Which (BF) build should I try?

[Kingault]

Edit: You can pretty much ignore all of my OP. I should have just said whether Bladeforged would work best with unarmed, TWF, or with a stick. Have +2 tomes in all stats, and a +5 from Mabar. Leaning on stick due to unarmed needing wis/dex, and twf needing dex more than the stick. The builds I linked to weren't the most suitable for what I have. Meh.

Basically, I'm not sure whether I should go Unarmed(such as the Munkenmo Woodfist build), TWF, or Stick.

Each build has its own attractions to me, but also their own drawbacks, but I'm not sure how far they go. I'm basically looking for advice regarding... hm... which build would be best for which playstye.... solo ability(EH, don't plan on solo EEing... for now.).... and maybe a comparison of how big a difference in DPS they would have?
(Planning on going Bladeforged regardless of build due to the SLA)(Have only +2 tomes in all, and a +5 from Mabar, not used yet)
So far I've got(not counting EDs because chances are I'd go LD due to being level 4 in that and only level 3 in one other ED, Shiradi. Maybe GMoF for unarmed.):

Stick has:
Imp. Evasion, opportunist, and... crippling strike?, more sneak attack dice, CHA mod to damage + saves, uh.... cyrstal DR bypass(not like many enemies have that) due to Sireth?
14(I think? Would be 13 if the T5 LD thing worked?)-18 x3 crit, 19-20 x6(Mountain, Overwhelming, the LD crit thing) for crits
Due to rogue, can put points for traps?(If I got epic spare hand I guess)
Tomes not as important
3d6 sneak attack from epic feat if it's worth it

Downsides(to me):
Not as much benefit from doublestrike due to only getting 1 attack per "swing", whereas TWF/unarmed get 2
No ranged option
Uh.... not sure what else. Cleaves not as useful?

Ginsu:
Uh...... more hits so more chances at crits?
Has a ranged option

Going to require more tomes due to BF having lower DEX/WIS

Munkenmo Woodfist/Unarmed:
Better stun(6sec cd)
Instakill
Most # of attacks
Antipode + Shintao/twist + Good Augment = all DRs gotten. Then again, Grave Wraps is better for mobs.
Needs more tomes for BF due to -Dex/wis
Only 19-20 crit range, but instakilling probably makes up for that

I'm probably missing a lot of downs/ups for these builds, so... eh.
Leaning toward the stick build since I have Sireth from the box(and Pinion, but the build doesn't have ranged), and due to not being as tome intensive.
Then again, it's not like I ranged at all my first two lives(TWF).
Guess if I ever get better tomes, I'll try the other two out and see which one I like best.

I considered a fighter/mnk/pal build for THF, but I'd only take that if I had ESoS, and... I'm not going to be getting that any time soon.
Thanks in advance.

[elg582]

The biggest problem with ginsu is that it is fighter/ranger/monk, and BF have to take level 1 as paladin

Munkenmo requires 3 +5 tomes, and Antipode is a terrible weapon.

Crimson Bolt is a little squishy; no incorporeal, low base hp, moderate saves even with paladin splash, although imp evasion helps with that. I would change it to 10 rogue/6 monk/4 paladin, for an extra feat and 25% incorporeal.


I went the THF route and just use Breach until I get my SoS

[Kingault]

The biggest problem with ginsu is that it is fighter/ranger/monk, and BF have to take level 1 as paladin

Munkenmo requires 3 +5 tomes, and Antipode is a terrible weapon.

Crimson Bolt is a little squishy; no incorporeal, low base hp, moderate saves even with paladin splash, although imp evasion helps with that. I would change it to 10 rogue/6 monk/4 paladin, for an extra feat and 25% incorporeal.


I went the THF route and just use Breach until I get my SoS

Yeah, I forgot about Grave Wrappings. Those neg levels must help a good bit.

