An introduction: you can call me Doctor Loot

[dunklezhan]

I like to compare similar items of similar level. In my world I would expect a L27 random to be more powerful than a L20 named. You ask a very valid question. Are people comparing apples to oranges?

I see less variety in loot drops, but have not encountered random loot being more powerful than named per se. However, I've noticed there are some raid items that could use a refresh to compete with the deadly/seeker randoms. And in general. Perhaps I see it as the raid loot has not kept up with the times.

I would not necessarily expect the Elite version of that same L20 item (so L22 presumably) to be much, if any, worse than that same L27 item however, and I would certainly expect that if that L20 item came from a raid it should also be a lot better. Elite and Raids are clearly a lot tougher and usually you need multiple runs to get that one thing, sometimes a lot more than 'multiple' if you see what I mean, if there are scrolls and such involved. Randoms are just that - random. They could drop in a L28 casual where you're running on autopilot at cap, very little effort involved. Named, in my view, should remain viable gear for a lot longer when compared against random loot. I say this as someone who does not have any truly hard/grind to get named items except, sigh, the Bloodstone. The point being that named loot getting significantly better does nothing but put me at further disadvantage, except maybe it would give me another few levels use use out of the very few raid items I have. And I would still be in favour because it's entirely fair.

[Thumbed_Servant]

Regarding random loot that is more powerful than named / raid items: what are the level ranges you guys are seeing this on? There's a bit of a difference between a level 27 random sword vs a level 21 named one... and when those items when found in the same level range content.

Not current, but I remember this random-overpowering-named started easily with MotU.

The Epic Ornamented Dagger got put by the wayside by most anyone that had farmed Crystal Cove to get one. Simple random generated loot would have better Potency on it than the Ornamented Dagger, and while the dagger has other enchantments on it, the Potency is the core enchantment that makes it worthwhile.

[rakhtal]

Bracers - Random loot is the ONLY place to get healing amp in this slot.

What about Levik bracers?

[Ungood]

Regarding random loot that is more powerful than named / raid items: what are the level ranges you guys are seeing this on? There's a bit of a difference between a level 27 random sword vs a level 21 named one... and when those items when found in the same level range content.

Just to give a small example of the larger problem.

Minos Legends - Heavy Fort, Colorless Slot, ML11
Loot-Gen - Heavy Fort - ML 9, + Colorless Slot +2 ML, = ML 11

Ok, now, pause and ponder this, what was once the best helm in the game can be equaled by Loot-gen.

Now if you pull a major luck roll and get Masterful Caftsman, or Cursed, your Heavy Fort + Colorless Slot is ML 10 and the only thing making it ML11 is the Vitality Shard. That means Loot-Gen coming out today, better then what was once one of the most recommended and sought after helms in the game, and I kid you not when I say people would buy passes and the pack itself, just for that helm.

One of the best head slots, Wrecked by the New Loot Gen system.

If I really wanted to kill the whole thing, I could just get a Dual Slot loot-gen item (level does not matter for a helm, level 1 or 28 is irrelevant), Disjunct it in the Cannith Crafting hall, and add heavy Fort gem (ML 8) and Vitality +20 (ML 11) and I can have up to 2 more abilities to the helm, beyond what the Minos gave, or one really good one, like say... +5 resist or Greater False Life (+30 HP), thus giving me a far superior helm then one of the best known named helms in the game.

This is why the whole "new Loot-gen" system was very bad for the game as a whole, it destroyed many years of what was an established loot principal, it invalidated soo much soo quickly, it really, warped the game, and to be honest, I would not try to fix the new loot gen, I would re-set the system back to what it was right at the turn of MotuD, and build from there.

[Kadriel]

Take a look at lordmarch and those items. They're special. They're unique.

This sums it up for me. It is not only about power, but about uniqueness. Most of the current named loot have random-gen equivalent... Worse - in a min max game, it is much easier to find a "pure" something random gen with what you want then that piece of named (sometimes raid) loot with that.

As stated by many: if you want deadly of acuraccy why would you go with a EE dreamvisor if you can find better random-gen at the same level, or the same benefict at a much lower level. You loose the "extras" but again, this is a min max game.

This makes 90-95% of the named/raid loot replaceable or vendor trash. See the "revamp" to old named loot: adding slots that can only provide bonus about half of the top tier ones of the same level didn't help them AT ALL IMO.

Look at things you can't get anywhere else or at very least one of the bonus should be at least +2 (price mod) higher than random loot at that level. I'd much rather the former myself

[Kadriel]

This is why the whole "new Loot-gen" system was very bad for the game as a whole, it destroyed many years of what was an established loot principal, it invalidated soo much soo quickly, it really, warped the game, and to be honest, I would not try to fix the new loot gen, I would re-set the system back to what it was right at the turn of MotuD, and build from there.

