An introduction: you can call me Doctor Loot

[samthedagger]

Happy Friday, everyone. I’d like to introduce myself as a bit of a new dev face on the forums. First, it’s about time I quit lurking, and second, I’m putting on an additional hat on the DDO team. What hat is that? In a word: loot. I’m here to listen to you and to keep my eyes on the big picture. Yes, that includes avoiding Ghostbane-situations.

Welcome! I'm always happy to see devs communicating.

So in the name of listening rather than blathering on and on, I’d like to ask you all a few questions as a sort of pulse-check on the state of loot. Go on and fill up the thread – I’ll check back in after the weekend (and a bit today, as schedule permits), with head-nods, follow-up questions, and answers where necessary.

- Aside from the diversity issue, what are the biggest problems with random loot, today?

Well, in order of importance:

1. Several key prefixes and suffixes are completely missing. Metalline, aligned, convalescent, greater luck, major luck, everbright, etc. I've led an effort to compile a list of some of the most important ones here.

2. I cannot tell what a weapon does just by looking at the name. To better explain this, let me give a simple example using everyone's favorite random loot suffix, ghostbane. Two weapons have identical names: +1 flaming longsword of ghostbane. Both are identical in minimum level, which is 10. However one is actually a +1 flaming (I) longsword of ghostbane IV while the other is a +1 flaming IV longsword of ghostbane (I). Now if I happen to desire a longsword that does lots of ghostbane damage and go browsing through the AH for minimum level 10 ghostbane longswords, I have to hover over each and every one to see how much ghostbane I am getting for my buck. This is a waste of time and could be solved by simply adding the roman numeral rating to the weapon name.

3. Some of the new randomly generated items have made old items of exceptional rarity and value obsolete. Some degree of obsolescence is to be expected in an MMO, but this is generally when level caps are increased. As an example, let's look at the new randomly generated Speed enhancement. It combines the functions of the old Striding enhancement with bonuses to attack speed. Suddenly all those named items out there with Striding as one of their abilities have become weaker by comparison. The Speed enhancement shouldn't have gone live without revamping the old named items with the Striding enhancement to replace Striding with an equivalent Speed enhancement. To take the example further, let's look at the Halcyon Boots, a raid item from The Fall of Truth. This item grants a +30% Striding bonus and is minimum level 25. But at level 25, I could now potentially find randomly generated boots with Speed X which grant the +30% movement speed as well as +10% attack speed. Halcyon Boots should have the same bonus, or perhaps the base item should have Speed VIII, the Tier 1 upgrade should include an enhancement to Speed IX and the Tier 2 upgrade should include an enhancement to Speed X.

4. New randomly generated items no longer randomly generate spell clickies. A lot of spell clickies are pretty worthless, but some of them, like invisibility, are incredibly useful.

I could go on, but these are the big concerns... aside from variety of course.

- What weapon and equipment types do you feel are underserved in named and in random loot?

Types underserved in named loot: handwraps, kukris, khopeshes, dwarven waraxes, bastard swords, short swords, belts, goggles, and bracers. Also DIVINE CASTER IMPLEMENTS!

Types underserved in random loot: Aside from Armor and Shields (I don't know anyone who uses randomly generated varieties of either), this is harder to pin down since you've broadened the possibilities for many types of enhancements. It used to be the case that you could only find one type of enhancement on two or three types of items. Now they can show up almost anywhere. I will say that items which can hold the accuracy enhancement are somewhat underserved, as accuracy is a rather ineffective use of a suffix. Items which can hold natural armor, protection, and AC bonuses are also underserved in the epic level content, as AC quickly becomes marginalized usefulness in high levels unless you can earn an obscene amount on a tank.

- I’d love to hear about some of the non-named loot your characters are currently wearing.

Here's my 28th-level Shadar-Kai pure rogue assassin's standard layout:

AC is pretty useless on a rogue. This is essentially just a +8 health item because I can't seem to find a better belt at the moment.




Like the belt, this is essentially just a 120% fortification item because I already get dodge bonuses aplenty from other items. And even this I plan to replace with my Ventilated Armbands from Fall of Truth once I can twist in Brace for Impact, since I can slot a 100% fortification sapphire and get decent enough fortification that way.


Like the belt and bracers, this also serves one function, +8 strength. I don't need the speed enhancement since I have the Blinding Speed feat. Granted, I could free up a feat slot easily enough, but the feat is better and grants other benefits besides. Most of the named boots out there are too redundant with my other items to be of much use.



