New cookies: the trend of lazy design and shifting casters/dex melees continues

[redspecter23]

Theoretically yes 75% AC protection sounds good but, at what cost? How many dedicated AC gear slots? How many feats? Where is your DPS?

even if you could reach 100% AC protection and no monster ever land a blow what is the point if you can't hold the agro because, you can't do any damage?

Well if someone could theoretically reach 100% damage avoidance, I'm sure there would be quite a few very good uses for that, even if you have to walk away from the computer and grab a snack while you autoattack 150 epic elite mobs. Just because you can't hold aggro, doesn't mean the ability wouldn't be broken. It would just be broken in a really slow way.

To get back on topic


Cookies.

What do you suppose the owlbear cookies do or do not stack with? It's a rage bonus. Does that mimic barbarian rage? Would it prohibit casting in the same way? If it is basically a small barb rage, then it's useless for barbarians. That would make some people angry too I suppose.

[taurean430]

I think the relevancy is found in comparing Str boosts that stack vs. Dex/Int/Wis/Cha that are available in the game. When tallied, it's horribly lopsided and caters only to Str based builds.

[era42]

You could have a 0 AC and still only be hit 28% of the time. If you could get even as high as a 50% avoidance from AC on top of all this, that AC would only be adding 14% extra protection

This is a common fallacy in apparent/effective value of percentages.

If you get hit 28% of the time, over 100 hits you get hit 28 times. Add 50% avoidance from AC and that drops to 14 hits. So, 50% AC drops 50% of remaining hits, regardless of your other sources of def. Sure, it's only 14% from the original, but it's 50% less hits compared to no AC and 100% more time to live or 100% longer before you need a heal.

The problem is not in the effect of AC: if you get a reasonable AC, it helps as much as the AC proponents say. The problem is the difficulty in getting the reasonable AC for EE, which indeed makes AC useless for most of the builds.

[Skavenaps]

NEW: We have added a couple of new Cookies:
Owlbear Cookie
Available from both the Jester of Festivult (for 1 Gold Coin) and Jolias Leftfield (Eveningstar Midwinter Festival Barter) (for 280 Motes of Winter).
“This cookie will bestow the strength and hardiness of 100 angry owlbears. Eating this cookie will grant a +4 Rage Bonus to both Strength and Constitution.”

Shadow Cookie
Available from both the Jester of Festivult (for 1 Gold Coin) and Jolias Leftfield (Eveningstar Midwinter Festival Barter) (for 280 Motes of Winter).
“This cookie is so bad that consuming it feels akin to death, temporarily stripping away your physical form and leaving you a shadow of your former self. Eating this cookie will grant Shadow Form, making you insubstantial, giving you 25% incorporeality, letting you float as if affected by featherfall, providing bonuses to hide, move silently and tumble, as well as letting you deal strength damage on melee and ranged critical hits.”

Shar, Mistress of the Night Cookie
Available from Jolias Leftfield (Eveningstar Midwinter Festival Barter) (for 120 Motes of Winter).
“This cookie allows you to bring darkness down upon nearby enemies. Eating this cookie will blind nearby enemies for a short time.”


+4 Rage bonus to STR and Con.
+25% Incorporeality
Blindness

Really..just a copy paste from everything else in game. Same as the new Epic Past life feats.

Also, why do melees keep getting bonus to STR and CON and casters/dex melees get NOTHING EVERY SINGLE TIME? Give us cookies that raise INT, WIS, CHA AND DEX. What's so hard about that?

STR melees have/have had already this:

Warforged Titan Cookie Titan's Grip, CL:15 - +6 Psionic bonus to STR
Hezrou Cookie Infernal Power, CL:10 - +4 STR/DEX/CON

Then they have Primal Scream for YET ANOTHER +5 STR/CON for a total of +6 +4 +5 +4 = 19 STR and 13 CON. And Dex just have that little +4. And I will not count every other single enhancement that gives STR but not DEX.

You made Dex-to-dmg viable in game. Now give us the means to increase it with little boosts like these ones.


Now about Casters:

They have to chug FIVE different cookies just to get a +4 CHA/INT/WIS. It's boring, it's stupid, it's too limited. Why can't we have something like Primal Scream for Casters?

About time you stop giving every single limited buff to STR based melees and give something to EVERYONE ELSE in game.

Sure, lets give DEX a boost and put some more options to put in on pair with STR. But, before, let me add STR to Ref,AC and some other places. Now we can call this even.

[Wizza]

Sure, lets give DEX a boost and put some more options to put in on pair with STR. But, before, let me add STR to Ref,AC and some other places. Now we can call this even.

