Rebalancing armor

[Rush007]

When PRR was first introduced it gave heavy and medium armor a small advantage for its use, you had more PRR than the other armors. Now with the dodge changes and new enhancements to gain prr the pendulum has swung back in the other direction. There is no reason what so ever to wear medium or heavy armor. The gain in PRR does not balance with the straight miss chance a dodge 10% item gives.

First we have to look at robe using characters and see what kind of damage reduction and miss chance they can achieve.

Robes bab20:
Dodge 25%, Blur 20-50%, Incorp 10-35%, AC small percentage but in favor of robes here with wisdom to AC and no cap in dexterity
PRR = 0
PRR sources for robes: Epic damage reduction 10, Eldtrich Knight 10, Mountain stance 15, Blue socket 16, Shinato 15, Epic Destiny Grandmaster of Flowers 15

Heavy armor bab20:
Dodge 1-5%, Blur 20%, Incorp 10%, AC small percentage
PRR = 26 or 15% about

100 Attacks, 200 damage attack at base #'s not counting the differences in blur or incorp and considering AC to be about equal to negligible.

Robes:
55 miss
35 hits for 200 = 7000 dmg

Heavy armor at 5% dodge
35 miss
65 hit for 200 = 13000 - 15% (1950) = 11050 dmg

Real simple math here and it only gets worse as the robe users adds other sources of concealment or incrop and PRR. Adding massive amounts of PRR to actual armors could help but the what would the amount be just for the baseline? 40% reduction which is 80 PRR!! away from the original 26 put the baseline at 7800 damage. This is how drastically big the dodge advantage can be over armors.

So how to fix?

Option 1
Make each armor type have in the hit formula give a guaranteed % of glancing blows. This is like AC in a way but it would be unmitigatable. So light armor 5%, medium armor 10% and heavy armor 20%. Have shields give more to this number and maybe increase how much they reduce glancing blow damage by 10% small, 20% large, 50% tower. If your wearing armor you should take blows better and PRR is not going to cut it because robe users have access to enough prr as is and with diminishing returns makes it so you cannot catch up to the same mitigation.

So example -

20% blur, 10% incorp, 5% dodge and 20% glancing blows from heavy armor, 100 swings at 200 damage:

35 misses
20 x 200 x 20% glancing blows from armor = 800
45 x 200 x 15%(1350) full hits = 7650
8450 total damage a bit better but still not at the same level as no armor

Option 2, change the PRR scale to favor more past a certain point, this would only work for shield users who can reach higher PRR, heavy armor only has a 26-30 prr advantage over robes, non monk which they can match
Option 3, make enhancements that increase the dodge cap of heavy armors, not this +3 to max dodge that is way to small should be 10 to adjust to the new system. This is an easy fix and maybe the combination of the glancing blows and higher dodge it will put heavy armors back where they should be, in the front lines taking hits.

Robes should be quick and get hit less, heavy armor should get hit more but for much less making it a desirable target to heal as the damage is not as spikey yet competitive with the mitigation. PRR doesn't solve this. AC doesn't solve this.

[Teh_Troll]

Didn't even read your post . . . but all I have to say is with the nonsense Earth-Stance PRR inflation the PRR of all armors needs to be double what it is now.

[Rush007]

It needs to be more than double if you read the post.

[droid327]

I think the problem is that PRR has become largely dissociated from the actual armor you're wearing. Its possible to get really high PRR while still in robes, meaning you get the full benefit of Dodge, plus almost all the benefit of PRR.

While the "guaranteed glancing blow" idea is one way to go at it, I think a simpler way would be to just change the PRR modifier of armor from a flat rate to a multiplier. So light armor gives you a 25% bonus on top of whatever your PRR normally is, medium gives 50%, heavy gives 100%. And shields might give another additive 10/25/50% for Light/Heavy/Tower. That way you might actually be able to get your PRR contribution from armor up to where its negating 20% of your incoming physical DPS, the way Dodge does for non-armor classes....if the armor bonus alone takes you from 40% reduction to 50% reduction, that's comparable to going from 5% to 25% Dodge.

