An introduction: you can call me Doctor Loot

[jakeelala]

We've heard you all loud and clear regarding raid/named/random loot power, and yes, we agree. Named loot should stick around; raid loot should really stick around; and random loot should fill the gaps. We're digging in on taking theory back to practice here (as well as all the other big issues you invoked), and you can expect more information to make its way here, as we deploy changes based on on-going player feedback to places like Lamannia. Experience tells me that you'll see results slower than you might wish (i.e. within the hour :-P) - but hopefully a little sooner than you're accustomed to. I'll post more clarifying questions here as warranted, and as I mentioned above, another similar thread targeting named loot will be coming around on the merry-go-round.

Thanks, all, for weighing in!

Your 'umble servant,
DrOctothorpe

P.S. And don't let this note stop you from sharing your thoughts here. I'll keep watch as best I can.

No. Really rare random loot at the highest drop levels should compete with mid range named/raid loot. Remember: variety is the spice of ddo.

Just don't repeat the EE dream visor being replaced by lvl 15 loot gen 1 update later.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water: good random loot that fills gaps in named loot and opens up more possibilities = good

Lootgen that is better than named loot 10 levels higher = bad.

Please try to find a middle road, and don't nerd lootgen. Just make it more varied, more interesting, and slightly less competitive with the best raid loot. Running lvl 28 quests on EE is out of reach for a lot of players, those who can should be rewarded for it the same as people who grind raid loot. Today, almost every drop from lootgen at that level is compelling, which means it's OP or your raid just really really sucks (largely the case).

I'm not optimistic about how this will go down buti hope you give me a reason to be.

[dunklezhan]

Please don't leave out Cannith Crafting.

This. Very much this.

I said it myself earlier, but it bears repeating, loud and often.

[whereispowderedsilve]

Could you do us a huge favor? Could you articulate what you perceive to be the problem with "ghostbane situations"? (My view would be that ghostbane is problematic because it's a +1 enchantment that can't be cannith-crafted except as two separate +1 enchantments.)

Good question! Hopefully Doc Oct will see it! Cheers! :P! ! !

[nibel]

Oh, another point about random items that I forgot on my first response.

Please, bring back the slot limitation.

We used to be able to only get certain enchantments in specific slots, with "rings" being the blank that accepted anything. Eg, you could only get +Constitution on necklaces and belts, only get Striding on boots, only getting +Search in goggles, and so on. In some ways, it was better for itemization because you knew what you were trading off when you put on a named item. (Eg, if I wanted to use Bracers of Wind since level 3, I lost one possible slot for Strength, Parrying and Armored).

It would also reempower the efficiency of flexible shards in cannith crafting.

Nowadays it seems like you can get any combination of enchantments in any kind of gear. I've seem Deadly on goggles, helms, rings, cloaks, bracers, and gloves. Stats in almost all items (including a +Charisma boots. How?). Elemental resistance/absorption anywhere as well. It makes itemization kinda... too easy. "Oh, I'm missing +con, but my bracer is discartable. I'll search +con bracers on the AH."

[Hafeal]

This. Very much this.

I said it myself earlier, but it bears repeating, loud and often.

And I keep wondering about what Producer Glin stated on the most recent "Ask the Devs" on DDOcast: that Cannith Crafting needed an overhaul but he could not justify the effort for the result and therefore, don't expect CC updates anytime soon.

[SisAmethyst]

No. Really rare random loot at the highest drop levels should compete with mid range named/raid loot. Remember: variety is the spice of ddo.

Just don't repeat the EE dream visor being replaced by lvl 15 loot gen 1 update later. ...

This, don't do a 180° back paddling. When we started items with Vorpal for example where quite rare and on the other hand quite powerful as well as Metalline of Pure Good was rare and god like especially as a Harry beater. With the inflation of mob HP and drop rates this has changed however. But it would be nice to have this 'wow cool' effect again when you suddenly pull a random item that really shines out in a chest from which you haven't expected anything special (named loot).