Again this stupid argument.

STR gives you Tactics DC.

DEX gives you AC which is useless and Reflex saves, which a no-fail can be achieved even on STR Fighters splashes.
Tactics DC (as well as everything else in the game) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>....> AC. Get over it.

Also, I love how you say "some other places" when in fact Dex only counts for AC and Ref saves. Nice try thou.


Now can anyone else that wants to comment on this avoid this stupid argument? Dex needs a boost, in one way or another.

STR not only can be MUCH higher (we are talking about 20~ points of damage here, not little numbers) but it is also a pre-requisite for Overwhelming critical, the best feat for every melee out there. Now, DEX builds will have MUCH MORE troubles to get it (along with the feat pre-requisites) and Dex builds will have MUCH LOWER Tactics DC.

Much higher damage, OC, Tactics DC compared to Reflex saves.

They made it viable in the game. Now time to show some love to dex based builds.

[oradafu]

I just see this as another one of the Devs, one step forward and three steps back.

Sure, the Devs listened to players by giving players all sorts of new ways besides STR to use weapons via the new Enhancement trees and Iconics. But then they turned around and made it nearly impossible to fully incorporated non-STR based characters into the game.

Want to make a CHA based Purple Dragon Knight? Choices like Paladin and Bard seem like obvious choices, but Bardic Rage is STR based and Divine Might was changed to STR based also.

I see these cookies in a similar way. The Devs talked a good game of wanting to make the game more diverse with non-STR based melee builds since player have been asking for them, but they aren't making any of the new boosts (or changing old boosts like Divine Might) or tangent items useful for those builds.

[Skavenaps]

Again this stupid argument.

STR gives you Tactics DC.

DEX gives you AC which is useless and Reflex saves, which a no-fail can be achieved even on STR Fighters splashes.
Tactics DC (as well as everything else in the game) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>....> AC. Get over it.

Also, I love how you say "some other places" when in fact Dex only counts for AC and Ref saves. Nice try thou.


Now can anyone else that wants to comment on this avoid this stupid argument? Dex needs a boost, in one way or another.

STR not only can be MUCH higher (we are talking about 20~ points of damage here, not little numbers) but it is also a pre-requisite for Overwhelming critical, the best feat for every melee out there. Now, DEX builds will have MUCH MORE troubles to get it (along with the feat pre-requisites) and Dex builds will have MUCH LOWER Tactics DC.

Much higher damage, OC, Tactics DC compared to Reflex saves.

They made it viable in the game. Now time to show some love to dex based builds.

hahahaha that must be the joke of the day.

tactics usefull? the ONLY tactics that means are the one that Monks use, and that ones that not even use STR, they use WIS. so really i dont know what kind of "stupid argument" (using your own words) are you trying to giveme.

Yeah, im going to invest on Sunder on my fighter (lol) and im going to use Stunning blow when the DC is WORST than Stunning Fist and have more CD.

Oh my, at least giveme some logic arguments.

i dont care how LOW/BAD/WORST are the extra benefit DEX gives. If you can applie DEX to hit and damage, i want applie the STR to ref and AC.

[taurean430]

hahahaha that must be the joke of the day.

tactics usefull? the ONLY tactics that means are the one that Monks use, and that ones that not even use STR, they use WIS. so really i dont know what kind of "stupid argument" (using your own words) are you trying to giveme.

Yeah, im going to invest on Sunder on my fighter (lol) and im going to use Stunning blow when the DC is WORST than Stunning Fist and have more CD.

Oh my, at least giveme some logic arguments.

i dont care how LOW/BAD/WORST are the extra benefit DEX gives. If you can applie DEX to hit and damage, i want applie the STR to ref and AC.

This is not how D&D is designed. You should be aware of that.

It wasn't designed either to have insane amounts of stacking bonues to the Str score. And if this is the direction that Turbine has taken with Str based melee, it is not unreasonable - in fact it's fair to request that other types of builds have access to stacking bonuses in their primary stat as well. To suggest otherwise is quantify your tunnel vision.

Dex builds would achieve comparable to hit and damage numbers with Str based toons. Int/Char/Wis builds would be able to use their abilites better. These are not permanent bonuses, they are temporary and finite.

Facts are Str based builds, who were already at a huge advantage, are taking Clr/Pal levels for divine might. It's also a fact that achieving no fail saves for EE content can be obtained by taking 2 Pal. So, things you already shouldn't have you do. Everyone else deserves something as well.