For Ginsu, I could get... 11 levels of fighter and 3 of ranger, then LR + 1 the Paladin level to fighter.
Then there's the fact that the Ginsu wasn't made with BF stats in mind, so... yeah. Tomes. Wouldn't be a problem if I was VIP for monthly points, but unfortunately I don't have that.
I could just not go bladeforged, but tbh, I'm not that fond of scroll healing.

Hm, guess my plan for now is to get this Monkcher I currently have to 20, then do epics for gear(including trying to get eSoS) and EDs(for Twists)... Now I wonder, maybe I could roll up a BF monkcher...

I did get the Cloudburst and Insanity greatswords, so those would help me. Guess I should've saved my second raider box until I figured out what build I wanted, eh? At least Sireth has x3 with that TA enhancement.

Just curious, could the eSoS be better at single target DPS than dual Balizardes?
You never cease to help me, eh, elg?
If tomes weren't an issue, which build(not counting THF, just stick, using the levels you suggested)) would you think is best for: soloing, damage, trash? Guessing TWF/Stick would be better in raw damage due to crit range, but then again, maybe the # of attacks(+doublestrike, and cleaves/Momentum/Lay Waste) would make TWF higher in that category. Woodfist seems better for trash due to stunning fist and quivering palm, especially on EE, but it seems to me the focus on the DCs makes actual damage lower than, say TWF. Course I've no clue for sure, but this is what it looks like to me.
To me out, of the three, stick has the highest numbers(maybe attack speed is close to twf as well due to the qstaff att speed enhancement?) and maybe highest fort bypass(due to the rogue feat that gives -10%), twf has the highest amount of crits due to offhand + attack speed, and Woodfist has the highest # of attacks(probably not crits due to 19-20 range instead of 13/14-20 like the others) and the instakills(and Grave Wrappings for neg levels) for trash.

In retrospect, I shouldn't have specifically said the Woodfist build for unarmed.
I'm thinking of going 16mnk/3rng/1fight or maybe 4ng(will get precise shot either way), but that wouldn't change the importance of tomes. If I had +3 or 4 in the stats needed, then I'd try it. Planning on stick for now, because really, I doubt I'll be getting eSoS any time soon.

[elg582]

Yeah, I forgot about Grave Wrappings. Those neg levels must help a good bit.

For Ginsu, I could get... 11 levels of fighter and 3 of ranger, then LR + 1 the Paladin level to fighter.
Then there's the fact that the Ginsu wasn't made with BF stats in mind, so... yeah. Tomes. Wouldn't be a problem if I was VIP for monthly points, but unfortunately I don't have that.
I could just not go bladeforged, but tbh, I'm not that fond of scroll healing.

Hm, guess my plan for now is to get this Monkcher I currently have to 20, then do epics for gear(including trying to get eSoS) and EDs(for Twists)... Now I wonder, maybe I could roll up a BF monkcher...

I did get the Cloudburst and Insanity greatswords, so those would help me. Guess I should've saved my second raider box until I figured out what build I wanted, eh? At least Sireth has x3 with that TA enhancement.

Just curious, could the eSoS be better at single target DPS than dual Balizardes?

There you go

eSoS is about as good as balizarde + (insert epic light weapon here, eSting comes to mind), but much harder to get.

You never cease to help me, eh, elg?

Just OCD as ****, but you're welcome

If tomes weren't an issue, which build(not counting THF, just stick, using the levels you suggested)) would you think is best for: soloing, damage, trash? Guessing TWF/Stick would be better in raw damage due to crit range, but then again, maybe the # of attacks(+doublestrike, and cleaves/Momentum/Lay Waste) would make TWF higher in that category. Woodfist seems better for trash due to stunning fist and quivering palm, especially on EE, but it seems to me the focus on the DCs makes actual damage lower than, say TWF. Course I've no clue for sure, but this is what it looks like to me.
To me out, of the three, stick has the highest numbers(maybe attack speed is close to twf as well due to the qstaff att speed enhancement?) and maybe highest fort bypass(due to the rogue feat that gives -10%), twf has the highest amount of crits due to offhand + attack speed, and Woodfist has the highest # of attacks(probably not crits due to 19-20 range instead of 13/14-20 like the others) and the instakills(and Grave Wrappings for neg levels) for trash.