Problem is we even don't have this wow effect any-more with named items. I mean the first time I pulled a spellstoring ring and bloodstone I had a big grin on my face as like on Christmas. Now the drop rate is still insane but I would just shrug as you can find random loot that is better or on a more suitable slot.

[Systern]

We've heard you all loud and clear regarding raid/named/random loot power, and yes, we agree. Named loot should stick around; raid loot should really stick around; and random loot should fill the gaps. We're digging in on taking theory back to practice here (as well as all the other big issues you invoked), and you can expect more information to make its way here, as we deploy changes based on on-going player feedback to places like Lamannia. Experience tells me that you'll see results slower than you might wish (i.e. within the hour :-P) - but hopefully a little sooner than you're accustomed to. I'll post more clarifying questions here as warranted, and as I mentioned above, another similar thread targeting named loot will be coming around on the merry-go-round.

Thanks, all, for weighing in!

Your 'umble servant,
DrOctothorpe

P.S. And don't let this note stop you from sharing your thoughts here. I'll keep watch as best I can.

Okay, it's been 2 and a half hours.... Where's the results?!?!

[Oxarhamar]

I am horribly, horribly embarrassed; so much so that I've gone back and edited the original post. DrOctothorpe does not make punctuation errors... except, apparently, for when he does! I'm so glad you all did not shun this thread on account of that faux pas.

to err is human

much rather have human devs than corporate robots...warforged is ok thou

[Melondrop]

Like everyone else said the problem with random loot is its overpowered compared to the rest of the loot out there.
Me personally i would like to see updates to alot of quest/raid loot tables instead of nerfing random loot.
People would run older content more if the loot was updated every now and then.
Make some really hard to get unique weapons/armor, or make crafters be able to craft unique weapons/armor.
Its always nice to have a carrot to go after, and to have something thats tailored just to you.

There are a ton of crafting systems in the game and quite a few of them could use a overhaul.
Greensteel could use some new effects, or more tiers.
Cannith crafting was supposed to be fun and useful, but its become so convoluted with trying to tie it into the store that its basically useless.

So please add better stuff to existing quests/raids and totally redo cannith crafting so its quicker and easier to make things.

[Hadesborne]

I understand this sentiment and I agree with the drop rate issue. I place this in the context of level caps though - as the game has grown and we had caps (10, 12, 14, 16 etc), loot had staying power because of caps. As the levels have grown though, I never had the expectation that great level 12 gear should be a game lifetime achievement - especially past level 20.

Actually, you are pretty much dead wrong here. DEAD WRONG. I for the longest time had The Blood Stone equipped on my lvl 20, atleast for more than a year of straight grinding, as well as 2 green steel weaps, a con opp neck and a green steel helm. Where is it now? sitting in the bank for when I TR again. It is "kind of" acceptable now that I am lvl 28 for these lvl 11+ items to be outdated, but just 2 levelS ago at lvl 26 I obtained the +8 Epic giant's belt. It lasted less than a month before I swapped it for a random +9 str with 40hp and a colorless slot. And here's the kicker. There were 4 of them in the AH when I bought it for 20kpp. FOUR!!! It wasn't as if the stars aligned just right and I looted this amazing item. It was COMMON. A common item just replaced a rare item of equal level, EASILY.
THERE IS NO WAY YOU CAN TELL ME THIS IS HOW A GAME SHOULD WORK

For years you kept dangling this carrot in front of our eyes, this EPIC loot, like Lucy holding the football out for us to kick. Then you give us crazy random loot and ruin everything, effectively yanking the football out from under our feet right as we are about to kick. Maybe people complained that the epic gear was too hard to get. The solution was simple, up the drop rates on shards/seals/scrolls a bit more. Don't go all BULL IN THE CHINA CLOSET on the system and remove all the old items from relevance. Any 6 year old can do that. They can give everyone everything they want cause it will make them feel better. Listen if we wanted GOD MODE, then games like DUKE NUKEM would still be played all over.

