New cookies: the trend of lazy design and shifting casters/dex melees continues

[Wizza]

NEW: We have added a couple of new Cookies:
Owlbear Cookie
Available from both the Jester of Festivult (for 1 Gold Coin) and Jolias Leftfield (Eveningstar Midwinter Festival Barter) (for 280 Motes of Winter).
“This cookie will bestow the strength and hardiness of 100 angry owlbears. Eating this cookie will grant a +4 Rage Bonus to both Strength and Constitution.”

Shadow Cookie
Available from both the Jester of Festivult (for 1 Gold Coin) and Jolias Leftfield (Eveningstar Midwinter Festival Barter) (for 280 Motes of Winter).
“This cookie is so bad that consuming it feels akin to death, temporarily stripping away your physical form and leaving you a shadow of your former self. Eating this cookie will grant Shadow Form, making you insubstantial, giving you 25% incorporeality, letting you float as if affected by featherfall, providing bonuses to hide, move silently and tumble, as well as letting you deal strength damage on melee and ranged critical hits.”

Shar, Mistress of the Night Cookie
Available from Jolias Leftfield (Eveningstar Midwinter Festival Barter) (for 120 Motes of Winter).
“This cookie allows you to bring darkness down upon nearby enemies. Eating this cookie will blind nearby enemies for a short time.”


+4 Rage bonus to STR and Con.
+25% Incorporeality
Blindness

Really..just a copy paste from everything else in game. Same as the new Epic Past life feats.

Also, why do melees keep getting bonus to STR and CON and casters/dex melees get NOTHING EVERY SINGLE TIME? Give us cookies that raise INT, WIS, CHA AND DEX. What's so hard about that?

STR melees have/have had already this:

Warforged Titan Cookie Titan's Grip, CL:15 - +6 Psionic bonus to STR
Hezrou Cookie Infernal Power, CL:10 - +4 STR/DEX/CON

Then they have Primal Scream for YET ANOTHER +5 STR/CON for a total of +6 +4 +5 +4 = 19 STR and 13 CON. And Dex just have that little +4. And I will not count every other single enhancement that gives STR but not DEX.

You made Dex-to-dmg viable in game. Now give us the means to increase it with little boosts like these ones.


Now about Casters:

They have to chug FIVE different cookies just to get a +4 CHA/INT/WIS. It's boring, it's stupid, it's too limited. Why can't we have something like Primal Scream for Casters?

About time you stop giving every single limited buff to STR based melees and give something to EVERYONE ELSE in game.

[Drelak]

Funny thing.

I was just the other night wondering, if they are ever going to make enough stacking DEX boosts, so that DEX builds could compete with STR-based melee builds with madstone rage and everything.
DEX is a bit more versatile, so maybe not every effect should be matched, but in my opinion, there have been way too many DDO spesific ( =not in p&p dd) stacking STR boosts in the game already. So much so, that the starting STR score of a toon becomes meaningless.

[Wizza]

Funny thing.

I was just the other night wondering, if they are ever going to make enough stacking DEX boosts, so that DEX builds could compete with STR-based melee builds with madstone rage and everything.
DEX is a bit more versatile, so maybe not every effect should be matched, but in my opinion, there have been way too many DDO spesific ( =not in p&p dd) stacking STR boosts in the game already. So much so, that the starting STR score of a toon becomes meaningless.

Just look at the DDO Book of records. Now, that record is kinda old but I'm pretty sure we could get higher that 58 Dex but there is no way DEX will even be able to reach 100. And STR was back then already 60 (SIXTY) points higher with every single limited buff running.

Unless they start giving us thousands and thousands of Dex boosts, we will never reach those numbers. It should not be matched to STR for sure but it also shouldn't suck so much. The gap is too wide.

[redspecter23]

I agree that there is a huge disparity between str and dex, but I don't think the solution is necessarily to just add straight up dex boosts. I'd suggest something a bit different. You don't want to make it a race between str and dex as dex will never win and power creep will just continue to move the goalposts. How about different abilities, either feats or on items that make a dex build more desirable without strictly raising dex.

Armband of Lightning Strikes
Wrist slot
Lv 30
Dex +12
Adds Lightning Strike to your melee/unarmed/ranged attacks
You add your dex bonus to your doublestrike/doubleshot chance.
Green Slot
Colorless Slot

Epic Destiny Ability Greater Combat Expertise (Dreadnaught)
Requires: Combat Expertise
While you are in Combat Expertise stance, you add your dex bonus to your tactics DC's (in addition to your str bonus, or wis if monk)
I'd squeeze this in at tier 2 if possible so it's easy to twist.

