Dear Feather of Sun...

[Havok.cry]

Dear Feather,
I am supposed to hate you. I am pretty sure there is a law about it somewhere. As it stands right now, your posts in this thread are preventing that, so please go back and edit them to better facilitate community outrage. Thank You.

[QuantumFX]

He already stated why. Management.

It really isn't that hard to read between the lines. I've been doing so for months now. Also,he flatly stated such.

What he failed to address is why would they do it when other options were readily available. They only needed the new loot permutations for a handful of named items.

[Rinnaldo]

you're probably going to get fired for admitting any of that. but it's all true and it's nice to know you know.

I sincerely hope Sunbane doesn't get burnt for his amazing candor.

(Of course, then that term could become a meme too, with an all-new connotation...)

[01000010]

I sincerely hope Sunbane doesn't get burnt for his amazing candor.

(Of course, then that term could become a meme too, with an all-new connotation...)

Agreed, honesty is exactly what the game/forum community needs right now to restore some faith in turbine.

[RedOrm]

Thanks for the candid response, Feather.

If I may get a bit "meta" for the moment. And I'm not trying to single you out, please don't take this as an attack...
DDO is comprised of 2 categories of software: content and systems.

Content is simple. It's typically just fire and forget. Once it ships, it's done. Druid's Deep is done. It's off everyone's plate and it exists happily. Sagas are content that once crafted don't need additional upkeep. (The exception to this would be Abbot, which should be done but **** that thing just keeps breaking with every new line of code added to the game. )

Systems, however, need to be maintained. Monster Manual is a system that needs continued effort. Crafting is a system that needs updates with each new affix created or rebalanced. Epic Destinies are another system that need additional manpower. The loot system is another system which you address is getting attention.

The problem lies in that, historically, DDO's producers treat all Systems like Content. There needs to be a cultural shift, a paradigm shift, and a realization that each new system created requires some man-hours going forward to keep it running. Whether in the case of Monster Manual, this system just adds a bit of static overhead to quest creation ensuring that the mob's classes are registered in the daemon; or continued effort like creating a new affix needs to not only be on one item, but entered into crafting, with a recipe, and costed, balanced, and so forth... These things aren't fire and forget. Each system the team creates adds overhead that decreases the amount of new productive work the devs can do each release cycle. (For example, suppose it takes melange x amount of work to make a critter in a quest. After the Monster Manual, it takes x+20% to make a monster in a quest that's also in the Monster Manual. The amount of time he has between releases doesn't change. So he can produce 20% less critters than if he didn't have the overhead of the MM...)

When the players keep griping that we don't want another unfinished system released and then abandoned, this is what we're talking about. This is why we get all huffy about the cost of Hearts, and whether Epic Past Lives are going to be rewarding enough for the the effort to attain them, because we see that culturally, Turbine thinks these systems are just content. Ship it and forget it.

All these systems add overhead. All this overhead detracts from total work accomplished.

I'd highly recommend this book to any professional developer, but especially for the Producers of DDO...
http://www.amazon.com/The-Mythical-M...dp_ob_title_bk

Thanks for reading.

This. /Signed.

@Feather_of_Sun:
First of all: THANK YOU for your posts. We need more threads like this.
Second: Read the above quoted post. Then label it "Ghostbane For The Win", print it out, and hang it above your desk. Then copy/paste it into the internal mailing system or whatever you guys use, and make sure EVERYONE reads it.

Greetz,
Red Orm

[oradafu]

Thanks for the candid response, Feather.

If I may get a bit "meta" for the moment. And I'm not trying to single you out, please don't take this as an attack...
DDO is comprised of 2 categories of software: content and systems.

Content is simple. It's typically just fire and forget. Once it ships, it's done. Druid's Deep is done. It's off everyone's plate and it exists happily. Sagas are content that once crafted don't need additional upkeep. (The exception to this would be Abbot, which should be done but **** that thing just keeps breaking with every new line of code added to the game. )

Systems, however, need to be maintained. Monster Manual is a system that needs continued effort. Crafting is a system that needs updates with each new affix created or rebalanced. Epic Destinies are another system that need additional manpower. The loot system is another system which you address is getting attention.