Also this^

[FoggyKnight]

I would love to see Druids be able to wear Hide armor. I forget why it was not put in, but they have medium armor proficiency and can't wear most medium armor in game due to it being 99% metal and therefore against their oaths. Light armor does not cut it when trying to aim for not getting hit. I don't want to have to splash monk to gain protection.

[Golddragon87]

Regarding random loot that is more powerful than named / raid items: what are the level ranges you guys are seeing this on? There's a bit of a difference between a level 27 random sword vs a level 21 named one... and when those items when found in the same level range content.

Weapons and to a lesser degree armor are what people walk around in and show off to their fellow players. People do not want to be seen holding a randomly generated weapon, it looks bad. Often times if I see a weapon that possesses one of the 3 or 4 base weapon skins for random items I assume it it is a newer player that has just not farmed out something better yet. A named item is a trophy of sorts that shows to others your accomplishment of acquiring such a "rare" item. Admittedly the logic is extremely flawed but many players still hold to it. If it is not named they do not want to be using it because random gen is "noobish". This is pretty universal in every MMO. People want their "1337 W4@P0N5" to be unique and special. So best in slot always has to be some kind of unique named or crafted (shroud style) weapon. Because of this mind set you will see many people using named weapons long after Random Gen starts dropping superior versions.

Best recommendation I have is make a lot of named items with many unique enhancements (Shroud crafting anyone?). If their is no "Obvious best in slot" item and every quest drops named items that each have their own merits then more of a variety of quests will be run to acquire them. It is the best way as a developer to use player psychology against them and encourage a variety of quests to remain desirable even in end game content.

[MeliCat]

Regarding random loot that is more powerful than named / raid items: what are the level ranges you guys are seeing this on? There's a bit of a difference between a level 27 random sword vs a level 21 named one... and when those items when found in the same level range content.

I was somewhat horrified to see level 15 gloves with +8 con with them. After all efforts we went to get just +7 stat items from level 20 raid loot items and epic items. And random loot gen +2/3/4/5 for DCs for spell schools? For casters a couple of fairly ordinary two handers are now better than a level 25 raid fully upgraded item? Deadly is just an amazing thing to just casually toss in as random items. It is that alone that makes me wonder if whoever made that decision plays regularly and possibly never raids.

I guess you're now catering to the non raiding crowd now? I spend maybe less than 5% of my time raiding and I'm in one of the most serious raiding guilds on the server. But someone out there came out with "Oh less than 5% of players raid" implying that no efforts or thought to what raiding contributes should be given any weight. But I do wonder where that comment came from. Because after all this uber loot... and making our characters uber... there is *no where to try them out*.... cos... there is *no real end game*....

[Ungood]

I was somewhat horrified to see level 15 gloves with +8 con with them. After all efforts we went to get just +7 stat items from level 20 raid loot items and epic items. And random loot gen +2/3/4/5 for DCs for spell schools? For casters a couple of fairly ordinary two handers are now better than a level 25 raid fully upgraded item? Deadly is just an amazing thing to just casually toss in as random items. It is that alone that makes me wonder if whoever made that decision plays regularly and possibly never raids.

That is pretty much the largest failing of the Loot-Gen system, is that it was designed by someone that had played the game, and in that regard, I really expected them to know better then to do what they did.

[sirgog]

What about Levik bracers?

I stand corrected, although Levik's are definitely weaker than the MOTU bracer possibilities (whichever you need of 10, 20 or 30%, with Heal 13/15 or Superior Parrying/Parrying 8 or some other effect that fits your character better; possibly with one or two augments depending upon the suffix).

[sirgog]

Also for the record. I do not mind some named items being obsoleted by lootgen (such as the Dream Visor); this has always happened from time to time in DDO, with the Invaders Holy/Cold Iron weapon coming to mind. It was one of the best named weapons in the game when heroic Lailat was endgame but a few updates later, Transmuting weapons were introduced and they just outclassed the old weapon. (Transmuting was nerfed to Metalline later; Transmuting broke all DR when it was introduced).

Shadowfail just went too far with this approach because of your desire to introduce +11 stat items and all the other super-high numbers on new gear.

[bsquishwizzy]

Regarding named items:

While we're at it, restore the old Terror Greatsword to its original prominence. A weapon that both aggros AND fears? Idiotic.

They nerfed the PK on it, and I have no idea why. It was a GREAT pre-epic trash-beater that had a specific niche. Then they came out with a similar random lootgen weapon, and made having Terror pointless.

It is a named weapon. It should have some prominence. It should be more powerful than a random loot item. Give it a set of teeth again, and people will run that set of quests to get it, and unsurpress it.