Perfect Combat Expertise (heroic feat)
Requires: Combat Expertise, Dex 19
While you are in Combat Expertise stance, whenever you are hit (or grazed) in combat you gain a fully stackable AC and dex bonus equal to 1+ 1 per 5 character levels up to + 7 AC and +7 Dex each time you are hit at level 30 (max 10 stacks for +70 AC and + 70 Dex)

Precise Critical (epic feat)
Requires: Perfect Combat Expertise, Dex 21
Your critical threat range with all weapons is increased by 1 (before multipliers like improved critical) and you gain + 25% offhand doublestrike

I'd really like to add more incentives for the combat expertise line as the opportunity cost is huge by having to not have power attack active at the same time. I see combat expertise as an untapped potential dex path that could compare to the PA/cleave/great cleave/overwhelming crit path for strength based toons.

[Vellrad]

I say meh at dex builds, until OC will stop requiring 23 STR.

[Wizza]

4 feats + 1 enhancement in LD isn't a good solution, sorry. Specially when some of the Dex based builds are Rogues that have no feats to spare.

Adding DEX bonuses is the quicker and better way to make up for the difference. Maybe you can add an OC-like for DEX based characters that requires full TWF line or whatever else but nothing more than that.

[Wizza]

I say meh at dex builds, until OC will stop requiring 23 STR.

I would honestly lower it to 21 (Improved Sneak attack and Epic Toughness both have a 21 Con requirement).

[redspecter23]

4 feats + 1 enhancement in LD isn't a good solution, sorry. Specially when some of the Dex based builds are Rogues that have no feats to spare.

Adding DEX bonuses is the quicker and better way to make up for the difference. Maybe you can add an OC-like for DEX based characters that requires full TWF line or whatever else but nothing more than that.

Rogues don't have feats to spare because they are using them on the basically required power attack line. There isn't a viable alternative. If there was, the feats could be spent there instead. Tough choices and all that.

I do agree that we need more dex boosting effects for sure, but I don't think a dex-to-damage build should be pumping out similar raw numbers to a similar str build. I'm just saying that they can be effective, even comparable dps wise, without just pumping up dex so it's exactly the same as a str build, but with dex to damage. I see that as boring and unimaginative design. Providing bonus to doublestrike, crit range and tactics based on your dex is a more elegant way to improve dex builds and in my opinion keeps an important difference between str and dex toons. Dex toons should strike for less damage but more often. Str toons should strike less often, but harder. At least that's how I envision it.

[taurean430]

The game is melee centric. Anything that threatens melee builds in any way gets the ole' nerf bat. Boosts in the time I've been here are completely melee centric. As a DM myself I'd have an coronary if all of the stacking bonuses available to a Str build showed up in my tabletop game. It's only recently with epic destinies that casting builds/dex builds have received any stacking boni at all. And they are still paled by the run of the mill Str build.

The abashai cookie eating is nice and all, but is really nothing compared to the other side of the coin. I agree with this OP.

/signed

[Oxarhamar]

Rogues don't have feats to spare because they are using them on the basically required power attack line. There isn't a viable alternative. If there was, the feats could be spent there instead. Tough choices and all that.

I do agree that we need more dex boosting effects for sure, but I don't think a dex-to-damage build should be pumping out similar raw numbers to a similar str build. I'm just saying that they can be effective, even comparable dps wise, without just pumping up dex so it's exactly the same as a str build, but with dex to damage. I see that as boring and unimaginative design. Providing bonus to doublestrike, crit range and tactics based on your dex is a more elegant way to improve dex builds and in my opinion keeps an important difference between str and dex toons. Dex toons should strike for less damage but more often. Str toons should strike less often, but harder. At least that's how I envision it.

Dex based builds could be made more viable without silly stacking boost cookies

Dex bonuses to attack speed that stack
Dex bonuses to doublestrike/doubleshot
Dex based feat increase to Critical treat range (similar to Kensii Keen edge)
TWF line unlock of Overwhelming Crit


No real need to boost Dex any higher than we can already just make it worth maxing Dex by giving a maxed Dex build some good bonuses

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

Dex based builds could be made more viable without silly stacking boost cookies

Dex bonuses to attack speed that stack
Dex bonuses to doublestrike/doubleshot
Dex based feat increase to Critical treat range (similar to Kensii Keen edge)
TWF line unlock of Overwhelming Crit


No real need to boost Dex any higher than we can already just make it worth maxing Dex by giving a maxed Dex build some good bonuses

I can't see anyone bothering going str if this was to happen - comparable dmg. Since only a handfull of builds can get viable ee tactics dc's. Having to rely on a gzilion of short term clickies and consumables... you would just take dex and be happy with your increased survivability.

[Oxarhamar]

I can't see anyone bothering going str if this was to happen - comparable dmg. Since only a handfull of builds can get viable ee tactics dc's. Having to rely on a gzilion of short term clickies and consumables... you would just take dex and be happy with your increased survivability.

your right I would just take Dex and forget the clickies

however, I was merely listing a bunch of ways dex builds could be boosted and I would imagine if any were to come to live it would not be all of them at once.


