex boosts, which I don't have a problem with.

Now, about the "amazing and overwhelming power that casters posses" I just have one word: lol.

Eh.. until you do the same with a pure melee build.. the jokes on you for proving the power of casters.. have a good one.

[Wizza]

I mentioned Tactics? If only the public education system taught you better. Also 99% of toons are you serious? 2011 DDO called.

No fail can be achieved by pure all Str based dps toons? Seriously? Whats no fail in your brain cause content i run you need well over 70.

Also like i said tactics is great but seeing as how its USELESS on Red Names its not great. Who cares about trash? I don't: seeing as how if i wanted trash dead i would bring my 80 Necro DC Wizard

Also Dex does make you invincible seeing as how you can no fail on a 1 for reflex and with a high save no DC based dmg spell can touch you. You might be a good journalist seeing as how you like to quote out of context

You need to re-read your post.

Yes you did.
No fail tactics? Where did I say that? Can you quote me please?
Who cares about trash? Really? Are we talking about the same game? Stormhorns has well over 100 trash mobs in every single quest. Looks like you are playing a different game than me
Where did I ask for 100 Dex? Quote me again please.

Keep pulling things out of thin air, it's an amusing read at least.

[FestusHood]

Shroud clickies, gives 2 clicks of displacement that lasts 1:36, only uses small and medium ingredients, so they are cheap to make a few of them. and there is no concentration check for clickies.

I have a couple of those, they are nice in some situations. Can't see myself carrying 12 of them though.

[Wizza]

Eh.. until you do the same with a pure melee build.. the jokes on you for proving the power of casters.. have a good one.

So splashes are not melee build anymore? Good to know. I'll make fun of my friends toon at least!

2 re-entries prove the power of the casters? Well, we really see different things. Look at the others WGU solos. You will see some Flawless and Persistance bonus there

[FestusHood]

I guess the point i'm trying to make is that there is really only a huge disparity between strength and dex if you are willing to go through a long list of clicky activation every minute or two.

There are quite a few people like me, who either disdain the use of, or just don't have access to, some of these buffs.

I guess i just wasn't born to be a hardcore min maxer.

[pasterqb]

You need to re-read your post.

Yes you did.
No fail tactics? Where did I say that? Can you quote me please?
Who cares about trash? Really? Are we talking about the same game? Stormhorns has well over 100 trash mobs in every single quest. Looks like you are playing a different game than me
Where did I ask for 100 Dex? Quote me again please.

Keep pulling things out of thin air, it's an amusing read at least.

Ok Done

Just look at the DDO Book of records. Now, that record is kinda old but I'm pretty sure we could get higher that 58 Dex but there is no way DEX will even be able to reach 100. And STR was back then already 60 (SIXTY) points higher with every single limited buff running.

100 and Dex in LITERALLY THE SAME SENTENCE FROM YOU.

100 Trash mobs is great but do you know nothing about the millions of hp the red names in a single quest have? Not to mention it takes 45ish sp to kill 6 epic elite mobs on my wizard so what 750ish sp to kill 100 mobs. Takes a lot more to kill an end boss.

You didnt say no fail tactics but if you ever have read the forums or played this game you should know thats what the goal of everyone is. Why build for mediocrity?

And what i said and i quote "Dex makes you invincible(to dmg spells and highly resistant to physical dmg)" The parentheses part is obviously if you ever read an article common knowledge'applied. Only an idiot would think it meant immune to physical damage.

But like you posted the link before you play sorc which is damage i play wizard which is trash. I can kill trash 100 times easier than you so i don't care about it and you can outdps me versus bosses so you dont care about it.

[Wizza]

Ok Done



100 and Dex in LITERALLY THE SAME SENTENCE FROM YOU.

100 Trash mobs is great but do you know nothing about the millions of hp the red names in a single quest have? Not to mention it takes 45ish sp to kill 6 epic elite mobs on my wizard so what 750ish sp to kill 100 mobs. Takes a lot more to kill an end boss.

You didnt say no fail tactics but if you ever have read the forums or played this game you should know thats what the goal of everyone is. Why build for mediocrity?

And what i said and i quote "Dex makes you invincible(to dmg spells and highly resistant to physical dmg)" The parentheses part is obviously if you ever read an article common knowledge'applied. Only an idiot would think it meant immune to physical damage.

But like you posted the link before you play sorc which is damage i play wizard which is trash. I can kill trash 100 times easier than you so i don't care about it and you can outdps me versus bosses so you dont care about it.

Wait what? And that quote should prove that I said that I want 100 Dex? o_O I said it won't be even able to reach 100, not that I want 100. They are two different things. In fact, I never asked Dex to reach STR numbers, just some boosts to a lacking stat.

If you have viable DCs your DPS will be enough for every red named in game. I really don't see what you are trying to prove here. You are saying tactics are useless because 1% of the quest (red named) can't be stunned? What?

So, I'm saying "Hi" but what I meant is actually "Hi (how are you? How is your family?)". You don't make any sense. High resistant to physical dmg? You talking about AC?