In retrospect, I shouldn't have specifically said the Woodfist build for unarmed.
I'm thinking of going 16mnk/3rng/1fight or maybe 4ng(will get precise shot either way), but that wouldn't change the importance of tomes. If I had +3 or 4 in the stats needed, then I'd try it. Planning on stick for now, because really, I doubt I'll be getting eSoS any time soon.

OK, first of all, forget those builds; munkenmo is a 437th life maniac with gear that you've only read about, ginsu is entirely wrong for BF, and the red arrow is a glass cannon.

Unarmed on a BF is just too tricky without serious tomes; the DEX hit is too great to get the feats without 11 ranger, which kills your unarmed damage. Munkenmo does it with +5 tomes in 3 stats; more, actually, but it requires 3.

TWF is in a similar state, except that 11 ranger/x paladin/whatever is certainly a workable platform, and gives you your ranged option. That's not my style, though, so I'll let someone else talk about that.

A good stick build needs 1 rogue, for 15% attack speed boost, 6 monk, for henshin (your damage) and ninja (your defense), and whatever else you deem best.

Give me a few, I'm building something up that might work.

Edit:

OK, bear in mind that it's Thanksgiving night and I might have drunk half a bottle of egg-nog mixed with brandy, so I'm not making any promises that this makes any sense at all, but here goes. I call it Batonmorte:

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 28 Lawful Good Warforged Male
(6 Monk \ 1 Rogue \ 13 Wizard \ 8 Epic) 
Hit Points: 368
Spell Points: 1325 
BAB: 10\10\15\20
Fortitude: 13
Reflex: 13
Will: 11

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 28)
Strength             16                    24
Dexterity            14                    14
Constitution         16                    18
Intelligence         16                    18
Wisdom                6                     6
Charisma              6                     6

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
                 Base Skills         Modified Skills
Skills           (Level 1)            (Level 28)
Balance               2                    10
Bluff                -2                     6
Concentration         3                    12
Diplomacy            -2                     6
Disable Device        n/a                  n/a
Haggle               -2                     6
Heal                 -2                     6
Hide                  2                    10
Intimidate           -2                     6
Jump                  3                    15
Listen               -2                     6
Move Silently         2                    10
Open Lock             n/a                  n/a
Perform              n/a                    n/a
Repair                3                    12
Search                3                    12
Spellcraft            3                    12
Spot                 -2                     6
Swim                  3                    15
Tumble                n/a                  n/a
Use Magic Device     n/a                    n/a

Level 1 (Rogue)
Feat: (Selected) Power Attack


Level 2 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Extend Spell


Level 3 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Cleave
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Dodge


Level 4 (Wizard)


Level 5 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Toughness


Level 6 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Two Handed Fighting


Level 7 (Monk)
Feat: (Monk Path) Path of Harmonious Balance: Fists of Light


Level 8 (Wizard)


Level 9 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Great Cleave


Level 10 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Maximize Spell


Level 11 (Monk)


Level 12 (Monk)
Feat: (Selected) Master of Forms
Feat: (Monk Bonus) Precision


Level 13 (Wizard)


Level 14 (Wizard)


Level 15 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Critical: Bludgeoning Weapons


Level 16 (Wizard)


Level 17 (Wizard)
Feat: (Wizard Bonus) Quicken Spell


Level 18 (Wizard)
Feat: (Selected) Grandmaster of Forms


Level 19 (Wizard)


Level 20 (Wizard)


Level 21 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Overwhelming Critical


Level 22 (Epic)


Level 23 (Epic)


Level 24 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Improved Two Handed Fighting


Level 25 (Epic)


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Perfect Two Handed Fighting


Level 27 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Epic: Blinding Speed


Level 28 (Epic)
Feat: (Epic Destiny) Epic Destiny: Elusive Target

Tier 5 Henshin mystic, 20ish AP in racial, 11 AP in EK, 11 AP in ninja, 4 in Thief -Acrobat.

