Dear Feather of Sun...

[01000010]

Please take this in to consideration for the future. -- Do not destroy a working system until a replacement is ready. 3+ months of looting chests to only find the same things over and over in each chest makes me grumpy.

Exactly, this is the root of the problem. Additionally, for massive sweeping game changing stealth changes like this you may want to look for some community feedback.

Its apparent this was put in unfinished because someone commited to a timeline and was overwhelmed, i refuse to believe anyone would think cutting randgen loot down to so few suffixes and prefixes was a good idea, if im wrong this game really is doomed.

Only change a working system if a new sytem is finished and at least equal(but hopefully better) than the sytem to be replace. Yeah that means sometimes youll have to scrap an idea, youll wast some development time occasionally when you realise something wont work as well as youd hoped etc etc. But in the long run youll save a ton of dev time(trying to make some rushed system work passibly) and youll retain customers.

Somebody has to grow a pair and speak up when stuff is a bad idea, for whatever reason.

[kned225]

I wonder if the powers-that-be grasp how mellow these forums would be if the community got these kind of responses more often

[Feather_of_Sun]

****! Thank you so much! (seriously)

Something like (and your other replies to this thread) this just a couple times a week if needed would makes inroads into the general feeling of disconnect and discontent within the forum going players. We might not always agree but with a logical explanation we can understand.

Developers aren't supposed to admit to having human emotions.
We need to be uncaring, aloof bastions of mystery, holding our Vast and Mysterious plans close to our chest.

So here's another Friday Night, Still At The Office foot in mouth moment:
I've been very frustrated with the state of itemization lately.
Epic Gianthold was where I last thought we had treasure systems in a really great place. We released a massive treasure system for it, along with the revamped augment system, incorporating several elements that I think are key to encouraging enjoyment and player retention: Lots of cool treasure to find in the quests, rewards for playing on higher difficulties, items with an upgrade system, and barter vendors with rewards to save up your effort for.


Update 19 shattered that "endgame" experience. The level cap increased, yet there was almost nothing new to aspire to. We couldn't support new rewards to properly itemize character builds in the new level 25-28 range. As a result, we've moved to a point where there isn't anything in the way of continued ways to progress your character while remaining at level cap.

Epic Reincarnation in Update 20 will help with some of that, but it's not (and shouldn't) be for everyone.

This sucks. We need to fix it.


Stay tuned by mid-next week for updates.
For now, though, I'm going home. There's only so much I should poke the beehive late on a Friday night.
Have a good weekend!
-Sunbane

[QuantumFX]

Feather,

While I appreciate the hectic schedule issues you guys face, I have one question to ask:

Why would you knowingly add an incomplete loot system to a game like this?

What you guys wound up doing was the equivalent to giving us the new enhancement GUI and only having Knight of the Chalice working at launch.

It really seems like you guys could have just ran with the stacking issue fixes and left the limited loot selection to the named and wondrous craftsmanship items. Then all you would have had to do is say “Hey guys, this is the direction we’re going to start taking the loot tables to in the future. What do you think?” I realize that, to you, it looks like 2 steps forward, one step back. But you guys needed to take another 98 steps to finish this loot redesign.

Unless you are no longer “the loot guy”, Update 19 made you look *REALLY* bad.
- A loot implementation that could only generously be called “half-baked”.
- You took your loot invalidating strategies to the next level by invalidating loot that you designed. (Everything that doesn’t involve +3 Insightful stats or CitW weapons.)
- Eliminating loot effects that people actually praised you for. (ex. Erosive, Obscenity)
- You still haven’t given us random enchantments that grant bonuses to multiple skills.
- You now have to do yet another balancing pass on the named items.
- And Cannith Crafting needs a major revamp.

[Golddragon87]

Developers aren't supposed to admit to having human emotions.
We need to be uncaring, aloof bastions of mystery, holding our Vast and Mysterious plans close to our chest.

So here's another Friday Night, Still At The Office foot in mouth moment:
I've been very frustrated with the state of itemization lately.
Epic Gianthold was where I last thought we had treasure systems in a really great place. We released a massive treasure system for it, along with the revamped augment system, incorporating several elements that I think are key to encouraging enjoyment and player retention: Lots of cool treasure to find in the quests, rewards for playing on higher difficulties, items with an upgrade system, and barter vendors with rewards to save up your effort for.