I'm thinking of when I played Ultima Online way back in the long long ago


max strength build with a War Hammer could do massive damage very slowly

vs.

max dex build with a Kryss could do moderate damage very quikly

[pasterqb]

Yes lets make Dex as easy to get as Str! Its not like Dex is way more useful than Str. I mean Str matters way too much seeing as how it counts for AC which negates a whole lot of damage and it is used for the most useful save in the game in Reflex. Oh wait never mind that's backwards Dex is way more useful than Str when you factor in Dex to hit and dmg.

Let's look as what stat is more useful and becomes more powerful the higher you get it.

Str:
Carrying Capacity (Important but beyond 20ish Str becomes useless.)
Jump Skill(Caps at 40 and spell gives 30 as well as 4 from GH so useless past 6)
Swim Skill(Irrelevant)
Trip Save(Useful to avoid being a sitting duck but to get up its a Balance check which is Dex)
Tactics DC(Very useful if you can hit a enough number but not very effective versus bosses makes it nothing but trash worthy)

Dex:
Armor Class(Extremely important. A high number makes the damage you take very minimal)
Reflex Save(Most important save. A high number makes you immune to 90+% of all damage spells when combined with easy to get evasion)
Balance skill(One of the most useful skills in the game easily top 3 or 5 skill)


So hmmm Dex makes you invincible while Str gives you some cool minor benefits... Yes lets make 100+ Dex possible so everyone can get 300 AC and 100+ Reflex.

[Wizza]

Yes lets make Dex as easy to get as Str! Its not like Dex is way more useful than Str. I mean Str matters way too much seeing as how it counts for AC which negates a whole lot of damage and it is used for the most useful save in the game in Reflex. Oh wait never mind that's backwards Dex is way more useful than Str when you factor in Dex to hit and dmg.

Let's look as what stat is more useful and becomes more powerful the higher you get it.

Str:
Carrying Capacity (Important but beyond 20ish Str becomes useless.)
Jump Skill(Caps at 40 and spell gives 30 as well as 4 from GH so useless past 6)
Swim Skill(Irrelevant)
Trip Save(Useful to avoid being a sitting duck but to get up its a Balance check which is Dex)
Tactics DC(Very useful if you can hit a enough number but not very effective versus bosses makes it nothing but trash worthy)

Dex:
Armor Class(Extremely important. A high number makes the damage you take very minimal)
Reflex Save(Most important save. A high number makes you immune to 90+% of all damage spells when combined with easy to get evasion)
Balance skill(One of the most useful skills in the game easily top 3 or 5 skill)


So hmmm Dex makes you invincible while Str gives you some cool minor benefits... Yes lets make 100+ Dex possible so everyone can get 300 AC and 100+ Reflex.

Is this even serious?

AC? Useless on 99% of the toons.
Reflex saves: good point but no fail can be achieved by Fighters splashed pallies/monk.
Balance skill: lol.

I like how you dismiss Tactics DC btw, very clever

Ah,

Dex makes you invincible

This should be put in someone's signature. Togheter with the "you don't need fortification" quotes.

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

AC? Useless on 99% of the toons.

Actually with the current hit system AC matters to everyone. Ofc if your AC is lowish you will not notice an increase just as you will not notice adding another 1% dodge. But it doesn't make it worthless.

[redspecter23]

Actually with the current hit system AC matters to everyone. Ofc if your AC is lowish you will not notice an increase just as you will not notice adding another 1% dodge. But it doesn't make it worthless.

AC is problematic in that in everything up to epic hard content you can achieve a meaningful, but not unhittable AC regardless of how much or little invenstment you put in. Toss on some armor, a few standard buffs and you'll notice some misses. You don't even have to try. Therefore, meaningless... mostly. In epic elite, if you invest very heavily in AC you may notice a small percentage of misses over the 5% you're guaranteed to be missed simply from the mobs rolling 1's occasionally. The amount you have to invest in AC as a viable defense compared to blur, displace, incorporeality, dodge, prr, etc. is so far out of whack compared to the extra defense it provides that it's basically also meaningless. You can't invest heavily enough in it without starting to give up more valuable DPS slots. Displacement just requires UMD and a scroll or a clickie and you get missed 50% of the time. For a 50% miss chance from AC alone in epic elite, I can't imagine what I'd have to give up, but it's certainly a heck of a lot more that a scroll every 30 seconds.

I guess the point is, AC isn't technically speaking completely worthless, but the investment to benefit ratio is so messed up in epic elite compared to your other defensive options that it's just not worth looking at unless a sword and board sentinel build somehow becomes a useful toon again. New raid coming so it may have a niche use in the near future, but for now, bringing massive AC to the fight doesn't provide any real advantage if you have to give up any sort of DPS to do so.