This is just a placeholder until I find a black dragon helm that isn't redundant. Granted the deadly bonus to damage is nice, but its a drop in the bucket compared to the damage I receive from sneak attack. Also resistance +8 is nice as well. This is probably my most decent randomly generated item, but I'll happily drop it as soon as I can find a helm that gives me a bonus to a stat I do not already have.



This is my main weapon set, which gets used about 95% of the time.

This is my secondary weapon set, which gets used rarely.

Random weapon set #1. I don't know why I have this. I never use it. I don't usually bother with worrying about bypassing DR.

Random weapon set #2. I generally only use them to beat down the training dummy.

Random weapon set #3. One purpose: inevitables. Particularly the inevitable at the end of evon3.

Random weapon set #4. Like weapon set 1, I don't really use it.

So what's the randomly generated stuff I swap to?

Pretty obvious what this is for.

Since I remembered I had the EE Intricate Field Optics on a bank toon, I haven't actually used this, but it served its purpose for a time. It should probably go up on the AH at this point though. Just sitting in my inventory because I'm lazy.

Note: This is an OLD randomly generated item I've had for a long time which is infinitely useful. This reminds me of something else which is missing from my list of what is wrong with new randomly generated loot, which I've just added above.

Also pretty obvious purpose here.

So all in all, I don't use a lot of randomly generated items, and when I do, it isn't for much. Only 4 of my 12 gear slots (not counting weapons, quivers or cosmetics) are occupied by randomly generated items, and of those, only 1 serves more than one purpose (i.e. both prefix and suffix add something to my character). 2 of those I have plans to soon replace. The other 2 I will replace if I ever find named items that aren't redundant since named items usually come with augment slots which I can use to get the exact same benefit I am currently getting from the random items.

(In the future, I’m planning some similar question sessions about named loot and named loot systems, BTW.)

Cool.

[Bakalakadaka]

Just ran "Through a Mirror Darkly" (heroic) and found myself with an end loot list containing only armour - as a Bladeforged this was a real letdown. Now granted the armour choices were all complete rubbish that nobody would actually use, but it would have been nice to at least be given the option to refuse a useless docent but even that wasn't there.

Apart from doing something about the random loot, can you also make sure that all quest end fixed lists like this contain at least one item which can be used by every race and class so that nobody is getting left out of the chance to refuse something that was not worth the effort of the quest.

[gDra]

- Aside from the diversity issue, what are the biggest problems with random loot, today?
New loot performing vastly worse or better than old loot.
Nobody wants an item with 40% fortification at Lv15, Con+3 at Lv13 or +7 Skill item at Lv17. (recent pulls) Old loot is better.
The prime example of new loot being much better is naturally Deadly. With Epic GH one EE item gave +5, new random loot introduced +10, making the old one worthless.

I understand the wish to create enchantments that scale over a wider range of levels but they have to be kept in line with old loot. Either by adapting old loot to the new standard or ... giving the development of new items more thought.

- What weapon and equipment types do you feel are underserved in named and in random loot?
Random armors/robes don't get much use compared to named ones. Consider adding a 3rd enchantment to them (on higher levels).

- I’d love to hear about some of the non-named loot your characters are currently wearing.
I went to slot some new enchantments from U19 on random loot items since they can't be found elsewhere or imply too much restrictions on named items.
Ring:Fortification 125%, False Life 45
Gloves: Health +9, Dodge+10%
Necklace: Deadly+10, Resistance+9

On one hand I appreciate the way to make random loot more usable (more freedom to slot certain enchantments -> no best-in-slot named item) and also craftmanship, curses and slots make them more interesting, on the other hand hunting for the one named item has its charm. I don't want to be in your hide balancing that.
BTW Augment slots (empty!) shouldnt increase the item level, often the tradeoff is too big.

[moo_cow]

- Aside from the diversity issue, what are the biggest problems with random loot, today?
- What weapon and equipment types do you feel are underserved in named and in random loot?
- I’d love to hear about some of the non-named loot your characters are currently wearing.

-The only problem with random loot is it is better than named loot.... honestly I never cared for random loot back when there was good epic items. Random loot is just used until you can find an epic item to fill the slot.

- ....