[Raoull]

Agreed. I built my divine to take a beating and a half (heavy armor, shield mastery, often twist in Sentinal shield mastery) and it just doesn't really help half as much as I was hoping.

I was looking at what armor would be best for him, and medium and light armors are often even worse due to their dodge cap being set too low. A handful with abilities to raise their dodge cap look OK, but most of them are pretty horrible. I'm contemplating going full pajamas on him and aiming for dodge instead.

I think like some other things, much of this problem is the uselessness of AC. If they reduced the tohits of mobs so that AC meant more in EEs, the AC bonus of armor, things might (might!) be more balanced.

[Rush007]

I think the problem is that PRR has become largely dissociated from the actual armor you're wearing. Its possible to get really high PRR while still in robes, meaning you get the full benefit of Dodge, plus almost all the benefit of PRR.

While the "guaranteed glancing blow" idea is one way to go at it, I think a simpler way would be to just change the PRR modifier of armor from a flat rate to a multiplier. So light armor gives you a 25% bonus on top of whatever your PRR normally is, medium gives 50%, heavy gives 100%. And shields might give another additive 10/25/50% for Light/Heavy/Tower. That way you might actually be able to get your PRR contribution from armor up to where its negating 20% of your incoming physical DPS, the way Dodge does for non-armor classes....if the armor bonus alone takes you from 40% reduction to 50% reduction, that's comparable to going from 5% to 25% Dodge.

Adding 100% PRR to heavy armor won't cut it. You'd be at 52 PRR just from armor and even at 100 PRR robe wearers with dodge and zero PRR or additional defensive abilities still out mitigate. Its really out of balance.

Been thinking some on this, drastically increasing AC could achieve this glancing blows idea. Problem I see is the amount of AC needed to get it to work on EE would overbalance it for EH and under. Flat rate tied to armor is the way to go.

[Rush007]

Agreed. I built my divine to take a beating and a half (heavy armor, shield mastery, often twist in Sentinal shield mastery) and it just doesn't really help half as much as I was hoping.

I was looking at what armor would be best for him, and medium and light armors are often even worse due to their dodge cap being set too low. A handful with abilities to raise their dodge cap look OK, but most of them are pretty horrible. I'm contemplating going full pajamas on him and aiming for dodge instead.

I think like some other things, much of this problem is the uselessness of AC. If they reduced the tohits of mobs so that AC meant more in EEs, the AC bonus of armor, things might (might!) be more balanced.

Making AC more worthwhile won't fix this. Which class has the easiest AC? Monks in robes, wisdom to AC, uncapped dexterity and they don't need a shield. To attain good AC in armor it requires a shield. Frontline fighters should be in the heaviest armor they can be in and have benefits over robes.

[Teh_Troll]

Making AC more worthwhile won't fix this. Which class has the easiest AC? Monks in robes, wisdom to AC, uncapped dexterity and they don't need a shield. To attain good AC in armor it requires a shield. Frontline fighters should be in the heaviest armor they can be in and have benefits over robes.

LOLz . . . it's so true. having AC worthless in EEs is the only thing preventing being a monk from being complet god-mode.

[droid327]

Adding 100% PRR to heavy armor won't cut it. You'd be at 52 PRR just from armor and even at 100 PRR robe wearers with dodge and zero PRR or additional defensive abilities still out mitigate. Its really out of balance.

I wasn't saying give a 100% bonus to heavy armor PRR. I was saying heavy armor gives a 100% bonus to ALL your sources of PRR, including itself. Enhancements, spells, gear, whatever you have - if you're in heavy armor, it counts for double.

Part of the problem I was referring to is that even robe-wearers can still get so much PRR from non-armor sources, they have practically the same PRR as a Heavy wearer, without the serious drawbacks. Giving armor/shields a multiplier would mean that armor wearers are ALWAYS going to have significantly more PRR than non-armor wearers.

[Teh_Troll]

I wasn't saying give a 100% bonus to heavy armor PRR. I was saying heavy armor gives a 100% bonus to ALL your sources of PRR, including itself. Enhancements, spells, gear, whatever you have - if you're in heavy armor, it counts for double.

I LOVE this idea . .. give armors a multiplier treatment to ALL sources of PRR.