Update 19 shattered that "endgame" experience. The level cap increased, yet there was almost nothing new to aspire to. We couldn't support new rewards to properly itemize character builds in the new level 25-28 range. As a result, we've moved to a point where there isn't anything in the way of continued ways to progress your character while remaining at level cap.

Epic Reincarnation in Update 20 will help with some of that, but it's not (and shouldn't) be for everyone.

This sucks. We need to fix it.


Stay tuned by mid-next week for updates.
For now, though, I'm going home. There's only so much I should poke the beehive late on a Friday night.
Have a good weekend!
-Sunbane

Sunbane needs to be a new forum title for you. It seriously sounds really, really badass. With the whole Ghostbane debacle it has history that many forumites would relate with. Thanks one final time, and have a great weekend.

[Systern]

In all seriousness, I'm good at putting my foot in my mouth and bluntly saying things I shouldn't.
So here's one more:
Turning Ghostbane into a meme is, in my book, the best thing to happen to DDO in awhile.

It's gotten attention to this issue.
Previously, the rest of the treasure work was a cut feature. It's been gathering dust on my hard disk.
It has not been worked on recently.

During Shadowfell Conspiracy's development cycle, high-level decisions were made about priorities, and they had decided that the enhancement system needed a lot of work poured into it. The rest of the treasure work was cut, and I was moved on to enhancements.

In all fairness, the enhancement system revamp sorely needed it.

Here's where we let you all down:
After Update 19 was out the door and things started cooling off, we failed to adequately determine what our next priorities should be, and divert the right resources back on to those issues.

Now that everything's been ghostbaned, indications are that we might be able to get a treasure system update out for the first major patch after Update 20.

I'm not sure what, if any of my original plan it will contain. That won't be my call to make.
Once I'm given something concrete to work on though, I'll let the community know as soon as possible.

Thanks for the candid response, Feather.

If I may get a bit "meta" for the moment. And I'm not trying to single you out, please don't take this as an attack...
DDO is comprised of 2 categories of software: content and systems.

Content is simple. It's typically just fire and forget. Once it ships, it's done. Druid's Deep is done. It's off everyone's plate and it exists happily. Sagas are content that once crafted don't need additional upkeep. (The exception to this would be Abbot, which should be done but **** that thing just keeps breaking with every new line of code added to the game. )

Systems, however, need to be maintained. Monster Manual is a system that needs continued effort. Crafting is a system that needs updates with each new affix created or rebalanced. Epic Destinies are another system that need additional manpower. The loot system is another system which you address is getting attention.

The problem lies in that, historically, DDO's producers treat all Systems like Content. There needs to be a cultural shift, a paradigm shift, and a realization that each new system created requires some man-hours going forward to keep it running. Whether in the case of Monster Manual, this system just adds a bit of static overhead to quest creation ensuring that the mob's classes are registered in the daemon; or continued effort like creating a new affix needs to not only be on one item, but entered into crafting, with a recipe, and costed, balanced, and so forth... These things aren't fire and forget. Each system the team creates adds overhead that decreases the amount of new productive work the devs can do each release cycle. (For example, suppose it takes melange x amount of work to make a critter in a quest. After the Monster Manual, it takes x+20% to make a monster in a quest that's also in the Monster Manual. The amount of time he has between releases doesn't change. So he can produce 20% less critters than if he didn't have the overhead of the MM...)

When the players keep griping that we don't want another unfinished system released and then abandoned, this is what we're talking about. This is why we get all huffy about the cost of Hearts, and whether Epic Past Lives are going to be rewarding enough for the the effort to attain them, because we see that culturally, Turbine thinks these systems are just content. Ship it and forget it.

All these systems add overhead. All this overhead detracts from total work accomplished.

I'd highly recommend this book to any professional developer, but especially for the Producers of DDO...
http://www.amazon.com/The-Mythical-M...dp_ob_title_bk

Thanks for reading.

[AbyssalMage]

Thanks for the headsup! While were discussing loot, can we discuss caster weapons?

It would be nice if the lore type on caster weapons matched up with one of the spellpower types (for thaumaturgy). Combustion of ice lore is not a useful weapon to anyone.

