For the love of Pete, enough with these terrible designs - karma

[woodchuckslayer]

No point in trying to get someone to acknowledge points that they will not acknowledge and some on this thread have effectively even admitted they aren't using logic in their argument so i will only point out these last two seemingly obvious tidbits and be done. First, 6 million epic xp is no worse and I would argue in fact that it is better than the heroic leveling process. Better as in faster, easier, etc. Second, is that the number of past lives that you will "suffer" through is minimal any way you slice it and if they are such a problem then address those themselves.

For instance, Oh no, my caster was not built to be martial and I want the martial feat cause its really cool and I don't want to heroic tr into a martial class or even lr my caster into something martial capable..I want to receive caster lvls for 5 ranks of ED..

Sounds incredibly immature doesn't it? But there is a kernel there that is salvageable. Epic lvls should indeed give caster lvls to spells. Ask for that to be fixed rather than something unrelated. Oh and by the way, grandmaster of flowers is a decent go to for martial sphere as a caster. Didn't lvl grandmaster of flowers? Who's fault is that? This would be the second point, namely that as it is currently proposed it requires being in sphere not a particular destiny.

[patang01]

No point in trying to get someone to acknowledge points that they will not acknowledge and some on this thread have effectively even admitted they aren't using logic in their argument so i will only point out these last two seemingly obvious tidbits and be done. First, 6 million epic xp is no worse and I would argue in fact that it is better than the heroic leveling process. Better as in faster, easier, etc. Second, is that the number of past lives that you will "suffer" through is minimal any way you slice it and if they are such a problem then address those themselves.

Personally there's absolutely no logic involved in adding a longer more convoluted journey to a problem that steams from lack of synergy in design. None. The issue isn't really 6 mill XP. It's doing it in a way that is by no means fun.

For instance, Oh no, my caster was not built to be martial and I want the martial feat cause its really cool and I don't want to heroic tr into a martial class or even lr my caster into something martial capable..I want to receive caster lvls for 5 ranks of ED..

Sounds incredibly immature doesn't it?

As a fallacy yes.

I find people who argue against something by making emotional claims to be immature.

But there is a kernel there that is salvageable. Epic lvls should indeed give caster lvls to spells. Ask for that to be fixed rather than something unrelated. Oh and by the way, grandmaster of flowers is a decent go to for martial sphere as a caster. Didn't lvl grandmaster of flowers? Who's fault is that? This would be the second point, namely that as it is currently proposed it requires being in sphere not a particular destiny

So it's someones fault for not unlocking destinies? It's not the design that creates this mess, but the player for not wanting to bang their heads towards their goal as a challenge?

I don't know what you pay for here in life, but when I leave my office I leave licking stamps behind. The fact that people are cancelling their VIPs over things like these and other issues isn't so much proof that I'm right as it's an indication that terrible boring slogs just isn't all that entertaining.

[Pooklebunny]

Personally there's absolutely no logic involved in adding a longer more convoluted journey to a problem that steams from lack of synergy in design. None. The issue isn't really 6 mill XP. It's doing it in a way that is by no means fun.

I agree with you entirely, but I also think that despite the weaksauce Epic Past Life feats and the hideous off-destiny grinding, this system will be adopted by the vast majority. They have the ultimate carrot: the fate points. Yes, the EPL's suck, but if you can obtain a 4/3/2 setup instead of a 4/2/1, people will do it.

I am supremely confident that in order to guarantee the "success" of Epic Reincarnation they will introduce a 4th twist slot at or around the time that they raise the level cap to 30. Without those extra fate points from ETR'ing, you won't be able to get your 4/3/1/1 twists. And much as you might loathe the very idea of grinding out that much XP, the lure will get harder and harder to resist as more people post builds using greater numbers of twist slots, or find synergies between higher-tier twist combinations that weren't previously possible. The stick they're beating us with mighted be crusted with fecal matter and the blood of previous victims, but just look at that juicy, juicy carrot...

[wtorchia]

I agree with you entirely, but I also think that despite the weaksauce Epic Past Life feats and the hideous off-destiny grinding, this system will be adopted by the vast majority. They have the ultimate carrot: the fate points. Yes, the EPL's suck, but if you can obtain a 4/3/2 setup instead of a 4/2/1, people will do it.

I am supremely confident that in order to guarantee the "success" of Epic Reincarnation they will introduce a 4th twist slot at or around the time that they raise the level cap to 30. Without those extra fate points from ETR'ing, you won't be able to get your 4/3/1/1 twists. And much as you might loathe the very idea of grinding out that much XP, the lure will get harder and harder to resist as more people post builds using greater numbers of twist slots, or find synergies between higher-tier twist combinations that weren't previously possible. The stick they're beating us with mighted be crusted with fecal matter and the blood of previous victims, but just look at that juicy, juicy carrot...

I am going to have to agree with you on this. I ground enough points when the cap was 25 to get 4/2/1 with a fate point tome. I would LOVE to be able to do 4/3/1, and 4/3/1/1 makes me drool. The thought of girding that out though makes me want to smash my computer. It was NOT fun to grind out the off destinies. It seams that once you have capped a destiny in each sphere, or hell even ALL the destinies in a sphere you should be able to ETR after 6 mill karma in ANY sphere. That or the let us stay 28/30 and just rest the destiny that you are ETRing.