- Most characters are equipped with:

- con 10, hp 50
- str 10, seeker 10
- dex 10, dodge 10
- deadly 10, resistance 10
- +10/+11 stats of whatever
- 125% fort of whatever
- healing amp of parrying

I don't carry any random armor or weapons aside from smiting weapons.

[SisAmethyst]

You asked us about an example where random-gen loot outclass named items, and one item I noticed is for example the Cruel Nobility.

Cruel Nobility, which is a ML16 item, has Slicing and Bleed as main attribute as the other both attributes Axiomatic and Unholy are flavour at best or are neglectable in terms of average damage. However the worst part is that it didn't count as Paragon weapon and therefore only has the 1x instead of the 1.5x multiplier. Thus a ML12 random loot gen item already outclass this weapon easily just on raw base damage. Same issue is with Fang of Siberys which is as well ML16 but miss the Paragon flag, however the attributes on this are quite unique.

[Leclaire1]

(In the future, I’m planning some similar question sessions about named loot and named loot systems, BTW.)

Hi Doctor! As the random loot update is now out, I thought I'd take some time to compile a list simply of named loot that could use some basic upgrades in the near future, mostly as regards increased damage dice. There's obviously a lot more to be done in dealing with the named/random loot disparity problems, but one of the most basic seems to be making sure that existing earned named weapons properly scale with random ones, especially with the "paragon weapon" change in U20, which put a lot of older named items behind in the most basic of departments- damage dice. Most of the problems regarding this are with raid items, since as Feather previously communicated a decision was made in the prior named item pass to leave these alone with the exception of Tempest's Spine. Most of these items are decent in themselves but sorely lacking in damage dice so as to allow them to compete with random gear. For convenience, I thought I'd make a list, starting with raid items and then moving on to a few others-

The Titan Awakes

Bereavement
Bravo's Short Sword

(These two could also use an augment slot or two as well, imo, just to diversify them more as offhand options)

Plane of Night (Heroic)

Hammer of Life

Zawabi's Revenge (Heroic)

The Green Blade
Chaosblade (Khopesh's need some love as is, might as well make this worth owning)
Storm (already has extra dice, the benefit of which is negated by paragon weapons, so needs the extra half-step)

The Reaver's Fate

Treason (sad to hear this beauty referred to as garbage now; some extra damage dice will fix it right up though)
Cloudburst (very cool, but needs at least the .5 addition that is not standard to this level of loot)
Tenderizer (the unique damage dice don't put this one as much behind, but without another .5 its not ahead too much of random loot either; it'd also be nice to put a truly worthwhile Morningstar on the map)
Dreamspitter (this is still awesome, but could really still use the extra damage step)

Ascension Chamber

(Generally this is the most worthwhile heroic raid, as the loot is awesome and unique. I think that two weapons here, however, despite being generally awesome, need the extra half-step die increase to maintain their place)

Breeze (esp. with all the staff focused stuff going in lately)
Enduring Conviction

A Vision of Destruction

Divine Vengeance (What an awesome weapon concept. Its ruined, however, by being an ML 18 weapon with only a single damage dice and an average damage of 10.45. Double the damage dice and pallys everywhere will rejoice).

Hound of Xoriat

Bonesplitter (really fun stuff on this generally, and bludgeoning weps need love. Definitely needs at least a half a step increase, and more likely a whole one).



There are also a few adventure pack items that need some work as well, as a few items were either missed in the earlier pass, or were considered relevant enough at the time to stay the same, but are no longer so due to the damage bloating accompanying paragon weapons and such.

Reign of Madness

Fang of Siberys (One of the most interesting and beautiful weapons in the game, which for awhile gave Scimis love. I won't be wielding them again until the dice get the boost appropriate to a ML16 item)
Nature's Vengeance
Watcher's Blade
Earthshatter Warhammer

Harbingers of Madness

Bow of Sinew
Turbulent Epee (Still a good DR breaker, but I don't use it for much else anymore, whereas I used to use them all the time)

The Path if Inspiration

(The slightly increased damage on these weapons used to be great, but became less significant in the first pass , which gave the extra step to lots of ML 6 and 8 weps, and even more son when it became standard on random loot. Keeping the unique values and adding a .5, or better, since these are ML 18, 1[w], would make them much more worth the trouble they are to earn.)

Terror
Death's Touch
Dream Edge


As far as I can tell, these are the weapons most damaged by recent loot changes. Most other items have received a pass which upgraded dice and added augment slots, but these are the items which have to be farmed/earned which are now well behind others, and many are considered **** or niche weapons by players. At least some basic changes in many of these will go a long way towards fixing the problems at least as regards named weapons.

