An introduction: you can call me Doctor Loot

[Ungood]

I have to kinda of laugh at some of the posts I have heard so far, I mean, to the Dev, think back to the time Before MotuD, when things had staying power.

Things like the Minos Legends, ML11, would serve someone well to 20th, and then into Epic content.
Gear like GreenSteel, would last well into 20th, and long into Epic as well.

In fact, a large chunk of Raid gear, from the Sword of Shadows (ML10), Torq, and RoSS, would last a toons life time, not just a few levels. They would serve a player in their heroic incarnate until that player could farm up the means to transform them into their epic form, which would be in some cases, years.

In the face of that kind of staying power of older gear and the game designed around it, a few levels is a joke, it makes it so that a massive part of the game just dies, it's not even worth trying to farm raid gear or even doing the raid if the gear is only going to last a few levels against loot-gen, because with dismal drop rates and timers on raids, by the time you get it, you will have outgrown it, so only the raids that are at the level cap will be worth doing and the rest of it may as well not even exist unless it's just as twink trash.

So all that design work, all that effort to build it all, all that effort to sell it, just flushed down the toilet.

Loot does not need a revamp it needs a roll-back.

[Jasparion]

The game should not reward 'effort' but should reward achievement.

Going to the AH and buying random loot which is vastly better than named items with a 10% drop rate or raid items with an even lower drop rate is my issue. Im guessing you arent disagreeing with that?

And even though a particular raid may be "easier" than a particular dungeon, I dont see many LFMs up for anything these days (often I see none for level 20+ content), so my guess is it is easier to complete an undermanned EE dungeon than an undermanned EE raid.

Mind you, the other day I saw an LFM for Hard Shroud which was level 23 to 28 only. So maybe sometimes it is the players at fault, not Turbine...

[Meetch1972]

Ok, I'd love to see something that makes the raid loot from the "old" raids a little more worthwhile. Items such as Tharnes, Leviks and so on are ok at the raid level, but getting the item often takes the full 20 completions, at which point even a casual player is 5 levels over the raid, and even then it's (is it?) possible that the item doesn't show up on the reward list.

Right now I'm reluctant to login because the gear on my monk which used to be considered pretty darn good around L16 leaves me with a very ordinary AC, amongst other things, and I'm wondering just how broken it will appear if I join a group and learn that something else I've got isn't worth as much to me as I remember.

How about having named items scale one or two of their better attributes for every X levels above the ML of the item? Tharne's goggles would be much sweeter if the spot/search bonus climbed by a point or two every couple of levels of the character wearing it. Or what about adding +1 to the bloodstone every few levels? I'd try to make it scale so that perhaps a named item with ML of say 13-15 falls maybe a point short of the best random gear available in its category at cap.

Meh, just thinking...

[sirgog]

I was obsessed with trying to get Obscenity weapons for almost a year after they came out. Now that the life drain effect has been changed from what it has been in the recent past, this weapon ability does not need to be reintroduced into the loot tables. It's a shame.

Have another look at Obscenity. It's not just a neg level mod, it has many many dice of damage on it too. IIRC it does 5d6 damage to neutral mobs and the rare good mob, and 2d6 to evil. It's still good against neutral mobs with high fortification; if the neg level pops, bonus.

Plus the name is just cool.

[lyrecono]

i see many posts about upgrading old loot,

Be very carefull with that though. Some gear is just good at that level but should be surpassed by better gear at a higher level
A good example of this being a bad idea is the old epic gear that required shards/seals/scrolls and the base item to get.
This type of gear should no longer be relevant at lv 25 let allone 28 and 30 in the future. the best way of dealing with it, is having the epic versions drop in the epic quests and to remove the entire seal/shard/scroll part of it.
At lv 28 the ESOS, Eclaw, Echrono set, EAGA (and many more) should not be relevant. They are lv 20 item and should have been considered as such just a lv 20 item. Having random loot come close to their power at lv 28 is fine, but there should be more powerfull named loot at lv 25-28.