Buff and utility spells; Knock, in particular, since it lets you dump Open Lock and you will be skill point tight. Reconstruct, Tenser's Transformation, and one open level 6 spell (Acid Fog, Disintegrate, Greater Heroism are all good choices here), and 2 level 7 spell slots.

Max staff DPS; Sireth will be better and faster than eSoS. Tenser's Transformation will have to be cast instead of toggled, but that is an option; there is no other way to get Staff Specialization, and the negative level strike is invaluable.

It will require a +1 LR for BF, although you could so something similar with 12 sorc/6 monk/2 paladin; better saves, but lower DPS and no trapping.

[Kingault]

You terrify me, elg.
Yet, it's so... beautiful.
Question: If I go BF with that build, think I should swap some APs for Power of the Forge?

But yeah, I figured those builds weren't the best for what I have/BF, but eh. Figured it was better than just being overly vague. Maybe not.
Guess this will be the first time I'm going wizzy.
Forgot that Henshin also had the +1 staff crit range/multi enhancement.
Thanks, elg.
By the way... what ED would you recommend for this? LD?

[Munkenmo]

I would actually recommend against my build for a newer player. (as much as i'm flattered btw, I'd also recommend against linking it, you could get in trouble)

I'll also agree antipode sucks. Fortunately I can equip my random gen shattering and EE thunder & lightning again now

[Kingault]

I would actually recommend against my build for a newer player. (as much as i'm flattered btw, I'd also recommend against linking it, you could get in trouble)

I'll also agree antipode sucks. Fortunately I can equip my random gen shattering and EE thunder & lightning again now

Eh, was just linking that for some sort of comparison to what I wanted, even if I didn't have the tomes needed. It was the best example of what I was aiming for that I could find. But yeah, such a build would only really work with higher tomes, and alright, I'll remove the link. Thanks for warning me.

Completely forgot about Henshin. Heh.
I forget, is Antipode actually bad for its level, or is it just overshadowed by Grave Wrappings/EE T&L?

[Munkenmo]

If you haven't gotten a lot of tomes yet and are dead set on a bladeforged (they're awesome btw), I'd look into something like an 8fighter, 9monk, 3paladin. (a variation of carpones Centred cleaver build)

If you've still got a raiders reward box, grab the cleaver and roll with that.

pros-
centred w. favored weapon
improved evasion
cha to saves
low tome dependance.

[voodoogroves]

If you're making a stick build, isn't rogue 2 pretty much required for the latent attack speed boost?

[Kingault]

If you haven't gotten a lot of tomes yet and are dead set on a bladeforged (they're awesome btw), I'd look into something like an 8fighter, 9monk, 3paladin. (a variation of carpones Centred cleaver build)

If you've still got a raiders reward box, grab the cleaver and roll with that.

pros-
centred w. favored weapon
improved evasion
cha to saves
low tome dependance.

Funny story.... I kinda decided to use up my raiders boxes on Sireth/Pinion a few days ago for some reason... Heh.... Oh well, I could just run CitW on my current life once I reach the levels for it, if I decide to try this build out, maybe if I ever feel like trying something else again. (Not like there's any endgame yet, eh?)

[Munkenmo]

Eh, was just linking that for some sort of comparison, even if I didn't have the tomes needed. It was the best example for what I wanted I could find. But yeah, such a build would only really work with higher tomes, and alright, I'll remove the link. Thanks for warning me.

Completely forgot about Henshin. Heh.
I forget, is Antipode actually bad for its level, or is it just overshadowed by Grave Wrappings/EE T&L?

Imo antipode is pretty garbage. I only keep them for the set bonus if I need to boost my PRR in EE's.

Gravewrappings are easily the better choice for trash, EE & TL Definately the better choice for non immune mobs.

Personally though, I've come to favor shattering wraps since my Quivering Palm dc needs more work than my stunning fist.