The problem lies in that, historically, DDO's producers treat all Systems like Content. There needs to be a cultural shift, a paradigm shift, and a realization that each new system created requires some man-hours going forward to keep it running. Whether in the case of Monster Manual, this system just adds a bit of static overhead to quest creation ensuring that the mob's classes are registered in the daemon; or continued effort like creating a new affix needs to not only be on one item, but entered into crafting, with a recipe, and costed, balanced, and so forth... These things aren't fire and forget. Each system the team creates adds overhead that decreases the amount of new productive work the devs can do each release cycle. (For example, suppose it takes melange x amount of work to make a critter in a quest. After the Monster Manual, it takes x+20% to make a monster in a quest that's also in the Monster Manual. The amount of time he has between releases doesn't change. So he can produce 20% less critters than if he didn't have the overhead of the MM...)

When the players keep griping that we don't want another unfinished system released and then abandoned, this is what we're talking about. This is why we get all huffy about the cost of Hearts, and whether Epic Past Lives are going to be rewarding enough for the the effort to attain them, because we see that culturally, Turbine thinks these systems are just content. Ship it and forget it.

All these systems add overhead. All this overhead detracts from total work accomplished.

I'd highly recommend this book to any professional developer, but especially for the Producers of DDO...
http://www.amazon.com/The-Mythical-M...dp_ob_title_bk

Thanks for reading.

This post needs to be printed and handed out and posted at Turbine HQ.

[2pleasegimmie]

That's up to the planners and decision-makers.

Tell them to hurry it up if they still want players to be there to see the results.

[IronClan]

Yes. Management.

They sunk man hours, or developer hours, and the other associated resources into something (and those things are essentially spent money), had to re-prioritise and reallocate people and resources but couldn't bear to have that unfinished "product" sitting there and not representing any return on investment. You simply can't have that, it's anathema to the management types who have to report on where the money went and how it's now earning money.

So someone says "well let's go ahead and release what we have."


It doesn't matter what you make, whether you're a programmer, carpenter or baker, if you have the tiniest bit of pride in your work you won't want to release a product that's that incomplete.

It's usually managers and people who don't personally produce anything that make decisions like that.

As some might remember I have on a couple occasions stated my suspicion that upper managment had its hand in "ghostbaning" the loot, it just didn't fit his past MO, whether you like his loot design or not it has always had flavor and niche use that in many cases inspired a character build. I'm not a fan of the brony stuff but its not fair by any stretch to call it "generic" as the loot in the last couple updates has been.

[Recared]

Developers aren't supposed to admit to having human emotions.
We need to be uncaring, aloof bastions of mystery, holding our Vast and Mysterious plans close to our chest.

So here's another Friday Night, Still At The Office foot in mouth moment:
I've been very frustrated with the state of itemization lately.
Epic Gianthold was where I last thought we had treasure systems in a really great place. We released a massive treasure system for it, along with the revamped augment system, incorporating several elements that I think are key to encouraging enjoyment and player retention: Lots of cool treasure to find in the quests, rewards for playing on higher difficulties, items with an upgrade system, and barter vendors with rewards to save up your effort for.


Update 19 shattered that "endgame" experience. The level cap increased, yet there was almost nothing new to aspire to. We couldn't support new rewards to properly itemize character builds in the new level 25-28 range. As a result, we've moved to a point where there isn't anything in the way of continued ways to progress your character while remaining at level cap.

Epic Reincarnation in Update 20 will help with some of that, but it's not (and shouldn't) be for everyone.

This sucks. We need to fix it.


Stay tuned by mid-next week for updates.
For now, though, I'm going home. There's only so much I should poke the beehive late on a Friday night.
Have a good weekend!
-Sunbane

Exactly! Perhaps the best dev post ever: sincere, brave, insightful and promising/hopeful.

Feather, you are a 'Steve Jobs' of DDO, the game we love. I couldn't but throw in some words of encouragement. Keep on the great work!

Gyga

[Flavilandile]

The original plan for random treasure is what you see in game now, plus the following:

Items would rarely, in addition to the normal damage-dealing prefix they have, generate with a different prefix name and an additional special effect.
These would include some of the following:

• Meteoric
• Tempestous
• Infernal
• Glacial
• Erosive
• (and more!)

They're related to the damage type on the weapon. So a weapon with Flaming could sometimes instead appear as either Meteoric or Infernal.
Either a Shock or Screaming weapon could be Tempestous. There's enough rare prefixes to cover all of the prefixes that can appear on weapons.

The new versions of these effects are "procs", an effect that has a chance to occur on attack. They do things like, in the example of Meteoric, make a meteor fly in from the sky and smash into your enemies for AoE damage, dealing damage dice based on the level of your weapon, and forcing affected enemies to make a Reflex save of DC 20+Item Level or be knocked down.