An ESoS should not be the best 2handed weapon out there at lv 28 (not counting quarterstaf buiilds ofc)
all that "old"epic gear should be what it always was, nice lv 20 twink gear, nothing more.
And it's up to the developers to provide gear needed to keep us going.

For a long whille all those half orcs have looked the same, (e)SoS with Epic Marilith Chain/epic red scale,
Now its bladeforged, (e)SoS with (epic) blackscale docent everywhere you look.
We have Armor kits, but having a weapon kit wouldn't work anyway, we need better gear at lv 28 (and lv30 in the future)
The named items in U19 and U20 were terrible and need a make over.

And most of all: stop taking notes from bad designers, Neverwinter online and Dungen and dragons 4.0.
There are good reasons why people have such a distaste for those and play DDO/ Pathfinder (an advanced dungeons and dragons 3.5)

Good luck doc, youre gone need it

[PhotoRob]

A named item is a trophy of sorts that shows to others your accomplishment of acquiring such a "rare" item. Admittedly the logic is extremely flawed but many players still hold to it. If it is not named they do not want to be using it because random gen is "noobish". This is pretty universal in every MMO. People want their "1337 W4@P0N5" to be unique and special. So best in slot always has to be some kind of unique named or crafted (shroud style) weapon. Because of this mind set you will see many people using named weapons long after Random Gen starts dropping superior versions.

The irony is that veteran players all end up using the same few weapons with the same few skins, thus making them neither "unique" nor "special".

In my case, I build characters around a specific concept. If named loot doesn't match that concept, I won't use it - I don't care how good it is. If that makes me a "noob", then I'm *proud* to wear the title.

[RedOrm]

Lots of people playing DDO don't have English as their native language (not saying that it's not possible for them to have a better command of the language than native-English-speaking people, but anyway...). So maybe using all those different words to describe basically the same effect in different degrees is not the best way to go. Light I-II-III-IV etc. is simpler imo.

I'm actually one of those lots of people, english is my third language. And yes, numbers ARE simpler, that's the whole point. Simpler, and boring as all he**.
Which I was trying to counter, as I'm also one of the people who feel that dullness VI of boring VII items are bad for the game. Even David Hasselhoff is better than that :P

Greetz,
Red Orm

[EllisDee37]

At lv 28 the ESOS, Eclaw, Echrono set, EAGA (and many more) should not be relevant. They are lv 20 item and should have been considered as such just a lv 20 item.

For a long time (years?) when the level cap was 20, there were multiple level 11 items that were quite relevant for endgame builds.

The "should be"s you've been using are only "should be" in your opinion, not based on past DDO precedent.

[lyrecono]

For a long time (years?) when the level cap was 20, there were multiple level 11 items that were quite relevant for endgame builds.

The "should be"s you've been using are only "should be" in your opinion, not based on past DDO precedent.

i remember,
Stuff like minos legends? greensteels?
Greensteels are lv 11/12 (even lv 8 in the past) but require you to run a lv 17 raid many times to complete and cleanse?

this only shows that the loot design of the last few years has been lacking.
There is a huge difference between shroud crafting and canith raid upgraded gear (the later was too weak for what it gave, the only nice stuff was handwraps and shields)

[CaptainSpacePony]

We sure would like to see gear from Cannith Challenge and crystal cove expanded to higher levels. Level 24 versions sooner rather than later, and eventually level 28s. I understand if the latter takes a while for the Cannith stuff since they challenges themselves stop at lvl 25 (which should also be kicked up).

With the exception of the Mournlode stuff, the Cannith gear is all very nice and most heroic toons benefit greatly by having access to it. I wish it held true through epic content.

[Ungood]

i remember,
Stuff like minos legends? greensteels?
Greensteels are lv 11/12 (even lv 8 in the past) but require you to run a lv 17 raid many times to complete and cleanse?

this only shows that the loot design of the last few years has been lacking.
There is a huge difference between shroud crafting and canith raid upgraded gear (the later was too weak for what it gave, the only nice stuff was handwraps and shields)

It was a bit more board then that and it depended on your toon, but some times, low level items would last a life time very easy, for example:

Minos Legend
Ring of Spell Storing
Torc of Prince Raiyum-de II
Any Greensteel item 11/12
Spectral Gloves
Chattering Ring
Seven Finger Gloves
Kundark Delving Boots.
Beholder Optic Nerves
Belt of Brute Strength.