[Wizza]

hahahaha that must be the joke of the day.

tactics usefull? the ONLY tactics that means are the one that Monks use, and that ones that not even use STR, they use WIS. so really i dont know what kind of "stupid argument" (using your own words) are you trying to giveme.

Yeah, im going to invest on Sunder on my fighter (lol) and im going to use Stunning blow when the DC is WORST than Stunning Fist and have more CD.

Oh my, at least giveme some logic arguments.

i dont care how LOW/BAD/WORST are the extra benefit DEX gives. If you can applie DEX to hit and damage, i want applie the STR to ref and AC.

Ok.

Tactics are not usefull. Sense, you make none.

[Skavenaps]

This is not how D&D is designed. You should be aware of that.

It wasn't designed either to have insane amounts of stacking bonues to the Str score. And if this is the direction that Turbine has taken with Str based melee, it is not unreasonable - in fact it's fair to request that other types of builds have access to stacking bonuses in their primary stat as well. To suggest otherwise is quantify your tunnel vision.

Dex builds would achieve comparable to hit and damage numbers with Str based toons. Int/Char/Wis builds would be able to use their abilites better. These are not permanent bonuses, they are temporary and finite.

Facts are Str based builds, who were already at a huge advantage, are taking Clr/Pal levels for divine might. It's also a fact that achieving no fail saves for EE content can be obtained by taking 2 Pal. So, things you already shouldn't have you do. Everyone else deserves something as well.

i never mentioned D&D, that idea its just on your head.

DDO and D&d are diferents systems. Maybe some years ago was more similar. Today are not.

An epic feat to not fail saves on "1"? well on d&d theres on feat that makes you dont fails fortitude saves on 1 and let you add CON bonus instead of WIS to will saves (bull something i seem was the name). So, yeah D&D have also forms to make melee nearly unstoppable, thats nothing new.

[taurean430]

i never mentioned D&D, that idea its just on your head.

DDO and D&d are diferents systems. Maybe some years ago was more similar. Today are not.

An epic feat to not fail saves on "1"? well on d&d theres on feat that makes you dont fails fortitude saves on 1 and let you add CON bonus instead of WIS to will saves (bull something i seem was the name). So, yeah D&D have also forms to make melee nearly unstoppable, thats nothing new.

Thanks for reinforcing my point

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Ok.

Tactics are not usefull. Sense, you make none.

STR tactics are not usefull for 99% of the builds. Try to make a breakdown for a >60 DC and you will see how much diversity you will have left for your build.

On the other hand any AC does matter, requires no gear, no feats, no class splits to have effect. Same with reflex.

Another important thing to think about is elf. Having both great range and melee with no need for a ranger split is huge.

[Wizza]

STR tactics are not usefull for 99% of the builds. Try to make a breakdown for a >60 DC and you will see how much diversity you will have left for your build.

On the other hand any AC does matter, requires no gear, no feats, no class splits to have effect. Same with reflex.

Another important thing to think about is elf. Having both great range and melee with no need for a ranger split is huge.

Yup. AC matters more than Tactics. Ok.
Tactics are useful only for 1% of the builds. Sure.


Next you are going to tell me that Charisma is the least important Stat for a Sorcerer.

[Ungood]

This has to do with the amazing and overwhelming power that casters posses in this game, a high STR score is nothing against the ability to single cast kill a mob from across a room. That is why Int/Cha/Wis will not be given additional stacking means, they are already downright insanely powerful, and anyone who really thinks otherwise has not run with or made a decent DC based caster.

The advantage of ranged combat right now in the end game makes it so that dex builds rule the game from Monkchers or just run on the mill AA's, they have the edge, and flavor builds that might want to do melee based Dex-damage builds (and lets be real, who makes this kind of build if not for the off the wall flavor of it anyway?), do not make up enough of the game to give AA's and ranged based builds additional power points, when they are already leaps and bounds ahead of what most melee can accomplish.

Melee builds have been nothing but nerfed till the ED'a came out, and even then, they are still vastly under powered in relation to ranged and caster based builds in the current end game, even with what you might think are all these stat mods.

When they even out the disparity in power among the classes (Which will be never) then you all can cry rivers about how the mods need to be balanced as well.

[taurean430]

This has to do with the amazing and overwhelming power that casters posses in this game, a high STR score is nothing against the ability to single cast kill a mob from across a room. That is why Int/Cha/Wis will not be given additional stacking means, they are already downright insanely powerful, and anyone who really thinks otherwise has not run with or made a decent DC based caster.