[Wizza]

I guess the point i'm trying to make is that there is really only a huge disparity between strength and dex if you are willing to go through a long list of clicky activation every minute or two.

There are quite a few people like me, who either disdain the use of, or just don't have access to, some of these buffs.

I guess i just wasn't born to be a hardcore min maxer.

The point I'm trying to make you understand is that you don't need a long list of clicky activation to have such a huge disparity.

Primal Scream, Titans Grip, Divine Might are 3 really easy examples that gives you a total of +5, +6 and between +4 and +15 STR = 15/26 STR. And you only need 2 Pal levels for it, 1 item and 1 Twist. Now, think about everything else in the game and see how this disparity is even worse than it looks.

[FestusHood]

The point I'm trying to make you understand is that you don't need a long list of clicky activation to have such a huge disparity.

Primal Scream, Titans Grip, Divine Might are 3 really easy examples that gives you a total of +5, +6 and between +4 and +15 STR = 15/26 STR. And you only need 2 Pal levels for it, 1 item and 1 Twist. Now, think about everything else in the game and see how this disparity is even worse than it looks.

Titan's grip is definitely a clicky. Three uses at one minute. Recharges one per rest. Not even close to what i would consider a permanent buff.

I know all the epic elite min maxers consider 2 pally levels to be as required as the toughness feat used to be. So here's my advice. If you're into making maxed out gimmick builds, dont go dex.

[Wizza]

Titan's grip is definitely a clicky. Three uses at one minute. Recharges one per rest. Not even close to what i would consider a permanent buff.

I know all the epic elite min maxers consider 2 pally levels to be as required as the toughness feat used to be. So here's my advice. If you're into making maxed out gimmick builds, dont go dex.

And I'M putting temporary boosts in my numbers. Why shouldn't I?

I want to be a min-maxxer Dex build, what's wrong with that? They made Dex-to-dmg, give us a way to increase Dex to a reasonable amount and not 30 points of damage of difference. I will not have any real advantage besides Reflex saves, which can be easily got on a STR build as well. Just look around in the forum, there are already str melees builds that achieve no-fail Ref save.

[taurean430]

I have to ask, are people really doing all this clicking for boosts all the time? My god that sounds tedious.

Okay. I'll not be arbitrary about it. But I don't find it to be tedious at all. No different in multitasking than playing a divine for example for me.

Displacement scrolls? Is there some new ability i missed that makes them last longer than 30 seconds? If not, are you telling me that every 30 seconds, you spend 10 seconds to run somewhere you won't get hit, (since you won't make a concentration check) swap to a scroll, activate it, then go back into combat for another whopping 30 seconds? If this is what it takes to be uber i don't want to be uber.

I used them all the time with my pally for example in CiTW. Especially during the first Loth battle with Bebiliths running around everywhere. You jump cast it. I've found in my play that it takes no time away from dps. Because I'm using them as I move from mob group to mob group.

As for all the stacking bonuses to strength, i have a similar question. Are people really using all these little boosts all the time?

All the time? No. For special situations where I know that I need to maximize my dps, absolutely. Usually about 3-4 times in a run. Things like Tenser's scrolls get used constantly however.

Lets look at a simple one. Titans grip. One minute clicky. You almost certainly aren't wearing those gloves all the times, which means it's a swap item, or as i call it, a three clicker.

Yes indeed, it is used as a swap item for many of my toons. Not worth keeping statically slotted for any reason I can think of.

So you see a mob you could attack, and say " oh gosh, i better activate my titans grip clicky" swap, click, swap. With the delays, takes a minimum of 5 seconds. I guarantee you have lost more dps than this provides by not hitting the mob for 5 seconds.

I'd disagree here. On the character I mentioned I can hit Titan's, Throw a Tenser's Scroll, etc while moving from one mob group to the next.

I'll use a one click clicky. I don't tend to use three click clickys, especially ones with very short durations.

That's really not unusual. Many folks playing melee these days are overwhelmed by clickie destiny abilities. Considering adding more swapping/clicking into the mix might give them rickets.

[redspecter23]

And I'M putting temporary boosts in my numbers. Why shouldn't I?

I want to be a min-maxxer Dex build, what's wrong with that? They made Dex-to-dmg, give us a way to increase Dex to a reasonable amount and not 30 points of damage of difference. I will not have any real advantage besides Reflex saves, which can be easily got on a STR build as well. Just look around in the forum, there are already str melees builds that achieve no-fail Ref save.

I think there does need to be at least a few more stackable dex buffs added. The 2/3 strength ratio mentioned earlier would probably be a good place to start. There's nothing more disappointing than having the best dex damage toon in the world, then toss on some collateral buffs like +8 str item, primal scream, etc. and your strength ends up higher than your dex anyway. Really makes all that effort feel like it was for nothing.

[Ungood]

So splashes are not melee build anymore? Good to know. I'll make fun of my friends toon at least!

2 re-entries prove the power of the casters? Well, we really see different things. Look at the others WGU solos. You will see some Flawless and Persistance bonus there

I am sure people have soloed it, but, that does not change the fact that melee builds are a vast disadvantage to casters and currently archers bring to the table. If you really think they are even close in power levels, that would just mean you are totally out of touch of what it takes to play at least one of them.