Level cap raises be damned, I want my gear to last 9 levels. I want it to be RARE as hell. I want toil. I want strife. I want a damned sense of accomplishment. If I don't get it, I am sure another game will reward me with these things.

This is your dilemma DDO.

Fix loot or lose customers.
Currently the best way to fix loot is to scale back the random loot BIGTIME. It is the only way to fix this situation. Making better loot faster is just more GOD MODE.
Please disable the cheats DDO.

Palantin of Kyber
Lvl 28 paladin
The Dragon Order of Arcanix

[LightBear]

- Aside from the diversity issue, what are the biggest problems with random loot, today?
It lacks fantasy, linear scaling is one thing not having options is another.
It lacks diversity, both in enchantment types and where it can be found on.
The race restrictions where nice and by passable by UMD, Cursed items cannot be cleansed. Tho Cursed items did not need UMD.
The power to level ratio seems off for a lot of enchantments (like superior stability), most of the times in disfavor of the wearer of such an item.
Some unnamed random abilities go higher then the spell like equivalent.
- What weapon and equipment types do you feel are underserved in named and in random loot?
Trinkets do not appear on the random loot generation list.
Named Armor is never bypassed by Unnamed Armor unless 10 levels or more higher, but by that time there are better named options out there.
Daggers, hardly any reason to use one. But this is more a Class/Feats/Presitige Enhancements/Epic Destiny thingy.
- I’d love to hear about some of the non-named loot your characters are currently wearing.
Seeker, Speed, Deadly, Accuracy, Natural Armor, Doublestrike, Parrying, Deflection, Resistance.

..

[Skavenaps]

- Aside from the diversity issue, what are the biggest problems with random loot, today?
First of all, the name. Really name makes a big diference. lots of named weapons from pnp are just a flaming +1 sword with a proper name.
Second, when i usally dont read the loot window after you deliver a quest, basically cause i know there will be nothing of interest (and cause im normally rushing to farm xp, so check items its usally a waste of my time)
- What weapon and equipment types do you feel are underserved in named and in random loot?
I miss the BIG classics from pnp. Please, just pick the dm manual, and add the items. they dont need to be uber, they just need to be into any d&d game. archmages tunic (with 3 colors), demonic armor (with the proper looks) and so on.
- I’d love to hear about some of the non-named loot your characters are currently wearing.
Deadly are great and a +8 stat wrist of whatever with a slot so i can make my own EE bracelets of endless toil

[Portalcat]

Perhaps a slightly off-the-wall suggestion: add level-appropriate wondrous craftmanship to more, if not all, quest chain rewards lists. It does a lot to make quest chain turn-ins for Wheloon and Storm Horns more valuable and fun after you've already picked up any normal level named loot that would be useful (if there's any).

In general, wondrous craftmanship items were a good idea. They add a smattering of power and excitement to the random loot system without adding any affixes that are systematically problematic.

[RavenAmazing]

I am reading the same exact complaining that has been on this forum forever. Same exact issues, word for word.

The fact that this thread shot to 20 pages deep in 5 days is a clue.

I disagree with 95 % of what is in this thread, however, since I am in that small minority of forumites, I can't help but feel that all you want to do is please the endgamers and elitists with no regard for a casual gamer.

I like the random loot. It allows me the opportunity to complete many quests that I would normally fail.

[Miahoo]

I didn't read all 20 pages. But I'm here to tell exactly what I feel about loot in general.

I had some big excitement capping my 1st toon. Finally feeling epic content, farming the shroud for beaters and gathering loot!

Not much later, the Chrono raid appeared. It was a blast!! Best set in game (and a trinket to complete 2nd best set in game). And farming took a step forward.