The advantage of ranged combat right now in the end game makes it so that dex builds rule the game from Monkchers or just run on the mill AA's, they have the edge, and flavor builds that might want to do melee based Dex-damage builds (and lets be real, who makes this kind of build if not for the off the wall flavor of it anyway?), do not make up enough of the game to give AA's and ranged based builds additional power points, when they are already leaps and bounds ahead of what most melee can accomplish.

Melee builds have been nothing but nerfed till the ED'a came out, and even then, they are still vastly under powered in relation to ranged and caster based builds in the current end game, even with what you might think are all these stat mods.

When they even out the disparity in power among the classes (Which will be never) then you all can cry rivers about how the mods need to be balanced as well.

They do need to be rebalanced. For example my 13 life max geared caster has to spend sp like water with the number of failed spells. My melee bard, by comparison has a stunning blow with a 5% fail rate thanks to... dun dun da dah - stacking stat boosting clickies!

The amazing caster power you describe exists in heroic levels, and epic normal/epic hard. Not epic elite, which is what my caster was built for. Ranged builds I won't argue with. I actually like how they are balanced atm.

[Havok.cry]

Str adds to:
Melee damage
Melee to hit
thrown weapon damage
Swim
jump
Trip resist
carry cap
lever/door opening
Tactic DCs
Opening locks for horcs

Dex adds to:
Reflex saves
AC
Melee to hit
Melee damage
ranged to hit
ranged damage for elves
thrown weapon to hit
Hide
Move Silently
tumble
balance
open lock
some DCs for certain races and classes

If I were to be the one balancing the two I would leave dex at ~ 2/3 the available strength. That is all I have to say.

[FestusHood]

I have to ask, are people really doing all this clicking for boosts all the time? My god that sounds tedious.

Displacement scrolls? Is there some new ability i missed that makes them last longer than 30 seconds? If not, are you telling me that every 30 seconds, you spend 10 seconds to run somewhere you won't get hit, (since you won't make a concentration check) swap to a scroll, activate it, then go back into combat for another whopping 30 seconds? If this is what it takes to be uber i don't want to be uber.

As for all the stacking bonuses to strength, i have a similar question. Are people really using all these little boosts all the time?

Lets look at a simple one. Titans grip. One minute clicky. You almost certainly aren't wearing those gloves all the times, which means it's a swap item, or as i call it, a three clicker.

So you see a mob you could attack, and say " oh gosh, i better activate my titans grip clicky" swap, click, swap. With the delays, takes a minimum of 5 seconds. I guarantee you have lost more dps than this provides by not hitting the mob for 5 seconds.

I'll use a one click clicky. I don't tend to use three click clickys, especially ones with very short durations.

[Vellrad]

If it takes you 10 seconds to use a scroll, you're doing something wrong.

[Wizza]

This has to do with the amazing and overwhelming power that casters posses in this game, a high STR score is nothing against the ability to single cast kill a mob from across a room. That is why Int/Cha/Wis will not be given additional stacking means, they are already downright insanely powerful, and anyone who really thinks otherwise has not run with or made a decent DC based caster.

The advantage of ranged combat right now in the end game makes it so that dex builds rule the game from Monkchers or just run on the mill AA's, they have the edge, and flavor builds that might want to do melee based Dex-damage builds (and lets be real, who makes this kind of build if not for the off the wall flavor of it anyway?), do not make up enough of the game to give AA's and ranged based builds additional power points, when they are already leaps and bounds ahead of what most melee can accomplish.

Melee builds have been nothing but nerfed till the ED'a came out, and even then, they are still vastly under powered in relation to ranged and caster based builds in the current end game, even with what you might think are all these stat mods.

When they even out the disparity in power among the classes (Which will be never) then you all can cry rivers about how the mods need to be balanced as well.

Yup, I've no idea how to run an end-game based DC caster.

The fact that Monkchers and ranged builds are so OP is another problem. The fact that they are OP shouldn't close the door to more means to increase DEX for melee dex builds. The solution would be to nerf Ranged and then give us Dex boosts, which I don't have a problem with.

Now, about the "amazing and overwhelming power that casters posses" I just have one word: lol.

Str adds to:
Melee damage
Melee to hit
thrown weapon damage
Trip resist
carry cap
lever/door opening
Tactic DCs
Opening locks for horcs

Dex adds to:
Reflex saves
AC
Melee to hit
Melee damage
ranged to hit
ranged damage for elves
thrown weapon to hit
some DCs for certain races and classes

If I were to be the one balancing the two I would leave dex at ~ 2/3 the available strength. That is all I have to say.

2/3 is a good number. Right now we are at 1/3 probably.

[FestusHood]

If it takes you 10 seconds to use a scroll, you're doing something wrong.

You make concentration checks in epic elite on a fighter?