Match it with a Glacial of Fire Lore in your off hand and you have all win Seriously, on my lower levels on any servers I often have to do this because it is cheaper than buying a pure matching weapon (dang greedy players )

Still don't understand why Turbine thought putting out 1/9 of the product (pre/suffix fiasco) was a good idea. All they have to do is read the forums to understand we haven't been happy with the last 7 or so "updates" because they are ALL unfinished. Continuously putting out unfinished products is a sure way to tank a company. Imagine if Nike only sold you half a shoe and told you they will get to making the other half soon(tm)? Intel telling you they will get around to releasing the MB to their newest i7 chipset? A software company releasing the .gif files for your graphics software? The point is, eventually people associate your product with "cheap" and they find a company who can provide them with a full service of commodities. Currently Turbine has no competition in this niche of MMO's but I have a feeling that will be changing in the next decade.

[bowwer]

In all seriousness, I'm good at putting my foot in my mouth and bluntly saying things I shouldn't.
So here's one more:
Turning Ghostbane into a meme is, in my book, the best thing to happen to DDO in awhile.

It's gotten attention to this issue.
Previously, the rest of the treasure work was a cut feature. It's been gathering dust on my hard disk.
It has not been worked on recently.

During Shadowfell Conspiracy's development cycle, high-level decisions were made about priorities, and they had decided that the enhancement system needed a lot of work poured into it. The rest of the treasure work was cut, and I was moved on to enhancements.

In all fairness, the enhancement system revamp sorely needed it.

Here's where we let you all down:
After Update 19 was out the door and things started cooling off, we failed to adequately determine what our next priorities should be, and divert the right resources back on to those issues.

Now that everything's been ghostbaned, indications are that we might be able to get a treasure system update out for the first major patch after Update 20.

I'm not sure what, if any of my original plan it will contain. That won't be my call to make.
Once I'm given something concrete to work on though, I'll let the community know as soon as possible.

The Ghostbanians have been heard our struggle has not been for naught brothers and sisters stay strong and wield your Ghostbanes proud

[Deathdefy]

Developers aren't supposed to admit to having human emotions.
We need to be uncaring, aloof bastions of mystery, holding our Vast and Mysterious plans close to our chest.

So here's another Friday Night, Still At The Office foot in mouth moment:
I've been very frustrated with the state of itemization lately.
Epic Gianthold was where I last thought we had treasure systems in a really great place. We released a massive treasure system for it, along with the revamped augment system, incorporating several elements that I think are key to encouraging enjoyment and player retention: Lots of cool treasure to find in the quests, rewards for playing on higher difficulties, items with an upgrade system, and barter vendors with rewards to save up your effort for.


Update 19 shattered that "endgame" experience. The level cap increased, yet there was almost nothing new to aspire to. We couldn't support new rewards to properly itemize character builds in the new level 25-28 range. As a result, we've moved to a point where there isn't anything in the way of continued ways to progress your character while remaining at level cap.

Epic Reincarnation in Update 20 will help with some of that, but it's not (and shouldn't) be for everyone.

This sucks. We need to fix it.


Stay tuned by mid-next week for updates.
For now, though, I'm going home. There's only so much I should poke the beehive late on a Friday night.
Have a good weekend!
-Sunbane

That's pretty insightful!

Cool.

I'm going to beat my own personal dead horse and say to do what you can to help the poor newb rogues and ensure Radiance can be found as lootgen somewhere on something. Also, having Convalescent items solely as legacy items would be a weak outcome.

Sounds really good though. A big fat awesome version version of Bodyfeeder with Obscenity to boot would open up some cool possibilities for melee classes.

[Asmodeus451]

Feather, in a single afternoon you have restored my faith that SOMEONE at Turbine cares about the state of the game and the playerbase.

this is the kind of candid, no-nonsense, zero spin stuff that we need to see from ALL the devs.

[Drwaz99]

Developers aren't supposed to admit to having human emotions.
We need to be uncaring, aloof bastions of mystery, holding our Vast and Mysterious plans close to our chest.

So here's another Friday Night, Still At The Office foot in mouth moment:
I've been very frustrated with the state of itemization lately.
Epic Gianthold was where I last thought we had treasure systems in a really great place. We released a massive treasure system for it, along with the revamped augment system, incorporating several elements that I think are key to encouraging enjoyment and player retention: Lots of cool treasure to find in the quests, rewards for playing on higher difficulties, items with an upgrade system, and barter vendors with rewards to save up your effort for.