Then, the kobolds event came - we got more items, more loot, which was by far better - still not as much as the Chrono set - I was so happy to fill some alts with BtA awesome loot.

Shortly after, we got the Cannith challenges and crafting. Massive farming and grinding for loot started - it was literally "farm for loot", period, no skill involved (nor luck). more runs = more loot. Entire shroud beaters become trash, as the Cannith crafting bring way better boss beaters.

The 1st expansion wasn't too devastating with loot imo - citw farming started.

High road and GH epic appeared, which completely killed the Chrono set farming. But hey! we got some awesome epics now! and the EE Dream Visor is so good!

Well... 2 months later, all the random appears. The Chrono set is a joke, the Dream Visor is now a complete trash!

I'm begging you, stop trashing my gear. My bank is full with gear (which used to be best at that time) I just feel bad to trash out all this hours of grinding and loot drama.

-----------

Rant aside. I think it's great we have someone to take a look at this.

I think the main problem with loot I have now is weapon wise.

Back then I used to carry 7 different sets. Now I have The Sireth, the crit range is too good to be replaced even by a beater or any other weapon.
Same goes with my ranger using the Pinion as a bow and Balizarde for melee.

I'd like to see some variety for good weapons in game. (srsly, most weapons are a complete joke).
More Stunning / Combat Mastery items will be nice.

For your request, my current non-named loot is:
Ring: CON +9 FL +45
Belt: STR +9 Seeker X
Bracers: 30% Healing Amp (Not dropping in game currently)
Goggles: Deadly +8 Resistance +9

[kmoustakas]

Sorries but I am not going to read all 20 pages of posts! I would really like to say what I missed about old loot though: you had wondrous items for every level range!

For example, at low levels you could happen upon riptide items or lacerating items which were awesome and then you had them as a combo riptide of lacerating for an epic-feel good moment! At levels 6-8 you had sun's fury, chaotic (the cursespewing+true chaos), pandemonium items. At levels 10 you had all sorts of smiters/banishers/disruptors. At 12 you had desert sand. For armors you had greater warding which was kinda cool. No matter what level you were, you were always hoping for something to drop for you. Right now, you just hope you get guild renown at end reward and you don't even bother 'examining' every item to see what it does. It will be elemental of random suffix nobody cares, with the small exceptions being keen of bloodletter and holy of ghostbane which translate well to higher levels as well. But that's only because these are good 'combos', they are not great abilities. Just because bloodletter is better than maiming doesn't mean it's good! Because flaming 2 does more damage than flaming burst doesn't mean it's better! Suggestions: bring those back. Elemental of 1d4 or 2d4 or 3d4 or 10d4 being level appropriate is of absolutely no use. But frost and riptide are a great difference: when you chance upon a riptide item, you know you got lucky. When you chance into a min level 10 pandemonium of lacerating you KNOW you got lucky and you got something cool and useful. And when you find +1 riptide of icy depths and then you run to icy kit it, you win!

As far as items and deadly being op'ed goes. Compare deadly to seeking. They have the same numbers: +10 enhancement worth item is +10 damage or +10 damage on criticals. If you can't see that something is wrong there, then there's something wrong with you. And don't forget how seeking +6 at level 9 (bloodstone or even marilith chain at 12) was thought to be one of the best damage options not that long ago.

For reference, right before tr'ing my ranger I was using
Greater convalecence of superior parrying bracers
Deadly +10 of resistance +9 necklace (OP!)
Was looking for health +10 of GFL +50 and ogre power +10 seeking +10 and dexterity +10 of protection or natural armor +10 items but they were so expensive and only on asah so I couldn't buy them so I decided to TR until their prices drop a bit

[Qhualor]

We've heard you all loud and clear regarding raid/named/random loot power, and yes, we agree. Named loot should stick around; raid loot should really stick around; and random loot should fill the gaps. We're digging in on taking theory back to practice here (as well as all the other big issues you invoked), and you can expect more information to make its way here, as we deploy changes based on on-going player feedback to places like Lamannia. Experience tells me that you'll see results slower than you might wish (i.e. within the hour :-P) - but hopefully a little sooner than you're accustomed to. I'll post more clarifying questions here as warranted, and as I mentioned above, another similar thread targeting named loot will be coming around on the merry-go-round.