And this is just a few things off the top of my head, and I am stopping at around 11th, to give an idea that even 9 levels was meaningless compared the usefulness of named/raid gear to the game for many years.

I could get crazy and list really low level items like:

VoM/Mantle (which are 5th level)
Pale Lavender Ioun Stones.

to show that some named items NEVER get outdated, and can last 15+ right into the current epic content.

I could also add in items that are very situational like:

Scarab of Protection,
Bubble Belt
Mummified Bat
Bottle of Air
Ring of Feathers
Visor of the Fleshrender guards
Royal Guard Mask
Ring of the Ancestors

In fact.. I could show you something amazing, ponder this:

Necklace of the Archivist was commonly kept by most casters well into their 20's

That's right, the starting "noob gear" named necklace, was still viable as a part of a players survival kit into the epic content.

See that is what separates great loot design from the trash we have been suffering through with the new system.

When even when you are wearing better.. you STILL keep it.. because it's a handy item to have.

This is not even talking about the fact that most of this gear was not replaced by Loot-Gen, but by other Named items.

There was a lot more going on here then I think you even realized when it came to loot and how it was designed into this game from the start. The original form of this game, gear scores and a constant hamster wheel of BiS every few levels, was not the way this MMO was built, not even close, raid loot, named gear, had staying power, it was worth grinding for, that was why players bothered to grind for it to start with, because they believed it would last them, it would be worth it in the long run.

The fact that FoS tried to transform it into that kind of MMO really warped the entire foundation of the game and the structure of understand that the long standing players had, and in a game this loot centered, that is about the worst thing that could have been done.

I hope the new person realizes this, stops this process, and reverts it back to a system were named/raid items have staying power, where they are worth grinding for, and not just glorified loot-gen.

[Hafeal]

Minos Legend
Ring of Spell Storing
Torc of Prince Raiyum-de II
Any Greensteel item 11/12
Spectral Gloves
Chattering Ring
Seven Finger Gloves
Kundark Delving Boots.
Beholder Optic Nerves
Belt of Brute Strength.


VoM/Mantle (which are 5th level)
Pale Lavender Ioun Stones.


Scarab of Protection,
Bubble Belt
Mummified Bat
Bottle of Air
Ring of Feathers
Visor of the Fleshrender guards
Royal Guard Mask
Ring of the Ancestors



See that is what separates great loot design from the trash we have been suffering through with the new system.

While I agree with you, some re-design of the current loot system is warranted, your list is very illustrative. If you were lucky enough to have any or few of the items on the list above - you were powerful and golden for a long time. But casual players, or perhaps unlucky players, rarely pull those items; in almost 8 years now, I have never pulled a Royal Guard Mask, Beholder Optic Nerves, Torc, or Ring of the Ancestors. Sure, some items like Minos, result from a 'light' grind. I haven't really 'ground' out Shroud since the blade debacle - and that raid, along with all others, is now truly a grind for new players without greensteel.

Part of loot revamp, as I recall, was to make random loot relevant again and to make it so that players didn't feel the 'need' to grind these items and players aren't expected to all have the same equipment. At the same time, if you did get a named item, it would stand out as rare and special. I still think having the items on your list is great - if you are lucky enough to get them. But in no way should loot, like that on your list, be what are wearing above 20 except in an emergency nor should it be a 'requirement' below 20 - giving players moar lootzy options is better imo. Having +20 level loot with some features of named loot is awesome - even spreading out features below 20 is awesome, not everyone should be required to wear Minos; that was bad design.

What I believe I read in this thread is that players who do ground 'named' items want them to be stepped up so that random stuff with similar features is still not as good - at that level range. I can be on board with that - "non-ground out" named loot should be special and stand out. Ground out loot, like Minos, does not need to be as special - it IS the reward to get loot with specific attributes you want without having to get lucky with random loot or pulling a named item.