[Thumbed_Servant]

I know this is VERY late to this thread.

Shield clickies...they have always been very useful, either to up the armor class of non shield using toons or to mitigate magic missile damage. I no longer see them dropping, and I for one use them on any toon that isn't able to cast shield or night shield. Can you bring those back Droctothorpe?

[FlaviusMaximus]

I just wanted to say great job and thank you for returning and updating weapon prefixes and suffixes to the loot tables.

Hopefully worn item effects are being returned to the loot tables as well, since effects like "convalescent" are still sorely missed by many of us.

[phalaeo]

Hi there, Dr. Loot!

Please put Convalescent/Parrying back in. That's all I can think of until you put up a thread for named loot.

[Silkenwise]

I’m here to listen to you and to keep my eyes on the big picture. Yes, that includes avoiding Ghostbane-situations.
So in the name of listening rather than blathering on and on, I’d like to ask you all a few questions as a sort of pulse-check on the state of loot.

- Aside from the diversity issue, what are the biggest problems with random loot, today?
- What weapon and equipment types do you feel are underserved in named and in random loot?
- I’d love to hear about some of the non-named loot your characters are currently wearing.

I have a serious problem with the scaling of random dropping loot from Non-Chest items.
By this, I mean loot from things like Piles of Gold, Barrels, and the like.

Just a quick example. When you drop in to fight Garamol in the Subterrane, or when you slay the black dragon in Mired in Kobolds, there are massive piles of gold spread on the ground, which are supposed to be a MASS of wealth hoarded by a top tier boss.

You click on it and get.... maybe twenty platinum !?
Each of those piles of gold should be returning THOUSANDS of GOLD PIECES!

I mean, just LOOK at them. Visually they look like thousands of gold, piled up. And if you compare the value of actual cash pulled from these piles of gold, with just a single base item value on a piece of vendor trash loot from any old chest, they BADLY need scaled up. A junk sword from one of the chests will sell for 300+ platinum to a barkeep by itself, but the massive pile is only giving cash worth a tenth of that?

The entire thing needs scaled up.

Ditto for barrels that drop... copper pieces? That isn't even worth the time it takes to click on to pick it up. Players just leave that rotting on the ground.

[Oliphant]

Most of the old epics are super weak. Salvage all that great material and history.

[FlameDiablo]

2 problems with loot:

1: adq drop rate is terribly low for a single place where can drop like 60 different items (120 if yu consider seal + shard), we should need something similar to scrolls but for seals/shards, maybe not 3:1 but 10:1 is still ok. I'm farming ESSR since 3 years, and pretty bored to do

2: i would like to wear all named, but a lot of random gen atm on my toon, this is exactly what i wear or looking for atm (epic variable lvl):
-- belt: dex, dodge, yellow slot
-- gloves: health, false life, colorless slot
-- bracers: healing amp, parrying
-- helm: (lvl 20 to 24 only) charisma, green slot
-- weapons: (lvl 20 to 22 only) elemental based (combustion, fire lore + devotion in my case)

[Onetunge]

First time I got to run CITW I was utterly disaspoinded. My main is always a dwarf wielding a dwarven axe, and CITW doesn't drop not even one one-handed axe of any kind. Would be nice to add dwarven axe as named loot to CITW raid.

[bsquishwizzy]

A Vision of Destruction

Divine Vengeance (What an awesome weapon concept. Its ruined, however, by being an ML 18 weapon with only a single damage dice and an average damage of 10.45. Double the damage dice and pallys everywhere will rejoice).

You know, a set bonus with the shield you get in those quests (Vengeful Protector?) would make farming that stuff viable again. Like you, I think the concept of Divine Vengence is an awesome S&B pally weapon. But it could be so much more.

The unfortunate part is that from about 18 to maybe 24 it’s slim pickings for shields if you are S&B.

[Captain_Wizbang]

... loot from things like Piles of Gold, Barrels, and the like.
The entire thing needs scaled up.


I don't even bother with them anymore.


Ditto for barrels that drop... copper pieces? That isn't even worth the time it takes to click on to pick it up. Players just leave that rotting on the ground.

Copper pcs is much like the American Penny. ONE state is the reason we still have it. Copper being one of the monetary cornerstones of D&D has become worthless in today's DDO.