Update 19 shattered that "endgame" experience. The level cap increased, yet there was almost nothing new to aspire to. We couldn't support new rewards to properly itemize character builds in the new level 25-28 range. As a result, we've moved to a point where there isn't anything in the way of continued ways to progress your character while remaining at level cap.

Epic Reincarnation in Update 20 will help with some of that, but it's not (and shouldn't) be for everyone.

This sucks. We need to fix it.


Stay tuned by mid-next week for updates.
For now, though, I'm going home. There's only so much I should poke the beehive late on a Friday night.
Have a good weekend!
-Sunbane

Thanks again. While I still am unhappy with the decision to do away with the post-MOTU and EGH loot system (EGH was very, very good), I, as a business person can understand when certain things need to take priory over others: EHC-P > Loot in the context of U19 shipping. I am also happy to know that it's not a completely stagnant 1/2 implemented system that we see all over DDO and at least someone would like to do something about it sooner rather than later. Now I know it won't happen next Tuesday with U20 or even possibly anytime soon, I do see that there is at least a framework - even if a sketch on a bar napkin. Although it doesn't make ghostbane go away or the bad taste in my mouth fade, it makes it just that much easier to digest for now.

Once again, thanks for the candidness. It's very much appreciated. And hey Glin and Rowan, this thread is a beaming example of how things should be. I realize that not all things can be discussed like this but the "Vast & Mysterious" and "SOON" have done their time and overstayed their welcome. Retire them and move onto "Here's what we got guys, buckle up!"

[Missing_Minds]

While I appreciate the hectic schedule issues you guys face, I have one question to ask:

Why would you knowingly add an incomplete loot system to a game like this?

He already stated why. Management.

It really isn't that hard to read between the lines. I've been doing so for months now. Also,he flatly stated such.

[Wipey]

You revived EE questing and grouping a bit with eGH, great items in revamped quests, many would run those, even for trading for other items. It was really great way to "kickstart" asah if that's what you were going for.
3 months later random lootgen makes the effort/time/shards obsolete.
3/4 of hardest quests in game don't offer any worthwile loot, tomes removed from the loot tables.
Heroic lvl 15 item same bonus as EE Visor.

Where is the sense in that ?

[jakeelala]

you're probably going to get fired for admitting any of that. but it's all true and it's nice to know you know.

[patang01]

In all seriousness, I'm good at putting my foot in my mouth and bluntly saying things I shouldn't.
So here's one more:
Turning Ghostbane into a meme is, in my book, the best thing to happen to DDO in awhile.

It's gotten attention to this issue.
Previously, the rest of the treasure work was a cut feature. It's been gathering dust on my hard disk.
It has not been worked on recently.

During Shadowfell Conspiracy's development cycle, high-level decisions were made about priorities, and they had decided that the enhancement system needed a lot of work poured into it. The rest of the treasure work was cut, and I was moved on to enhancements.

In all fairness, the enhancement system revamp sorely needed it.

Here's where we let you all down:
After Update 19 was out the door and things started cooling off, we failed to adequately determine what our next priorities should be, and divert the right resources back on to those issues.

Now that everything's been ghostbaned, indications are that we might be able to get a treasure system update out for the first major patch after Update 20.

I'm not sure what, if any of my original plan it will contain. That won't be my call to make.
Once I'm given something concrete to work on though, I'll let the community know as soon as possible.

Thanks you, MOTU gave me a reason to open all chests and there was always a chance for something really cool. Shadowfail really smashed that feeling of anticipation (along with the market).
I'd love to find some high end spellpower rings again, maybe even with lore. Right now it's close to impossible to find some elements outside named, staffs and scepters. Unlike before when motu dropped spellpower on both rings and helmets. Really diversifying the entire spectrum from random loot to named.

[patang01]

Developers aren't supposed to admit to having human emotions.
We need to be uncaring, aloof bastions of mystery, holding our Vast and Mysterious plans close to our chest.