The decision to nerf that weapon was almost criminal...

[Mryal]

Happy Friday, everyone. I’d like to introduce myself as a bit of a new dev face on the forums. First, it’s about time I quit lurking, and second, I’m putting on an additional hat on the DDO team. What hat is that? In a word: loot. I’m here to listen to you and to keep my eyes on the big picture. Yes, that includes avoiding Ghostbane-situations.

So in the name of listening rather than blathering on and on, I’d like to ask you all a few questions as a sort of pulse-check on the state of loot. Go on and fill up the thread – I’ll check back in after the weekend (and a bit today, as schedule permits), with head-nods, follow-up questions, and answers where necessary.

- Aside from the diversity issue, what are the biggest problems with random loot, today?
- What weapon and equipment types do you feel are underserved in named and in random loot?
- I’d love to hear about some of the non-named loot your character’s are currently wearing.

(In the future, I’m planning some similar question sessions about named loot and named loot systems, BTW.)

Welcome sir.
My theory about random loot.And about loot in general.Loot in DDO does not follow the natural level your character really has in any way, see, in DDO, our 'fake' level range is currently 1-28.That leaves very little room for creativity in any way, and forces you guys to keep releasing more and more powerfull items so they seem appealing, and quickly outdating what was done before (Deadly goggles annyone?).

The thing is, your true level in DDO is Current level + Number of heroic lives * 20.
What does this means? we should have level 40 gear? no, absolutly not.We can, however, create things like :
<DNT TBD Sorc life item loot> : this gives you +10 stacking elemental spellpower for each sorcerer past life you have.

OR

<DNT TBD Monk life item loot> : this gives you +1% stacking dodge and max dodge bonus for each monk past life you have.

And so on...Make these to be added in addition to item sufix/affix rarely.Just a thought.Im sure theres a lot more to think on this subject

[HatsuharuZ]

I was somewhat horrified to see level 15 gloves with +8 con with them. After all efforts we went to get just +7 stat items from level 20 raid loot items and epic items. And random loot gen +2/3/4/5 for DCs for spell schools? For casters a couple of fairly ordinary two handers are now better than a level 25 raid fully upgraded item? Deadly is just an amazing thing to just casually toss in as random items. It is that alone that makes me wonder if whoever made that decision plays regularly and possibly never raids.

Well said!

[Zeez]

Dear Santa, all I want for Christmas is an Epic ring of spell storing or at least some of the rare Seal/Shards to actually show up in chests.

The Pale Green Ioun Stone is stupidly rare. 7 Ransacks total and not 1 drop. Would like a 20th reward option on quests for stupidly rare items like this.

Id love some sort of trade in system where I can trade 10 of the crappy horrid seals/shards from a pack for the 1-2 semi decent ones.

Whatever happened to soul-stealing, exceptional and insightful items, Convalescence, Various Spell power on helms and rings?

Most of all I'd like a working game. One with less bugs, crashes, memory leaks and outages for preventive and corrective "Maintenance."

[oradafu]

Regarding random loot that is more powerful than named / raid items: what are the level ranges you guys are seeing this on? There's a bit of a difference between a level 27 random sword vs a level 21 named one... and when those items when found in the same level range content.

Not sure about all the raid loot, but the one that I know for sure is that Reaver's Fate Raid weapons are weaker than at level (and lower) Paragon weapons. I haven't bothered to check the weapons from other raids, but I'm sure the results are the same for all of them, except for Shroud. Here's two random examples compared to things I found in the auction house:

* A fully upgraded Dreamspitter is a level 14 +5 Quarterstaff with a base damage rating of 8.93; a +2 Impact II Quarterstaff of Ribcracker II is a level 12 +2 Quarterstaff with a Base damage of 9.90.
* Cloudburst is a level 14 +5 Greatsword with a base damage rating of 13.20; a +2 Frost Greatsword of Destruction is a level 12 +2 Greatsword with a base damage of 13.75.

You'll be able to compare other random weapons with raid weapons better than I, but I'm sure you'll see the same results: seemingly weaker randomly generated weapons are doing more damage than raid weapons. The raid weapons should be doing more damage and they should be comparable to weapons that are at least 4 levels higher.

[Livmo]

Here are some xbows that I have in my golf bag. 2 are pre-update and one is post update. I'm level 25 and I like all these xbows. I have many more. These were easy examples. Can anyone tell which one is post update?

[Sethvir]

A list of effects, where random lootgen is actually better than named gear, raid gear, set-bonus-gear

- natural armor
- deadly
- accuracy
- speed
- protection
- resistance
- false life


all the caster related stuff i cant cover, cos i only did a few melee lifes after my long hiatus, so im not in the know about those.