And.. LOL, no, I hate to break it to you, but as a player with a pure fighter and a 12 fighter/8 cleric those 8 cleric levels augmented the power of the build off the charts in contrast to what the pure fighter could output, which is why being able to mix classes is such a massive game changer for DDO as opposed to many other games where you are stuck with one class for life, and that single feature changes the rules so much.

Which is again, an advantage of the epic game, where ED's are literally akin to splashing other class like abilities into a build, which is how they helped the melee builds become even somewhat competitive in the end game, by giving them more caster like qualities.

Which brings us back to another little issue, if you want power, then you should play what works, if you want flavor, then deal with what you get, that is the very nature of opting to play a flavor build to start with, knowing everything is already stacked against you and then making it work.

The reality is, Dex, Cha, Int, Wis, won't be seeing any massive jumps to make them anywhere near close to what Str has anytime soon, due to the massive power that the classes that focus on those stats already possess.

Such is the way the game is.

[Wizza]

I think there does need to be at least a few more stackable dex buffs added. The 2/3 strength ratio mentioned earlier would probably be a good place to start. There's nothing more disappointing than having the best dex damage toon in the world, then toss on some collateral buffs like +8 str item, primal scream, etc. and your strength ends up higher than your dex anyway. Really makes all that effort feel like it was for nothing.

Pretty much.

I am sure people have soloed it, but, that does not change the fact that melee builds are a vast disadvantage to casters and currently archers bring to the table. If you really think they are even close in power levels, that would just mean you are totally out of touch of what it takes to play at least one of them.

And.. LOL, no, I hate to break it to you, but as a player with a pure fighter and a 12 fighter/8 cleric those 8 cleric levels augmented the power of the build off the charts in contrast to what the pure fighter could output, which is why being able to mix classes is such a massive game changer for DDO as opposed to many other games where you are stuck with one class for life, and that single feature changes the rules so much.

Which is again, an advantage of the epic game, where ED's are literally akin to splashing other class like abilities into a build, which is how they helped the melee builds become even somewhat competitive in the end game, by giving them more caster like qualities.

Which brings us back to another little issue, if you want power, then you should play what works, if you want flavor, then deal with what you get, that is the very nature of opting to play a flavor build to start with, knowing everything is already stacked against you and then making it work.

The reality is, Dex, Cha, Int, Wis, won't be seeing any massive jumps to make them anywhere near close to what Str has anytime soon, due to the massive power that the classes that focus on those stats already possess.

Such is the way the game is.

I'm not sure where you get the idea that I think pure builds are better?

Anyway, back to the point, why would I shouldn't be able to mix flavor with power? I mean, is asking for some Dex cookies, Dex boosts, Dex clickies such a game breaker? The truth is it's not, it would be just fair. And why you still think as Dex-to-dmg as flavor builds? It was before, now it's not anymore. It's one of the alternatives that Devs gave us but at the moment it is the weakest choice.

And again, I don't want Dex to reach Str numbers. I want it to be 2/3 of what STR can achieve. At the moment, it does not.

Oh and casters < melees < ranged in the current endgame due to longevity of quests and numbers of mobs in each of them. Of course I'm talking about very good builds AND players, not mediocres.

[moo_cow]

I mentioned Tactics? If only the public education system taught you better. Also 99% of toons are you serious? 2011 DDO called.

No fail can be achieved by pure all Str based dps toons? Seriously? Whats no fail in your brain cause content i run you need well over 70.

Also like i said tactics is great but seeing as how its USELESS on Red Names its not great. Who cares about trash? I don't: seeing as how if i wanted trash dead i would bring my 80 Necro DC Wizard

Also Dex does make you invincible seeing as how you can no fail on a 1 for reflex and with a high save no DC based dmg spell can touch you. You might be a good journalist seeing as how you like to quote out of context

everything you say seems to be 100% correct

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Yup. AC matters more than Tactics. Ok.

You quoted me, but seam to argue with someone in your head...

Tactics are useful only for 1% of the builds. Sure.

STR tactics. I know exactly 0% players that use them in endgame ee's. Maby you know a whole comunity i somehow missed?

I'd disagree here. On the character I mentioned I can hit Titan's, Throw a Tenser's Scroll, etc while moving from one mob group to the next.

And displace right? All in the way to the next group... Cool. Stars seam to be aligned permanently where you came from.

The point I'm trying to make you understand is that you don't need a long list of clicky activation to have such a huge disparity.

Primal Scream, Titans Grip, Divine Might are 3 really easy examples that gives you a total of +5, +6 and between +4 and +15 STR = 15/26 STR. And you only need 2 Pal levels for it, 1 item and 1 Twist. Now, think about everything else in the game and see how this disparity is even worse than it looks.

Just a twist? You seam to have those in abundance, can i have some?

I'd also like to know how you got to that max. of +15 str from d.might. Bet you twisted at least 3 charismas :P