So here's another Friday Night, Still At The Office foot in mouth moment:
I've been very frustrated with the state of itemization lately.
Epic Gianthold was where I last thought we had treasure systems in a really great place. We released a massive treasure system for it, along with the revamped augment system, incorporating several elements that I think are key to encouraging enjoyment and player retention: Lots of cool treasure to find in the quests, rewards for playing on higher difficulties, items with an upgrade system, and barter vendors with rewards to save up your effort for.


Update 19 shattered that "endgame" experience. The level cap increased, yet there was almost nothing new to aspire to. We couldn't support new rewards to properly itemize character builds in the new level 25-28 range. As a result, we've moved to a point where there isn't anything in the way of continued ways to progress your character while remaining at level cap.

Epic Reincarnation in Update 20 will help with some of that, but it's not (and shouldn't) be for everyone.

This sucks. We need to fix it.


Stay tuned by mid-next week for updates.
For now, though, I'm going home. There's only so much I should poke the beehive late on a Friday night.
Have a good weekend!
-Sunbane

One word - greensteel for high level.

Call it bluesteel or whatever. But greensteel added longevity because we players were always building towards what we thought we needed. Now we're in limbo. We have named that only covers some stuff and the xpack named stuff, from the auto end rewards to the ones out of quests - well. For lack of words very plain. Unlike EGH, these are uninspiring.

A high end 'do it yourself' system would add so much life to actual items. We could finally make what we want; the way we like it. Bracers with lore and spellpower and green augment slot? Sure - why not.

Ring with ghostbane? (keeding)

I don't know how much time I spent decking out my toons by running shroud over and over. It was quick - 30 minutes. Every chest was rewarding. Every time you ran you got a little bit closer to the goal. Compare that to citw - almost an hour and you feel like you wasted your time when you get 6 chests of skunk. Not even a comm. It feel so unrewarding.

[Gazneth]

Feather, in a single afternoon you have restored my faith that SOMEONE at Turbine cares about the state of the game and the playerbase.

this is the kind of candid, no-nonsense, zero spin stuff that we need to see from ALL the devs.

/This!!

[Rhysem]

There's also a lot of additional prefixes and suffixes for weapons, armor, and accessories that haven't been put into the treasure system.

It seems like this will reduce even further the chance of ever finding any loot worth having. Perhaps when adding these, you could consider adding to the system a set of exclusions, where the exclusion can prevent generating a useless weapon/armor/etc.

For example: Keen FOO of Ghostbane -- can't crit undead, so anti-undead things and keen are pretty much mutually exclusive. Since you aren't limited to a single weapon in game, prettymuch everyone is going to have the anti-undead weapon (fire of ghostbane, holy of ghostbane, whatever) and then something else against the crittable types.

I mean, lore wise, 'someone' crafted these weapons -- they didn't appear from thin air. What sort of a drunken sot of an artificer cooked up the dozen keen FOO of ghostbane I've seen on the AH this week alone?

As extended examples, I'd point to places where there is a high degree of mismatch in power. At level 9, a Protection +5 cloak is awesome! But a Charisma +2, Protection +3 cloak is ... you may as well have just dropped plat and essences and saved everyone else unlucky enough to be stuck on the same server as the crafting hall is that extra little bit of lag.


Addendum:

Thanks for being honest with the player base. Its really too bad that its one lone dev, sticking his neck out to do it.

[Phaeton_Seraph]

He already stated why. Management.

It really isn't that hard to read between the lines. I've been doing so for months now. Also,he flatly stated such.

Yes. Management.

They sunk man hours, or developer hours, and the other associated resources into something (and those things are essentially spent money), had to re-prioritise and reallocate people and resources but couldn't bear to have that unfinished "product" sitting there and not representing any return on investment. You simply can't have that, it's anathema to the management types who have to report on where the money went and how it's now earning money.

So someone says "well let's go ahead and release what we have."


It doesn't matter what you make, whether you're a programmer, carpenter or baker, if you have the tiniest bit of pride in your work you won't want to release a product that's that incomplete.

It's usually managers and people who don't personally produce anything that make decisions like that.

[Missing_Minds]

It doesn't matter what you make, whether you're a programmer, carpenter or baker, if you have the tiniest bit of pride in your work you won't want to release a product that's that incomplete.

No you won't. But if you want to keep your job, you will.

Or if you are utterly sick of it and just want to be done with it.