[Kingault]

Imo antipode is pretty garbage. I only keep them for the set bonus if I need to boost my PRR in EE's.

Gravewrappings are easily the better choice for trash, EE & TL Definately the better choice for non immune mobs.

Personally though, I've come to favor shattering wraps since my Quivering Palm dc needs more work than my stunning fist.

Heh, yeah. No need to level drain trash mobs if you can just instantly kill them, right?

[Munkenmo]

Hmm just noticed you're not overly interested in EE's and have a +5 tome.

If I may, the most irritating stat for me when building 2wf toons is dex, it's a stat I only ever invest enough into to reach pre-reqs. If you get to choose your +5 tome and are seriously considering 2wf over 2hf, choosing a +5 dex tome will be your most beneficial option.

assuming your bladeforged is a 36pt build you could do my build as follows:

17 base str +2 tome, +4 levels
12 base dex +5 tome
11 base con
8 base int
16 base wis +2tome +3 levels
8 base cha

If you could get your mits on a +3 str and +3 wis tome, you would be able to pick up vorpal fists and overwhelming crit (putting 3 levels up into str, rest into wis, then feat swapping at level 28.)

I wouldn't take my build into EE's without all the pastlives i've acquired though. But it'd be still be great in EH/EN.

[Kingault]

Hmm just noticed you're not overly interested in EE's and have a +5 tome.

If I may, the most irritating stat for me when building 2wf toons is dex, it's a stat I only ever invest enough into to reach pre-reqs. If you get to choose your +5 tome and are seriously considering 2wf over 2hf, choosing a +5 dex tome will be your most beneficial option.

assuming your bladeforged is a 36pt build you could do my build as follows:

17 base str +2 tome, +4 levels
12 base dex +5 tome
11 base con
8 base int
16 base wis +2tome +3 levels
8 base cha

If you could get your mits on a +3 str and +3 wis tome, you would be able to pick up vorpal fists and overwhelming crit (putting 3 levels up into str, rest into wis, then feat swapping at level 28.)

I wouldn't take my build into EE's without all the pastlives i've acquired though. But it'd be still be great in EH/EN.

Hm, didn't think of that. Good idea.
Suppose I could try both elg's and your builds and see which one I have more fun playing as.

Question, would dual wielding balizardes be better dps than unarmed due to much higher crit range(and a +! higher crit multi), or would the greater attack speed of unarmed(and quivering palm, I suppose, for trash), make up for that? Then again, it's not all about dps... Looking at just dps when comparing builds isn't really wise, I think.
Then again, I suppose it's more of which I'd prefer playing...
I'd have to try all three to see what I like/enjoy the most.

I may have done THF in my first life and TWF in my second, but those were both as pure fighters a year or two ago, so... yeah, much has changed since then.

Thanks for the advice.

[Munkenmo]

Balizarde would definately fall behind wraps even with it's crit range. It's not that great a DPS weapon, and you'd need 8 fighter levels to be centered with it.

taking into account empty handed mastery and 16monk levels.
with no wraps your fists will be 3[1d8], and the balizarde will be 2.5[1d8]

The crits would slightly help balizarde for a while, but it wouldn't even take a good set of wraps to out do them.

[Kingault]

Balizarde would definately fall behind wraps even with it's crit range. It's not that great a DPS weapon, and you'd need 8 fighter levels to be centered with it.

taking into account empty handed mastery and 16monk levels.
with no wraps your fists will be 3[1d8], and the balizarde will be 2.5[1d8]

The crits would slightly help balizarde for a while, but it wouldn't even take a good set of wraps to out do them.

Ahh, I see.
Just wanted to get reinforcement for elg's saying that unarmed is better, back in another of my threads about... uh, I think about what twf weapons were the best.. either that or my twf or monckher thread. Knew he was right but I wanted backing up of that, I suppose. Not sure what goes in my mind sometimes.