[voodoogroves]

While I agree with you, some re-design of the current loot system is warranted, your list is very illustrative. If you were lucky enough to have any or few of the items on the list above - you were powerful and golden for a long time. But casual players, or perhaps unlucky players, rarely pull those items; in almost 8 years now, I have never pulled a Royal Guard Mask, Beholder Optic Nerves, Torc, or Ring of the Ancestors. Sure, some items like Minos, result from a 'light' grind. I haven't really 'ground' out Shroud since the blade debacle - and that raid, along with all others, is now truly a grind for new players without greensteel.

Part of loot revamp, as I recall, was to make random loot relevant again and to make it so that players didn't feel the 'need' to grind these items and players aren't expected to all have the same equipment. At the same time, if you did get a named item, it would stand out as rare and special. I still think having the items on your list is great - if you are lucky enough to get them. But in no way should loot, like that on your list, be what are wearing above 20 except in an emergency nor should it be a 'requirement' below 20 - giving players moar lootzy options is better imo. Having +20 level loot with some features of named loot is awesome - even spreading out features below 20 is awesome, not everyone should be required to wear Minos; that was bad design.

What I believe I read in this thread is that players who do ground 'named' items want them to be stepped up so that random stuff with similar features is still not as good - at that level range. I can be on board with that - "non-ground out" named loot should be special and stand out. Ground out loot, like Minos, does not need to be as special - it IS the reward to get loot with specific attributes you want without having to get lucky with random loot or pulling a named item.

Some may - but let me be a bit clearer.

When a named item can drop with a neat ability or a special ML - that's worth hunting for. When the best you can get sub-20 is a +6 stat, then those raid items that provide +6 stat at an earlier ML are totally worth grinding for. Less so with crafting ... and even less so when lootgen now drops 4 levels lower. Those are the things that need to be udpated.

When an effect is rare, but neat, maybe you grind for it. Remember when they changed the attack/accuracy shards in Cannith crafting and borked the ML of all that +4 attack stuff people wanted to craft? My Blindness Ward of Attack goggles went from ML 9 or so to I think 19 or 21. Yep, attack +4 is horibly overpowered ... except that it now drops on ML7 (or mastercraft ML5) gear.

For a time, it was kinda neat that one of the best AC light armors was still dropping from HoX - even after the AC pass. Until it got genericized and now is basically nothing special anymore.

There needs to be bad loot and bad raid loot. Has to be. Part of the problem right now was (I think) a desire to make more "good" loot. It should totally be possible to have stars-align nifty random lootgen.

But we need to have goals to aim for ... grind for ... whatever. If someone does want to grind out a freaking 3 piece Glacial Assault set, the spell power combined should be solid - and not worse than ML16 cannith challenge gear or mastercrafted lootgen. Stat 8 and spell school focus 4 on easy to get heroic-normal gear for ML15 or so was a big shift in marginalizing lots of old loot. In epic levels, the prevalence of resistance 9/10 on random stuff means trying to fit in an augment of finding/keeping that thing with resistance 6 or 7 on it is no longer a decision - grab a 9 or 10. Hell, I keep pulling resistance 6 items ML11 or ML9 in heroic.

It's a different game when you want resist 5 so you decide to build out a set of DT armor or grind for a pair of Boots of the Innocent. Maybe you take that Cloak of the Stormsinger or whatever that has resist 4 on it because it fits in your gear set better. Then you are planning and hunting for gear ... not just going to the AH finding something with resist and a socket on it in the slot you want.


AND, any update doesn't need to be an update to all the old items. Maybe update some, but have some be simply "if you want the new one, you have to run it". People will run it for relevant gear.

My worry is that the cat/bag, horse/barn whatever point has passed. In order to make loot worth hunting for, it now has to be better than U19-20 random and easy to get stuff. Worse still, we don't freaking need it. The heroic loot was already good enough, if you had raid loot it was nice on previous lives but not super essential. Now it really isn't.


=========================

Before we had a cautious approach that tied to cannith crafting and even augments. There were some system-level constraints - physics of ML - and adjustments made around those. There was at least the appearance of a steady hand ensuring we didn't cram +6 stat on really low augments, etc. at early levels, that loot (crafting, augments, named items, loot gen) were gated based on some internal logic - resistance 5 not before X level, attack bonus boosts need to be adjusted, etc.