[Oxarhamar]

Dex based builds could be made more viable without silly stacking boost cookies

Dex bonuses to attack speed that stack
Dex bonuses to doublestrike/doubleshot
Dex based feat increase to Critical treat range (similar to Kensii Keen edge)
TWF line unlock of Overwhelming Crit


No real need to boost Dex any higher than we can already just make it worth maxing Dex by giving a maxed Dex build some good bonuses

**Ah I forgot to mention one of my pet peeves in game TWF + Cleave should not only hit with main hand weapon give us TWC

I find it to be absolutely annoying playing TWF Deathnips in Legendary Dreadnought Cleaving away to gain epic moment only using 1 weapon half the time because of Cleave

[PrimalConcreteSledge]

AC is problematic in that in everything up to epic hard content you can achieve a meaningful, but not unhittable AC regardless of how much or little invenstment you put in. Toss on some armor, a few standard buffs and you'll notice some misses. You don't even have to try. Therefore, meaningless... mostly. In epic elite, if you invest very heavily in AC you may notice a small percentage of misses over the 5% you're guaranteed to be missed simply from the mobs rolling 1's occasionally. The amount you have to invest in AC as a viable defense compared to blur, displace, incorporeality, dodge, prr, etc. is so far out of whack compared to the extra defense it provides that it's basically also meaningless. You can't invest heavily enough in it without starting to give up more valuable DPS slots. Displacement just requires UMD and a scroll or a clickie and you get missed 50% of the time. For a 50% miss chance from AC alone in epic elite, I can't imagine what I'd have to give up, but it's certainly a heck of a lot more that a scroll every 30 seconds.

I guess the point is, AC isn't technically speaking completely worthless, but the investment to benefit ratio is so messed up in epic elite compared to your other defensive options that it's just not worth looking at unless a sword and board sentinel build somehow becomes a useful toon again. New raid coming so it may have a niche use in the near future, but for now, bringing massive AC to the fight doesn't provide any real advantage if you have to give up any sort of DPS to do so.

Agree with all you said i general just want to add that there are mobs that can bypass concealment (spiders, mobs with true seeing spell). Any AC bonus you might have will stack with that same displacement giving aditional protection.

Also, since protection layers are not aditive but resolved separately, achieving high values in one layer is more beneficial than stacking several lover ones. In other words, theoretical 75% AC protection would be more beneficial than all other layers put together (50% concealment, 25% incorporability and 25% dodge), not to mention it would stack with them.

[Oxarhamar]

Agree with all you said i general just want to add that there are mobs that can bypass concealment (spiders, mobs with true seeing spell). Any AC bonus you might have will stack with that same displacement giving aditional protection.

Also, since protection layers are not aditive but resolved separately, achieving high values in one layer is more beneficial than stacking several lover ones. In other words, theoretical 75% AC protection would be more beneficial than all other layers put together (50% concealment, 25% incorporability and 25% dodge), not to mention it would stack with them.

Theoretically yes 75% AC protection sounds good but, at what cost? How many dedicated AC gear slots? How many feats? Where is your DPS?

even if you could reach 100% AC protection and no monster ever land a blow what is the point if you can't hold the agro because, you can't do any damage?

[redspecter23]

Agree with all you said i general just want to add that there are mobs that can bypass concealment (spiders, mobs with true seeing spell). Any AC bonus you might have will stack with that same displacement giving aditional protection.

Also, since protection layers are not aditive but resolved separately, achieving high values in one layer is more beneficial than stacking several lover ones. In other words, theoretical 75% AC protection would be more beneficial than all other layers put together (50% concealment, 25% incorporability and 25% dodge), not to mention it would stack with them.

Agreed, 75% AC avoidance would be amazing, but the 50% displacement + 25% incorporeality and 25% dodge you have listed is about 72% avoidance and that setup is completely reasonable for epic elite content these days with minimal to no impact on your DPS at all. The most negative impact they have on DPS isn't due to feats, gear or enhancements but the mere fact that you have to stop swinging for a second to activate some of them. In fact, many blitzing toons might even be squeezing a few more dodge points from enhancements. This is 72% avoidance with absolutely no effort at all put into AC. You could have a 0 AC and still only be hit 28% of the time. If you could get even as high as a 50% avoidance from AC on top of all this, that AC would only be adding 14% extra protection and to get 50% avoidance in epic elite would be well over 100 and probably closer to 200 AC necessary. For this reason, people say AC is meaningless because it's far too much effort for far too little gain. Yes there are some mobs with true seeing to negate the displacement, but until it's nearly every mob, people will stick to displacement scrolls and clickies like glue. They are just that good.