Heavy: 100%
Medium: 75%
Light: 50%

Part of the problem I was referring to is that even robe-wearers can still get so much PRR from non-armor sources, they have practically the same PRR as a Heavy wearer, without the serious drawbacks. Giving armor/shields a multiplier would mean that armor wearers are ALWAYS going to have significantly more PRR than non-armor wearers.

Monks need to get a thorough beating with the nerf bat . . . but I could live with the above buffs instead.

[Ultramaetche1]

I LOVE this idea . .. give armors a multiplier treatment to ALL sources of PRR.

Heavy: 100%
Medium: 75%
Light: 50%





Monks need to get a thorough beating with the nerf bat . . . but I could live with the above buffs instead.

I definitely agree with the proposed ''PRR Bonus'', however due to slight OCD I would personally suggest the following:
Heavy: 100% (3/3)
Medium: 66% (~2/3)
Light: 33% (~1/3)
Robe/Cloth: 0% (0/3)

Just to achieve a linear trend amongst the 4 classes of armor currently present in the game.

[Rush007]

I wasn't saying give a 100% bonus to heavy armor PRR. I was saying heavy armor gives a 100% bonus to ALL your sources of PRR, including itself. Enhancements, spells, gear, whatever you have - if you're in heavy armor, it counts for double.

Part of the problem I was referring to is that even robe-wearers can still get so much PRR from non-armor sources, they have practically the same PRR as a Heavy wearer, without the serious drawbacks. Giving armor/shields a multiplier would mean that armor wearers are ALWAYS going to have significantly more PRR than non-armor wearers.

There isn't a lot of sources of PRR past just the armor. Wearing armor should mean you take a lot less damage and shouldn't be railroaded into using a shield to get the bonus of the armor. Eldritch wizards would benefit most from this change, they have access to 20 PRR from enchancement 10 from shield spell, 10 from undead form and have heavy armor, shields.

Your suggestion, lets say 30 prr from heavy from capped BAB, 10 epic damage reduction, 16 blue socket gem. 56 prr x 2 = 112 which was the baseline mitigation about to robe users with dodge and zero prr or extra miss chance from shadow fade or displacement. You add any of that in for the robe users and it is still not close.

So what does adding shadow fade and PRR to a monk with dodge do?

Dodge 25%, blur 20%, incorp 25%, PRR 15 mountain stance, 15 shinato, 15 grandmaster of flowers, 10 Epic Feat, 16 blue gem = 71, 32% reduction

100 attacks, 200 damage a hit
70 miss
30 hit x 200 damage = 6000 x reduction of PRR 32% (-1920) = 4080 out of 20000 possible damage

Probably close to max of what a monk to do to mitigate damage.

[Rush007]

Boss fights where they cut thru blur and incorp greatly reducing avoidance

Robe user

100 attack, 200 damage per hit
25% dodge

25 miss
75 hit x 200 x .32 reduction 70 PRR (-4800) = 10200
75 hit x 200 x .26 reduction 50 PRR (-3900) = 11100
75 hit x 200 x .17 reduction 30 PRR (-2550) = 12450
75 hit x 200 x zero reduction = 15000


Heavy at different PRR levels

5% dodge

5 miss
95 hits x 200 x .56 reduction 200 PRR (-10640) = 8340
95 hits x 200 x .50 reduction 150 PRR (-9500) = 9500
95 hits x 200 x .41 reduction 100 PRR (-7790) = 11210 - proposed level
95 hits x 200 x .17 reduction 30 PRR (3230) = 15770 - current level no shield

On the like entries 20% dodge saved 3320 damage out of 20000.

[Seikojin]

There isn't a lot of sources of PRR past just the armor. Wearing armor should mean you take a lot less damage and shouldn't be railroaded into using a shield to get the bonus of the armor. Eldritch wizards would benefit most from this change, they have access to 20 PRR from enchancement 10 from shield spell, 10 from undead form and have heavy armor, shields.

Your suggestion, lets say 30 prr from heavy from capped BAB, 10 epic damage reduction, 16 blue socket gem. 56 prr x 2 = 112 which was the baseline mitigation about to robe users with dodge and zero prr or extra miss chance from shadow fade or displacement. You add any of that in for the robe users and it is still not close.