I think the fundamental problem with EDs is that they are basically a job system. If we could not swap EDs around like we do and they where instead true level I could see the need to level in an off ED with each ETR. I personally would love to see EDs taken to level 8 and then 10, or let us mutli ED once we hit 26+.

[erethizon]

Why would I ever want to start collecting gear for a class I would seldom use that is completely different from say my fighter?

That's a lot of either BTA or BTC type gear just to get a small benefit from a class I have no desire to play on that toon for a majority of my time.

What a horrible waste of my entertainment time. Forcing someone to re-level as a completely different class just to do a sphere?

There's just no logic in circumventing terrible design by an even longer trip when a simple and better design fixes it. Like untying karma from the actual sphere.

DONE. Everyone can continue leveling any way they want but those who just don't want to waste their time gagging themselves on poor entertainment value continue to have fun.

We have always had to level as a new class to get a different heroic destiny. I know you get hung up on this "enhancements are just right for the class you are playing during heroic" stuff while you speak about off-destiny leveling as being so different, but this is just like heroic leveling. If you want a cleric past life you TR into a cleric. If you want a divine epic destiny past life you first TR into a cleric or paladin. Then you get the perfect synergy with your class that you crave so much. They do give you the option of staying a fighter if you wish (the equivalent to getting a cleric past life by TRing into a fighter but using the cleric enhancement tree) but as you have pointed out that is a bad idea so naturally you wouldn't do something so silly. You would instead TR into a cleric first so you could earn your karma in a main destiny.

As for why you would want to start collecting gear for a class you don't care about the answer is simple. Don't collect the gear. The main reason you hear people talk about how effortless Epic Hard quest are is because the people running them are in maxed destinies with great gear. My main plays as all the classes (triple completionist in training) and thus does not have nearly enough space to hold a ton of gear for each class. When I play heroic content virtually everything I wear all the way up to level 20 has a minimum level between 5 and 9. By the time I get to epic content in that gear Epic Hard is indeed somewhat challenging. Since I know you like to claim that you enjoy a challenge (I have my doubts because I am sure you are going to shoot down this challenge-causing proposal) simply don't bother collecting any gear for you divine class. Wear what you find. And if you really like a challenge don't use the auction house either. If you like a challenge you will find the game to be more enjoyable even on EH and you will save a ton of time farming for gear that you are not going to keep after you are finished with the divine past lives.

[eonfreon]

Define forcing, because as I already said the word does not fit. You want but do not need all epic past lives. Are you a triple completionist? No. How ever have you survived? If they make things in the Epic past lives overly mandatory that will be a separate issue and do not confuse too good to pass up and mandatory. Mandatory is if, and it has happened, they rescale things so the epic destinies are needed more than wanted. I am no fanboi. If it is broken I say so. These things you spoke of were initially offered poorly, of that their is no question. They are no longer that. When you win, as we did, do so graciously.

Expect to have to make it clear to them at some future date that we STILL do not welcome TR heart changes for instance. But again, we have won for now.

Considering it will largely be the only thing to do in DDO's endgame, it is rather mandatory for people who want to play the game. Since the whole system seems rather lackluster to me, I'll half-heartedly play it at best. I'll do the easiest parts of it first, ER for EPL feats that allow me to stay in my favored ED, and earn some additional Fate Points. As soon as it gets "hard" (the stupid tedious grind of playing off-destinies or HRing into a class I don't want to play) then the game will pretty much grind to a halt for me. Since once again they've decided tying Fate Points into ED xp grinding is the way to go, then I'll just pretty much forget it at that point. Which means no desire to advance my character's progress. And that just means less desire to play. Since the whole of their current endgame revolves around this idea, it just means there's no way I'll pay into this game until they create something new. I'm tired of re-treaded ideas. Come up with something new Turbine. Your idea of constantly cannibalizing your past content to give the illusion of new content has gotten very old.

[erethizon]

I've never done a TR where I was ramming my head in a wall because I had to level a savant using kensei fighter enhancement.

That would be a terrible system.

Forcing?

I think it works just fine. If I want to spend less time doing a ER I'm 'forced' to do so in a off destiny. If I want to have more synergy I'll have to spend more time leveling. The only other options is not to do anything at all since there's not much else to do at this point.

As for winning? We haven't won anything. People who like running heroic TR can continue doing so while anyone who wants a semblance of a end game has to deal with the mess we got now. Not a very compelling reason to continue playing.