As for the intent of the thread, the loot system got fubared when Faerun content got released.

Make Tod sets worthwhile, give GS a +.5 bump, Give DT armor a boost...... I say spend some time to make older named items/sets on a more level playing field. Some of the Epic upgrades are nice, but it wasn't done consistently. Those gaps in development have made a % of older stuff dust collectors.

[Zorzon]

I always liked the idea of item growth. I get a little bored everytime I TR and open my reincarnation bank: lots of items with the same properties and statuses, but each one designed for a specific character level. I think items could have some features that would be automatically unlocked as your character grows in level. Look at Cannith Challenge itens, for instance: there are a lot of variations, each one intended for a specific level range. How about if you wore then at, say, level 4, and they were automatically unlocking upgrades as your level increases? I suppose coding would be painful, but the player´s life would be simplified. That would make farming for lower level stuff alive again, since even weak itens would end up getting strong (the concept would be the same as the flame blade spell: features unlock as you druid´s level increases).

Maybe I am dreaming while i write these ideas, but, anyway, none can blame me for trying.

Best of luck for you all!

[Tscheuss]

I always liked the idea of item growth. I get a little bored everytime I TR and open my reincarnation bank: lots of items with the same properties and statuses, but each one designed for a specific character level. I think items could have some features that would be automatically unlocked as your character grows in level. Look at Cannith Challenge itens, for instance: there are a lot of variations, each one intended for a specific level range. How about if you wore then at, say, level 4, and they were automatically unlocking upgrades as your level increases? I suppose coding would be painful, but the player´s life would be simplified. That would make farming for lower level stuff alive again, since even weak itens would end up getting strong (the concept would be the same as the flame blade spell: features unlock as you druid´s level increases).

Maybe I am dreaming while i write these ideas, but, anyway, none can blame me for trying.

Best of luck for you all!

This sounds like an intelligent weapon/item that could level up with you. Very powerful because of this versatility, and likely a rare named.

[Glascanon]

As a Tank i am still stucked on those Epic Gloves of the Claw. Its the only item i get Enhanced Intimidate from.
Since some Bosses need a huge Intimidation Skill (upp to 108 LOB) to sucsessfully Intimidate them and Intimidate is the most important Skill for Tanks i cant get rid of the enhanced Intimmidate from those Gloves.
But on the other Hand those Gloves are far from up to date in Stats.
I would love to see this Effect on an colorless Argument witch u can get only by making the Gloves Epic and unslott it.
So u still have to farm the Item to get the argument but u get the possibility to slot it in the new Gloves from 3B cove or elsewhere.

[Kawai]

Epic Tiefling Assassins Blade plz.

& chop chop

[Krushemall]

Probably already been mentioned before but I got forum blind after the first 4 or 5 pages - I have to agree some randgen loot drops are as good as or better in some cases than named items or some of the older epic items. You only need run the Wheloon or Stormhorn chains and see the drops you get there besides the selected named items. Have had numerous +10 Deadly / Accuracy items. tons of +10 stat of parrying/50hp/ele res 50 etc etc.... I think the loot tables are just about ok at the moment but I would love to see a return of weapon suffixes like "... of a thousand suns" or ".. of devastation". I have a klhopesh on a bank toon +6 improved cusrespewing khopesh of devastation which is weakening, enfeebling, maladroit, bone breaking and tendon slice 10%....Before anyone says it, yes its level 26 and at epic levels stat damagers are useless, I still cant bear to throw it out - after playing since beta when finding a +5 anything was a cause for celebration let alone soemthing like that.. anyways I digress...

I'd like to see the "loot rewards based on class" option adressed, it seems to work ok'ish in some areas like giant hold but then in others like the high road, stormhorns, wheloon etc it throws a curve ball from left field - I mean my shuricannon (12 monk / 5 wizard / 3 rogue) regularly gets offered greataxes, greatswords, docents, heavy armour.. i.e. anything and everything that is just about completely bloody useless to that build... Oh, and more shurikens... i'm using thunderforged ones at the moment which work quite nicely thankyou, and i also have a selection of very handy ones from the eveningstar challenges (love the spell plague effect, especially as the toon is in shiradi, all thsoe effects going off are just nuts!!)... It would be nice to see some in the general loot table with epic effects such as vorpal, smiting, banishing etc etc...

anyways, thats just my tuppence worth...

see yis in game...

K.