- natural armor
# was only available on raidgear (raidgear cos of shards onyl available in raid adq - seal of th earth ml11 +3 natural armor, epic ring ml20 +6 natural armor)
# now ml9 +5 on random available
# highest named is still epic seal of earth with a mere +6, random at that level can provide +7 and if there were any pure ml20 random gen items availabel it would go even up to +9
# to boot it, +5 natural armor was only available as lvl 12 ranger (spell) or ranger active past life feat at char level 12

- deadly
# was not available as such. several item - SETS(!) did sport some damage boosts which all were at least ml18 or ml20 on epic named
# now at lvl 7 we have deadly 4 available, which is the same amount we formerly had at ml18/20
# see also dreamvisor

- accuracy
# was lowest on ml 9 bloodstone available (+6), the epic version (raidgear cos of shards onyl available in raid) sported a whooping +8
# cos of seeker random lootgen effect not being able to be created as single effect on anything beyond ml13 items, it actually doesnt surpass named items / raidgear
# the problem here is, the value of the effect is still lower, so u get the same effect as on the raidgear PLUS other desired effects like deadly/speed.
those extra effects value is also very low so the at the same ml, u get basically 2(!!!) desired effects while the raidgear has only 1

- speed
# basically the same as seeker, and even though the attack speed boost is not as big as on the named items, its as almost as good as the named one and ppl chuck
haste pots like candy anyway, its mostly used cos of teh runspeed and the extra attackspeed in case u forget to use a haste pot
# jorg collar ml13 Melee Alacrity 11%, Striding +25%, Colorless Augment Slot, random lotgen ml13 speed 5 colorless slot (attackspeed 5%, move speed 25%)

- protection
# ioun stone ml5, BUT to make use of it at lvl 5 u had to upgrade it AND TR (not counting stability), icy rainment ml14 +4
# with the devalueing of ioun stones (sure pick on 3rd completion of even casual runs of dd) and the severe lowering of the value in crafting, even the ioun stone
is no longer worth much anymore (crafting ml is 9, with masterfull craftmasnship ml7)
# now the ml24 white flawless dragonscale variants sport a +7 value (+8 on a doble upgraded version = 13 comms of heroism needed ...),
+6 (2 better than rainment) are already available as random lootgen as low as ml17 and even with a augment slot (+7 prot +7 con ml 22 ....)
# random lootgen at ml24 can go to +8 and again, with an additional effect to top it (which is still desireable)
# kundarak wardin bracers ml9 +3, epic ml20 +5

- resistance
# best available on raidgear or any named/set-crafted (dragontouched) is +5 ml20 or ml16
# random lootgen provides +6 at ml11(!!!), even if u cant fit in a high deadly value item, a deadly 2 of resistance 6 item is only ml15,
get a resitance +6 pure item with a slot and ur at ml13 and its much better than anything else at ml16/20

- false life
# mainly minos legends (ml11) and tod necklaces/belts (ml18), cos these items have a very good second effect or even a set effect on top
# now random gen stuff ml11 +25 false life with a yellow slot, any disjuncted ml5 item with green slot and colorless/yellow outshines the minos/sets (crafting)
# any ml11 false life +20 with a green slot is as good as minos

- dodge
# the most sought after item, the chattering ring ml9, got a big nerf wuth the changes to dodge, but even then it was STILL a sought after item.
and not cos of that extra spot on it, and definately not cos of the malus to move silently
# now u get +6% dodge at ml 9 with a curse (minus 1 on a stat)
# if dodge would be able to be the single effect on items past ml1, u basically would get dodge 8% at ml15 (icy rainment 8% ml14)

- magi ( bonus to sp)
# named items were the pearl of power I-X, power X being same as magi and ml9 ( they were realy realy valuable)
# random lootrgen now ml5 magi with a curse



final comment:
i already hear the BUT's, that many of the effects i mentioned on named/raid-gear have also additional effects on those items, contrary to random lootgen that is pure. AND i think thats the biggest problem turbine seems not to understand. Some ppl already mentioned it, ppl build mainly to be strong at a certain point. In regards to that, a pure random gen item with lower/same ml than named/raid-gear that has some extra that doesnt count for that purpose, is simply better.
A monk rather has +8 con +8 resist cloak than envenomed cloak with 7 con and 5 resists, cos the poison guard on that cloak is just fluff and doesnt serve him any purpose. An even the extra slot might often enuf not be good enuf to make the decision for the envenemed cloak ( beside the hassle to get that thing).

[Livmo]

I was questing tonight and for melee I went out with the Nightmare. It's still my favorite although it barely neg. levels now. I pulled the other 2 items tonight from Schinn. Unlike like my earlier xbow post, which was all random loot, this post shows a named epic and 2 random loots of roughly similar levels.