This is just another case of Turbine giving us too much freedom. If you want a heroic past life you truly are forced to play as that class. There is no other option to get that life. If you want a divine epic past life you have the option of TRing into a divine class (the smart choice) or earning 6 million experience in an off-destiny (the choice that no one seems to enjoy yet countless people act like they are "forced" to choose). This entire debate comes out of the problem of Turbine giving us too many options. If they had simply said from the beginning that you could not earn a divine epic past life unless you were playing as a divine class (just like the heroic system works) there would be so much less whining about being "forced" to play a certain way (even though, in that case, they would actually be forcing us to play a certain way). But since they made the mistake of giving us more choices, there are an endless stream of posts by people whining that they are "forced" to play in off destinies even though that is the CHOICE these people are making. No one cares if you choose to level in an off-destiny. Most of us would actually probably prefer you make the smart choice and TR into a divine class before working on your divine epic past lives (the game could always use more divines). But if you make the choice to level in an off-destiny don't come here whining about being forced to. You chose to make the unfun choice. That is entirely on you. You choose to be unwilling to TR into a divine class without first farming a ton of gear (apparently because you might actually be challenged by the game if you did not and you only like it when it is easy). Once again, your choice. You choose to act like you need divine epic past lives while seeming to be fine with skipping many of the heroic past lives.

You don't want to do the work to get all the heroic past lives and so you seem to be okay with not getting them. You don't want to do the work to get all the epic past lives (either by making the smart choice and TRing into a relevant class or choosing to stay a fighter and level in an off-destiny), so why are you not okay with just not getting the past lives for those spheres?

[eonfreon]

This is just another case of Turbine giving us too much freedom. If you want a heroic past life you truly are forced to play as that class. There is no other option to get that life. If you want a divine epic past life you have the option of TRing into a divine class (the smart choice) or earning 6 million experience in an off-destiny (the choice that no one seems to enjoy yet countless people act like they are "forced" to choose). This entire debate comes out of the problem of Turbine giving us too many options. If they had simply said from the beginning that you could not earn a divine epic past life unless you were playing as a divine class (just like the heroic system works) there would be so much less whining about being "forced" to play a certain way (even though, in that case, they would actually be forcing us to play a certain way). But since they made the mistake of giving us more choices, there are an endless stream of posts by people whining that they are "forced" to play in off destinies even though that is the CHOICE these people are making. No one cares if you choose to level in an off-destiny. Most of us would actually probably prefer you make the smart choice and TR into a divine class before working on your divine epic past lives (the game could always use more divines). But if you make the choice to level in an off-destiny don't come here whining about being forced to. You chose to make the unfun choice. That is entirely on you. You choose to be unwilling to TR into a divine class without first farming a ton of gear (apparently because you might actually be challenged by the game if you did not and you only like it when it is easy). Once again, your choice. You choose to act like you need divine epic past lives while seeming to be fine with skipping many of the heroic past lives.

You don't want to do the work to get all the heroic past lives and so you seem to be okay with not getting them. You don't want to do the work to get all the epic past lives (either by making the smart choice and TRing into a relevant class or choosing to stay a fighter and level in an off-destiny), so why are you not okay with just not getting the past lives for those spheres?

He probably is rather "okay" without getting those EPL. However, this is the only thing the game is offering us in terms of advancement. So I think it would be nice for there to be another option. An option to continue to advance a character that involves playing the ED you like, rather than playing in ones you don't like. I understand Heroic Reincarnation is something you like to do. It is not something I like to do.

You obviously like the options presented you. I don't pretend to have the solution that is "best", except what I consider "best" as far as what I'm willing to do as I play a game. From what I consider "perfect", there is plenty of wiggle room and ability to compromise. What they proposed initially was incredibly far from any idea that I considered entertaining. They've gotten better as they've compromised, but I think there is still room for improvement in ways that will be enjoyable to more people. You think we've been given too many options. But that's because you like the options; others, like myself, don't.

I have no illusions that Turbine will come up with something that completely pleases me. But I would like to see them get closer. Just because their latest proposal is far better only means, to me, that they were far off in concept before. You're obviously very fond of playing through hoops. That's fine, but the hoops haven't even been put into the game yet. They are still defining what those "hoops" are. So no one is getting something free that someone else earned through "hard work".

Yes, we can be "fine" with basically skipping entire parts of the game. But I'd rather play a game that doesn't have too many systems that are about "just ignore it if it's too annoying", especially when that system is basically all that's left to do.

You keep talking about options. There are two options; reincarnate and gain new abilities. Or don't and consider the game done. The only wiggle room there is how often you're willing to Reincarnate to consider it done. Not parenting all further character progress to having to play in any sort of "off-destiny", I believe, will add to people being willing to Reincarnate more often and keep playing. It will extend the longevity of the system.

Basically, I want a system that allows me to progress even for the simple "sake of progressing" without turning it into what I consider a chore of constantly "giving up power". Yes, I think a system would be improved by making it so that you can earn "Divine Karma" without playing in the Divine Sphere if you don't want to. It is very likely I won't ever care about those Arcane Karma PL Feats, but I would like to continue in a system that I can continue to earn something without having to give up other things.

I don't want EH to suddenly become "more challenging" by the proxy of losing abilities I've already earned. I want to play at an Elite level that really is tailored to best abilities of the EDs to people's playstyle.

And once again Turbine seems to want to parent gaining Fate Points to maxing out everything. If they would just make Fate Points generic then I would indeed be able to ignore useless EDs and useless EPL Feats and instead concentrate on just making progress while playing in a preferred ED.