Now there's only 2 styles left. That makes things much simpler...
Not sure why I suddenly decided to consider a stick build, tbh.
The build elg posted would give me more sustain, among other things, but... fighting with your fists is pretty cool.(Brilliant reasoning here.)
Guess I'll just have to try both.

[elg582]

I use EE adamantine knuckles on my unarmed monk most of the time; nothing says DPS like 8d8 fists at unarmed attack speed with 100% off-hand proc and 3 red augments

The staff, though; it's hard to beat Sireth with Staff Spec, now. You only need 1 rogue for 15% attack speed boost, since the Henshin line is otherwise as good or better than the Thief-Acrobat line. I actually use it (without tier 5 Henshin) on my monkcher for my melee option; Lighting the Candle also works on bows, and you can get staff DPS up with less feat investment than TWF/unarmed.

Anyway, you seem to be narrowing down your options; let us know how it turns out

[Kingault]

I use EE adamantine knuckles on my unarmed monk most of the time; nothing says DPS like 8d8 fists at unarmed attack speed with 100% off-hand proc and 3 red augments

The staff, though; it's hard to beat Sireth with Staff Spec, now. You only need 1 rogue for 15% attack speed boost, since the Henshin line is otherwise as good or better than the Thief-Acrobat line. I actually use it (without tier 5 Henshin) on my monkcher for my melee option; Lighting the Candle also works on bows, and you can get staff DPS up with less feat investment than TWF/unarmed.

Anyway, you seem to be narrowing down your options; let us know how it turns out

Let's say I went unarmed but wanted to have some ranged when needed as well, do you think it would be viable to go 16mnk/4 rng or 16mnk/3rng/1fighter(don't know why I would pick those, tbh, same # of feats as 4 ranger), and sacrifice a feat or two to go manyshot? Would I be missing out on much other than .5 unarmed die and some saves?
As powerful as monckher is(sweet paralyzing arrows), part of me doesn't want to use a build(er, builds, since there are many monkchers), that's a dime a dozen.

[elg582]

Let's say I went unarmed but wanted to have some ranged when needed as well, do you think it would be viable to go 16mnk/4 rng or 16mnk/3rng/1fighter(don't know why I would pick those, tbh, same # of feats as 4 ranger), and sacrifice a feat or two to go manyshot? Would I be missing out on much other than .5 unarmed die and some saves?
As powerful as monckher is(sweet paralyzing arrows), part of me doesn't want to use a build(er, builds, since there are many monkchers), that's a dime a dozen.

There isn't much synergy between unarmed and bow to begin with: They want different EDs, ranged is feat intensive, and unarmed is a huge AP sink. Then BF take hits to both DEX and WIS, both of which you need for that mix, and it's just hopeless.

Monkcher is top notch DPS with minimal investment, but difficult for the same reason that unarmed is tough: You need DEX and WIS to run it, and BF don't get those.

So ranged is never going to be more than your burst option; 11 ranger/whatever gives you full TWF and most of the major ranged feats, or go THF and either take the ranged feats or go without.

[Kingault]

There isn't much synergy between unarmed and bow to begin with: They want different EDs, ranged is feat intensive, and unarmed is a huge AP sink. Then BF take hits to both DEX and WIS, both of which you need for that mix, and it's just hopeless.

Monkcher is top notch DPS with minimal investment, but difficult for the same reason that unarmed is tough: You need DEX and WIS to run it, and BF don't get those.

So ranged is never going to be more than your burst option; 11 ranger/whatever gives you full TWF and most of the major ranged feats, or go THF and either take the ranged feats or go without.

Hm, yeah, was thinking just many shot w/out slaying/fury, but in retrospect, I'd do more damage unarmed. Guess I'll just go 17mnk/3rng(tempest 10% offhand chance) if I go unarmed. Think a fighter level for the Kensai DC enhancement is worth it/the AP? Don't think +3 is worth the investment but I'd like to see what you think.
Remind me again, why does your Mad Monk build have 4 fighter/ranger levels each? Just curious.