There's also a lot of additional prefixes and suffixes for weapons, armor, and accessories that haven't been put into the treasure system.
Some of these include Humanoid Bane (combination of Elf, Dwarf, Human, Halfling and so on...), a new version of Bodyfeeder that deals a negative level to your target in addition to giving you temporary hit points, and adding some more staple effects like Blurry into accessories.
Many of the MotU multi-affix mutations have updated versions so they would be able to appear throughout more levels of gameplay.

And where is the rest ? when will it come back ? Convalescent ? Wounding ? Just plain items and not dual power trash ( +x to a stat , or Y% Fort ) ?

[Flavilandile]

One word - greensteel for high level.

Call it bluesteel or whatever.

Exquisite Greensteel... Comes with Epic Vale.

The worst about it, they could do it almost overnight as it's already included in game, they just need to switch it on. ( it might require some minor changes as it has been sitting idle for a long time )

[oradafu]

Exquisite Greensteel... Comes with Epic Vale.

The worst about it, they could do it almost overnight as it's already included in game, they just need to switch it on. ( it might require some minor changes as it has been sitting idle for a long time )

Did they make all of Vale Epic or just the Shroud? I thought it was just the Shroud.

Still, the way they talked about "epicfying quests" earlier this year, they said it was simplified. Of course, for years they were saying how hard it was to make a single existing quest epic...so who knows where the truth lies.

Anyway, when Epic Vale (or any other content becomes Epicfied), they better have a Monster Manual released at the same time to counter the lack of revenue coming from players that already own the pack.

I still don't understand why a Monster Manual will not be released with Update 20 since it's a f2p release. To tell the truth, Update 18 should've had a Monster Manual also since it was another f2p, but at the time the Shadowfell "expansion" was a good enough excuse for the lack of a Monster Manual... until they actually unveiled the paid portion of the Shadowfell "expansion" as the pure dog smear that it was, except in the art department.

[sephiroth1084]

In all seriousness, I'm good at putting my foot in my mouth and bluntly saying things I shouldn't.
So here's one more:
Turning Ghostbane into a meme is, in my book, the best thing to happen to DDO in awhile.

It's gotten attention to this issue.
Previously, the rest of the treasure work was a cut feature. It's been gathering dust on my hard disk.
It has not been worked on recently.

During Shadowfell Conspiracy's development cycle, high-level decisions were made about priorities, and they had decided that the enhancement system needed a lot of work poured into it. The rest of the treasure work was cut, and I was moved on to enhancements.

In all fairness, the enhancement system revamp sorely needed it.

Here's where we let you all down:
After Update 19 was out the door and things started cooling off, we failed to adequately determine what our next priorities should be, and divert the right resources back on to those issues.

Now that everything's been ghostbaned, indications are that we might be able to get a treasure system update out for the first major patch after Update 20.

I'm not sure what, if any of my original plan it will contain. That won't be my call to make.
Once I'm given something concrete to work on though, I'll let the community know as soon as possible.

Now THAT'S A ****ING RESPONSE! Thank you.

Hopefully, that work will come in the first patch after u20, and hopefully it will include re-integrating all of the loot additions from MotU, and classic loot effects like (not Ghost)Bane, along with bringing +4 tomes back.

I'd still like to see Greensteel's Elemental Energy +10, +15, +20 HP, Elemental Spell Power +50, +100 SP, and other unique bonuses like Concordant Opposition, and Exceptional [stat] Skills +2/4/6, bonuses appearing on high-level loot (named or random). It's kind of silly that these remain exclusive to ML 12 gear from a level 17 raid 5 years later, and 11 levels higher. Ideally, we'll get some MotU-style affixes that include 2 or 3 of the HP bonuses, and both of the SP bonuses as well.

How about: Prefix: Elemental Energy (+10), Improved EE (+15), Greater EE (+20), Major EE (+10, +15), Supreme EE (+10, +15, +45)
Suffix: Elemental Power (+50), Greater EP (+100), Supreme EP (+50, +100)

Maybe turn stuff like Concordant Opposition into an affix that can come bundled with one of the above and an exceptional skill bonus as well, depending on quality (the way some of the MotU bundled affixes could have better/more varying effects under the same name).

I'd also like to see Healing Amp get some bundled affixes (or have healing amp augments become available).

Speaking of augments...I think it's past time that we got upgrades to the base alignment-bypassing augments by adding some damage to them.

[sephiroth1084]

Many of the MotU multi-affix mutations have updated versions so they would be able to appear throughout more levels of gameplay.