And all that went out the window. The kinda informal rules they'd stuck to and we'd accepted are just drastically different. They aren't being violated by one or two items (which would make those items unique and desirable for some), but basically all over the place. This isn't power-creep of loot at the end game, this is essentially shifting the ML down of a bunch of abilities by a large degree.

[voodoogroves]

Another thought.

How special is a Minos if Heavy Fort + colorless slot drops on random gear at the same or lower level? If it did, why bother having it, except for the cool look (which is totally overwritten by the plethora of cosmetics-that-aren't-cosmetcs-as-they-provide-real-benefit)? There isn't one on the AH on Gland right now - but since 100% fort can drop on a ML9 item, ML7 master that would mean a colorless slot on any of those would add 2 levels. So, random loot, better than Minos and available in about any slot you want.

And by having I mean "existing" in the game, taking time to code, space in the loot tables, etc.

[voodoogroves]

And another, because hump-day.

When content was added pre-U19, you could have some sort of assurance that while there may be some nifty new things, all of the loot wouldn't be statistically better. We didn't actually need +8 stats at ML8, or +4 spell focus ... or deadly 6 at ML 11, or resist 6 mid-heroic. We got an update with tons of stuff we don't need.

So, maybe it was Ungood that said it.

We don't need a BUFF to all named loot. Yes, current raids need a reason to run them (drop CoV, maybe some update to their loot) - but mostly the game could benefit from a judicious removal of much of the U19/20 loot and scaling it back to be on the same relative level as the rest of the content. We need the random loot to be nerfed back out of crazytown.

I just worry that the cat/bag, horse/barn, whatever moment may be passed.

[Ayseifn]

The game should not reward 'effort' but should reward achievement.

Running Waterworks back to back 30 times on a level 27 character is effort. It is rightly completely ignored by all of the game's reward systems. You will get no XP, no relevant loot to your character - all you will get is the odd consumable. On the flip side, running EE Fall of Truth is a serious achievement for most guilds, and running EH Fall of Truth is an achievement for most PUGs. Both of those should be rewarded, despite being considerably less 'effot' than grinding through Waterworks dozens of time.

Now let's consider Wisdom items. You could run the absolutely trivial EN or EH VON6 chasing a Wisdom item, and get (after too many runs) a +7 Wisdom helm, the Epic Helm of the Mroranon. Or, you could run something that is much more of an achievement - Heroic Elite Bastion of Power or End of the Road - and possibly loot a random lootgen +7 Wis item there.

I feel the person running Elite Bastion on their level 21 character is much more deserving of recognition for their achievement than a person running VON6, especially on EN (which pretty much any twelve people can do even if six of them AFK the whole raid and one falls off the side because they have been drinking too much). Yet the latter has 'raid loot'.

Where raids are difficult enough to remain engaging to high level players, they should have compelling loot. But this exact same statement should apply to six-person content too. Let's kill off the WOW idea of 'raiding is both the hardest and most rewarding PVE content', and go to something more sensible - the hardest PVE content has the best rewards, and sometimes that will be raids, other times it will be 6-player content.


Bind status should also be uncoupled from raid/6-person status and instead the question should be asked "Is this item meant to be exclusive?". If yes - the item should be BtAoA or more restrictive. If no, it should be BtAoE or BtCoE so that the economy doesn't get flooded with it.

In your scenario people are better off ransacking VoN 5 instead of completing if all they want is a +7 wisdom item and that's pretty terrible design. And Elite Bastion is way easier to do compared to VoN 5/6, I have epic loot and destinies that make Bastion cake walk at 21 but trying to get a couple of people to do a VoN sometimes is impossible. Having raids drop better loot is fine, there needs to be some incentive to getting a decent sized group of people together or no one will run it.