So what does adding shadow fade and PRR to a monk with dodge do?

Dodge 25%, blur 20%, incorp 25%, PRR 15 mountain stance, 15 shinato, 15 grandmaster of flowers, 10 Epic Feat, 16 blue gem = 71, 32% reduction

100 attacks, 200 damage a hit
70 miss
30 hit x 200 damage = 6000 x reduction of PRR 32% (-1920) = 4080 out of 20000 possible damage

Probably close to max of what a monk to do to mitigate damage.

So the best lightest armor should offer slightly more than 32% reduction through prr?

I think PRR does need an overhaul. I like the percentage buff to all sources based on weight.

However, I think it should also get modified by material and enhancement. Or all those should formulate into the pre percentage boost.

[Tilomere]

For me, what seems sorta messed up is that even if you make a reflex save against the elite amounts of damage, you still die at half damage. You need evasion, which means you might as well wear robes. It is like medium and heavy armor simply don't exist, because wearing them is worse than not wearing anything at all. A cosmetic armor kit is better than flawless white dragonplate armor.

For example the wheel traps in Big Top at level 7 hit for something like 400 damage, and the mines in TOR hit for 1600 damage at level 16. A four pack of ice elementals tossing spheres at you will hit for 1200 in update 19 quests. Saving for half is pointless. You still instantly die.

The game doesn't really have reflex saves since the majority of us play on elite. It has evasion checks. If you don't have evasion, at some points you will just instantly die. This makes medium and heavy armor sortof pointless.

The PRR heavy armor provides would need to be changed to % all damage reduction for me to consider wearing it over a cosmetic armor kit.

To me robes providing superior physical defense is just icing on top.

[droid327]

For me, what seems sorta messed up is that even if you make a reflex save against the elite amounts of damage, you still die at half damage. You need evasion, which means you might as well wear robes. It is like medium and heavy armor simply don't exist, because wearing them is worse than not wearing anything at all. A cosmetic armor kit is better than flawless white dragonplate armor.

For example the wheel traps in Big Top at level 7 hit for something like 400 damage, and the mines in TOR hit for 1600 damage at level 16. A four pack of ice elementals tossing spheres at you will hit for 1200 in update 19 quests. Saving for half is pointless. You still instantly die.

The game doesn't really have reflex saves since the majority of us play on elite. It has evasion checks. If you don't have evasion, at some points you will just instantly die. This makes medium and heavy armor sortof pointless.

The PRR heavy armor provides would need to be changed to % all damage reduction for me to consider wearing it over a cosmetic armor kit.

To me robes providing superior physical defense is just icing on top.

Well according to that logic, no one should ever play any class split that didnt include Evasion. So they shouldnt even put capstones in for any class besides Ranger/Monk/Rogue. Or you're stuck using Shadowdancer or PA, when your ED choice is basically 70% of your endgame effectiveness and neither of those is a very good choice for a melee class, over LD or Fury.

There are options to mitigate elemental damage besides Evasion, although yes Evasion is a bit overemphasized by the current game design. There's that new shield blocking feat that lets you reduce it 40% or gives you a chance to avoid it entirely, something along those lines. There's new scaled-up elemental absorption and ablation mods on lootgen. There could be improvements definitely made to armor-users' ability to deal with elemental damage, but its not like Evasion is a completely binary, you-have-it-or-you-die kinda thing.

[Tilomere]

Well according to that logic, no one should ever play any class split that didnt include Evasion.

Play what you find fun. Reflex damage in Big Top at level 7 hits just as hard as an EE level 76 Stormhorns boss, and only gets worse as you level. You may not find it binary you-have-it-or-you-die, but the general community disagrees with you. Just ask them what they think of barbs.

If you are looking for a survivable character, then yes, you shouldn't play any class split that doesn't include evasion.

[Dandonk]

I'm not opposed to armor getting more PRR, but I think it should be tied to ML somehow - I find it silly and counterintuitive that wearing a ML 1 armor would give you as much protection as a ML 28 armor.