Just going to point out that all of the MotU affixes (and most classic affixes) have completely dropped off the loot tables since u19. Your replies have been pretty good tonight, candid and informative, so this isn't meant as a knock, but the line I quoted could be read as indicating merely that the grown versions of these didn't make it in, without acknowledging that even the old stuff has gone missing.

Meteoric sounds kinda cool. I'd like to see more item effects that are flavorful and useful, without being strictly numerical upgrades. It's part of the reason I detest Deadly so much--it's boring.

Ideally, something like Meteoric would have a solid, static effect (say, Flaming Burst, and Flaming Blast) in addition to the rare AoE damage/knockdown proc, or a high enough proc rate to be really worthwhile. Lightning Strike, the old gold standard for high-damage, low-incidence procs has always felt a little too unreliable to me with such a low proc rate (around 2%)--if it triggers when your opponent has 50 HP left, it was basically useless. If you swing 50 times without a single proc, it feels like a waste.

Personally, I think On Vorpal, is probably the sweet spot for some of this stuff. That said, I also feel the game has been moving too far away from On Crit effects. I know that there was a conscious effort to even the playing field a bit in terms of weapon variety, but On Crit effects help to bring rapiers, scimitars and kukris close to khopeshes (ignoring the special, in-class bonuses some of these weapons, and others, have received recently). This is especially true of effects that trigger On Crit, but don't scale based on multiplier. That said, there should also be some On Vorpal effects that scale based on multiplier to go the other way (favoring 20/x3 and 20/x4 weapons a bit).

[Zzevel]

Finally someone who gets it. We may ask for a lot of different things and get even more (than we want?) but in the end loot means something to everyone. Eventually we may even see a drop in Ghostbane threads a more "Sunbane for Producer" threads...

[LeslieWest_GuitarGod]

This is an awesome response Feather! This is the type of communication that is needed on a more regular basis from the dev team. 5-10 minutes, once a week.

[slarden]

Developers aren't supposed to admit to having human emotions.
We need to be uncaring, aloof bastions of mystery, holding our Vast and Mysterious plans close to our chest.

So here's another Friday Night, Still At The Office foot in mouth moment:
I've been very frustrated with the state of itemization lately.
Epic Gianthold was where I last thought we had treasure systems in a really great place. We released a massive treasure system for it, along with the revamped augment system, incorporating several elements that I think are key to encouraging enjoyment and player retention: Lots of cool treasure to find in the quests, rewards for playing on higher difficulties, items with an upgrade system, and barter vendors with rewards to save up your effort for.


Update 19 shattered that "endgame" experience. The level cap increased, yet there was almost nothing new to aspire to. We couldn't support new rewards to properly itemize character builds in the new level 25-28 range. As a result, we've moved to a point where there isn't anything in the way of continued ways to progress your character while remaining at level cap.

Epic Reincarnation in Update 20 will help with some of that, but it's not (and shouldn't) be for everyone.

This sucks. We need to fix it.


Stay tuned by mid-next week for updates.
For now, though, I'm going home. There's only so much I should poke the beehive late on a Friday night.
Have a good weekend!
-Sunbane

Thank you and have a great weekend. There is always too much too do and not enough time to do it. Thanks for staying late on a Friday to interact with us and plan out the future changes.

[Neverwinterer]

I believe that in the past few months, the DDO community (and I'm including the Turbine team too) has lived moments of focused extreme anger on certain problems: Cheaters, Mabar, loot, endgame, etc,

But in my oppinion (and many will agree with me) the worst problem by far has been comunication. Moreso, the lack of comunication from Turbine.

While players where outraging in the forums and in the guild chats, almost all official responses were canned, short and/or vague. We have not experienced this level of sincerity for a while, and I must admit that it restores part of my lost faith for this game and your company.


So in resume: Feather thank you very much for the time and effort of giving a sincere and detailed answer to your players. I may dislike some of the things around, but having someone to listen to us and care helps a lot to keep people calm and happy.

[Backley]

What he failed to address is why would they do it when other options were readily available. They only needed the new loot permutations for a handful of named items.

Because they needed SOMETHING that would generate items up to ML28 for the new level cap.

Their choice at that point was:
1. Use new incomplete system (what we got.)
or
2. Use old system (and have no random gen above level 25).

What many of us think should have happened instead is:
3. Edit old system to use old effects with up to ML28.
They didn't pick that because it would require more work (which they didn't allocate, because they were focusing on Enhancements instead). We think that this editing would have been quick but we could be wrong.

[Clatterfist]

This kind of quality dev posting bypasses the 25% miss chance due to cynicism and deals an extra 2d4 points of love damage right to my gamer heart. Bravo, Feather.