[Ungood]

While I agree with you, some re-design of the current loot system is warranted, your list is very illustrative. If you were lucky enough to have any or few of the items on the list above - you were powerful and golden for a long time. But casual players, or perhaps unlucky players, rarely pull those items; in almost 8 years now, I have never pulled a Royal Guard Mask, Beholder Optic Nerves, Torc, or Ring of the Ancestors. Sure, some items like Minos, result from a 'light' grind. I haven't really 'ground' out Shroud since the blade debacle - and that raid, along with all others, is now truly a grind for new players without greensteel.

Part of loot revamp, as I recall, was to make random loot relevant again and to make it so that players didn't feel the 'need' to grind these items and players aren't expected to all have the same equipment. At the same time, if you did get a named item, it would stand out as rare and special. I still think having the items on your list is great - if you are lucky enough to get them. But in no way should loot, like that on your list, be what are wearing above 20 except in an emergency nor should it be a 'requirement' below 20 - giving players moar lootzy options is better imo. Having +20 level loot with some features of named loot is awesome - even spreading out features below 20 is awesome, not everyone should be required to wear Minos; that was bad design.

What I believe I read in this thread is that players who do ground 'named' items want them to be stepped up so that random stuff with similar features is still not as good - at that level range. I can be on board with that - "non-ground out" named loot should be special and stand out. Ground out loot, like Minos, does not need to be as special - it IS the reward to get loot with specific attributes you want without having to get lucky with random loot or pulling a named item.

Well, this really illustrates the main issue here in two ways.

First is the issue of the staying power: These named/raid items are rare, some of them take hundreds of runs of the same raid/quest to get, some of them even might even take a player several Years and perhaps many TR's to finally get.

But a player would only go after then because they had staying power, because they could call that quest done, and know they would not ever need to replace it, not in a few levels, not in their life time, that was what made it worth grinding for to start with.

Now as a point of reference, I own all the items on that list short of the seven finger gloves which I am still looking for, hence why they were off the top of my head.

I did not go after them believing that I would ever replace them, I wanted them because I would never replace them. if I felt that I would replace them in a few levels, I would have tossed them aside like junk, because by the time I could get them, I would have out grown them. There is no place for loot like that hidden behind 1% drop rates in raids that have 3 day timers, and need to be run many times to get what you want, with reward lists every 20 times. That's an insult to players to do that to them.

Secondly: If you want a system where Loot-gen replaces named/raid loot in a few levels, then the system needs to make it so that the drop rates of named/raid loot reflect how worthless they are, IE: Every raid drops a ton of loot, with around a 50% drop rate, no timers, and the like.

Even then, because it is a raid, still, players won't do it, no staying power in the item removes any incentive to go after it.

Case in point: On my monk life, when I made 20th, I figured I would humor myself and epic my Jizd-tet'ka bracers. Ok, well I ran a few of the Sentinels of Stormreach quests, realized this was going to take a long time and thus not worth the grind at all, so, as opposed to doing that, I got a sun-soul set with comms I had from my last TR and tossed the bracers in the trash, because that is exactly what they had become.

Now, I would say the bracers are not in fact Trash, but they become Trash when they are no longer worth the grind. IE: If I can get better or equal for less effort, no matter how good it may have been at one time, it's junk because it's simply not worth going after.

I mean sure, you might have a few people who who would want it, just to have it, like I had Sever, because I enjoy collecting dwarf axes, Sever has to date, never seen combat, it was not worth it to go after it when it first came, it's not worth it, and I only got it because of the novelty. But that is never a motive to bet on when you expect players to buy packs, run content, or keep coming back to play. Novelty wears off quickly.

Personally, revamping the loot dynamic after 6 years of it working in one direction was a horrible decision to make.

If you want to have to get new gear every 3 - 4 levels, there is no shortage of MMO's that will provide that to you, one of the things I loved about DDO was the staying power of named loot, was the fact that it was in fact worth it to go after these items, that my time was not in vain or wasted.

As it stands now.. it was wasted. And that sets a bad mood and feeling with players like me.