Thanks, all, for weighing in!

Your 'umble servant,
DrOctothorpe

P.S. And don't let this note stop you from sharing your thoughts here. I'll keep watch as best I can.

Careful. You might become a fan favorite if you do as you say

[ThomasHunter]

I am also one who loves the new random loot, especially if Turbine is adding back in the U14 affects! That is going to be awesome!

That said, I also understand that named loot should be a bit more fun/special. I really love most of the GH loot and how that was handled. With a tweaking of augments, this could be even better.

As I said earlier, I love pursuing named loot. The commendation turn-ins from U14 with all of the armor sets is still my favorite. I know as a largely casual player, that getting named loot tends to be tough (I'm okay with that). When I get something cool, it's usually months later when in a PUG and no one wants the item!!! (I'm also okay with that!)

What I would love to see is the possibility to upgrade the normal items to the elite items. Maybe another use of the new Commendations of Valor? I use a heroic normal Wall of Wood with my level 23 cleric and I still use it. I was just alerted to the white dragon shield, so will pursue that next. However, I almost certainly will never do that on EE (I really dislike EE questing).

So random loot is good - with bringing back older affects. Named loot is one of the main reasons I love to quest - for that elusive item (I'm still awaiting a first drop of that cool named stuff from U19 - which I am aware that most folks don't like). I don't raid all that often, but the flexibility and power should top off with raid loot (as sad as I am about that, it makes sense in general). Oh yeah, give me more set bonuses to work towards!

Thank you for your consideration!

[patang01]

Oh, another point about random items that I forgot on my first response.

Please, bring back the slot limitation.

We used to be able to only get certain enchantments in specific slots, with "rings" being the blank that accepted anything. Eg, you could only get +Constitution on necklaces and belts, only get Striding on boots, only getting +Search in goggles, and so on. In some ways, it was better for itemization because you knew what you were trading off when you put on a named item. (Eg, if I wanted to use Bracers of Wind since level 3, I lost one possible slot for Strength, Parrying and Armored).

It would also reempower the efficiency of flexible shards in cannith crafting.

Nowadays it seems like you can get any combination of enchantments in any kind of gear. I've seem Deadly on goggles, helms, rings, cloaks, bracers, and gloves. Stats in almost all items (including a +Charisma boots. How?). Elemental resistance/absorption anywhere as well. It makes itemization kinda... too easy. "Oh, I'm missing +con, but my bracer is discartable. I'll search +con bracers on the AH."

I'm opposite that; make magical permutations exist on more diverse gear. Making certain permutations only exist in some slots create far more pigeon holing then solve issues of flexibility. I want to be able to find a spellpower ring like before. Or helmet. Or bracers. I don't want to be forced to get it on scepter or shield only.
Or heal amp.

I mean what kind of 'magical' creation logic dictates that only rings can have x and only scepters y? It makes no sense. It's better to add flexibility in order to make random items viable alongside given named items, instead of always looking for the pre-eminent item for a given slot. You'll find a lot less diversity that way and it leads to gold standard items for given slots.

The problem with 'deadly' is that it's one of those that blew other similar named items out of the water AND that there were so few permutations on these items that it seems like everything is deadly of something alongside ghostbane. The problem is not the items they're on (that's a good thing) - is that there are so few things to pull in those slots.

[XavierElanor]

-

5) Power vs. named/raid loot. Some random gen loot is so powerful that it totally eclipses raid/named loot of the same, or even higher level. This is absurd.

1000 times this. In just one update many of the most sought after items became vendor trash. Loot gen items should enver be more powerful than named items.