[FynWarFyn]

Well, it seems you will have your hands full, even just reading over all these replies. It looks like you will have to balance the rewards for people who strive for Named and Raid loot versus the casual odd hours players who can do with only lootgen and happy about it. But always remember that this is DDO, not a Diablo3 random loot kind of game. It is always better when even the random lootgen made sense where it drops, even a dragon will not keep a dragonbane weapon layng around (either it will destroy it or drop it in a volcano like the One Ring) unless it is a tropy but then it is a Named item not random anymore. Even lorewise random loot is better than completely random loot, it would make people run some quests just for the random loot.

While you are at it, please also review some items or enchants that don't make any sense, like the trinket Kaelth's Touch, it is describe as a ward vs evil but has DR5/evil, which means that evil attack will bypass its DR like a hot knife on butter, so what part of the ward vs evil is supposed to work? Shouldn't it be DR5/good or something similar. There are a few odd items like that, mostly named items I think, can't remember them from the top of my head (unless they got updated but nobody knows about the updates?).

Another thought, yeah more work for you or at least more food for thoughts, maybe introduce a new breed of single unique items with nice enchants for their ML, only one of a kind per server. They can be acquired by only 1 player character at a time on any single server, and will be thrown back into the loot table on several conditions like 3-5 deaths? not logged in for 2 weeks? character is over 5 lvl of ML? timer of 2-6 months max? and they will remember their last 2-3 owners in their descriptions as is "Assisted Mr.X in the defeat of Velah."

[Hafeal]

[named/raid loot]I did not go after them believing that I would ever replace them, I wanted them because I would never replace them. if I felt that I would replace them in a few levels, I would have tossed them aside like junk, because by the time I could get them, I would have out grown them. There is no place for loot like that hidden behind 1% drop rates in raids that have 3 day timers, and need to be run many times to get what you want, with reward lists every 20 times. That's an insult to players to do that to them.

I understand this sentiment and I agree with the drop rate issue. I place this in the context of level caps though - as the game has grown and we had caps (10, 12, 14, 16 etc), loot had staying power because of caps. As the levels have grown though, I never had the expectation that great level 12 gear should be a game lifetime achievement - especially past level 20.

I think the problem is that for those who spent years grinding the gear and now being able to fly through levels in a few weeks, it makes the equipment you worked so hard to obtain seem less valuable.

I am going to focus my inner Chai here a bit and just say we have all known DDO turned Monty Haul many years ago. If anyone really believed their hard earned loot was so unique or worth grinding, I feel they were not seeing what Turbine had done with the direction for loot. To me, the game is completely doable without the named gear. The named gear makes the game easier and that is the reward for those who grind it out. You can be my hero while I pike to grind my xp for my next life.

Secondly: If you want a system where Loot-gen replaces named/raid loot in a few levels, then the system needs to make it so that the drop rates of named/raid loot reflect how worthless they are, IE: Every raid drops a ton of loot, with around a 50% drop rate, no timers, and the like.

I agree loot rate drops for 'rare' stuff, especially heroic level items, should have a substantially increased drop rate. I think it would revive some interest in raids. I am not feeling that the devs want to give much love to Heroic level raids atm though; perhaps it is game performance issues, I don't know.

[Singular]

Loot Gen should scale around a: 1 - 8

Named Items Should fall around: 4 - 8


Raid Gear Should fall around a 5 - 9:

On average the gear from a raid should fall around a 6-7, better then all the the top end loot gen, better then most of the named, worth going after, but no super powerfully so.

So I guess now the question is, what is a - 10?

a 10 should it's own monster. When I started to play, in 2009, the 10, was the "epic" items, these were augmented named items that brought them to the next level.

I generally agree with this, but would also like an increasingly less likely chance to have random loot be awesome. That will keep me dutifully looking forward to trash chests. So I'd modify your numbers above to allow random loot to reach or very nearly reach raid gear, but with an exceptionally minute chance of ever seeing that drop.

Enjoy the break from khopeshes. They dominated TWF for far too long.

Just because they dominated for a while is not reason to have so few named ones. The nerfing of twf has made the ESOS the only best in slot sword. That's too boring. We need variety. I'm not arguing to make khopesh the only weapon for dps again, I just want to see more viable choices than "I'm either going khopesh weapon of the blademaster or giving up on khopesh when I get my two ballizarde."