For the love of Pete, enough with these terrible designs - karma

[DrakHar]

I guess I just disagree fundamentally, at least from a melee perspective, EXCEPT the arcane sphere. If all I have to do is cap one destiny, then dreadnaught for melee, fury for primal, both are great. Yes, one is better, but both are good. If i want divine, eh, unyielding. Is it great? Nah, but it's tolerable. Yes, if I want the arcane sphere ones, I need to be in a **** destiny.

I guess from a caster perspective this would all change, but frankly, the benefits aren't good for DC casters anyhow.

[Thrudh]

I guess I just disagree fundamentally, at least from a melee perspective, EXCEPT the arcane sphere. If all I have to do is cap one destiny, then dreadnaught for melee, fury for primal, both are great. Yes, one is better, but both are good. If i want divine, eh, unyielding. Is it great? Nah, but it's tolerable. Yes, if I want the arcane sphere ones, I need to be in a **** destiny.

I guess from a caster perspective this would all change, but frankly, the benefits aren't good for DC casters anyhow.

Yeah, all 3 of those work semi-well for a melee... I've used LD, Fury, and Unyielding Sentinal before by choice... They aren't bad for a melee. But being FORCED to stay in one for 6 million xp is a bit much.

[Xaenith]

People will either mindlessly karma farm whatever "Impossible Demands" is determined to be best or quit playing all together.

The best thing about the ETR system is that all in all it's pretty terrible so if you don't bother with the hamster wheel you're really not missing much.

Unfortunately, what does that leave for the game?

There is no point in playing endgame because the loot sucks, and there is no point TRing because the bonuses suck.

So, why bother playing at all? Neither hamster wheel is particularly appealing right now.

[Havader]

Yes yes there is no point in playing anymore, I mean they make me actually play a class for the past life feat. Then they expect me to do a heroic TR after Epic Tring if I want to run a class through its corresponding destiny. That's just to much work. Why would I stop playing the one class I love just to get karma for an off sphere? Those epic otto's boxes should be free, heroic ones to so I can get everything I want without working for it. Hell sell tomes of past lives, except those should be free also. Sorry I just couldn't help it with all the whining from people who don't want to play, but want all the perks of hard work. Seriously I have leveled off destinies and sure it hurts, but with twists and decent character design/playing it is manageable. Granted Zerging on EE is definitely not something I would want to try, but if people won't play with you when you are leveling an off destiny in quests then maybe it is time to find a better guild or playing companions.

[Teh_Troll]

Unfortunately, what does that leave for the game?

There is no point in playing endgame because the loot sucks, and there is no point TRing because the bonuses suck.

So, why bother playing at all? Neither hamster wheel is particularly appealing right now.

I'm down to about 10-20 quests a week. I literally make more troll-posts a day than I run quests.

I don't know what's left, but I got 8 months left on a VIP sub so might as well sign in and sneak-hump halflings in the harbor.

[woodchuckslayer]

This is a good point...

But I don't think it's a good idea to make us live in off-destinies at all.

We've ALREADY complained about it... so I'm not sure why they are doing it again.

I'll just get a few past lives in destinies that match my character, and not bother with the other ones.

Complain about that which it is reasonable to complain about and nothing further lest you be considered that oft over-used word. But seriously, what is the problem? You want Epic Destinies from other sphere? Are they that crucial? Yes/No Yes? Then earn them or at most suggest that they are more appropriate in some other sphere if you can do so reasonably and by reasonably I mean with reason and logic. No? Then what is the problem? Do not take them. They are past lives..the term should mean something.

Let me point out that I argued against the destiny xp wipe myself. This is however an uncharacteristically reasonable response from Turbine. I won't say I think it won't open, or they don't hope it will open, some unsavory door down the road. I will say just that the proposal is from what i have seen in it's latest form, reasonable. Argue the unreasonable when it appears and accept the rest. It will keep you more than busy enough. Trust me.

Edit-I keep noticing this bit about leveling an off destiny too. This seems odd since while you need to be in the sphere you still have full access to it. It is not nearly the painful process that was leveling it up from scratch..and you managed that.

[woodchuckslayer]

I'm hoping this is sarcastic . . . but in case it's not . . .

8 pally/6 ranger/6 rogue. or whatever, we have enough multi-classing options to NOT have to actually play a terrible class to get it's PL.

EDs? Meh, it just sucks.

And yes, I concede that it makes total sense to have to earn karma in a sphere to get the EPL from it . . . but the "this sucks" factor of that is high enough to out-weigh the logic.

Nothing outweighs logic to the logical.

[fredericko]

One nice perk about sagas was that you could gain xp on a different destiny than that you were running quests with. This should be kept into the game IMHO. There are feasible workarounds for this - like giving free comms, or free xp, or just free karma for saga competions regardless of which reward you choose. Former token system empowered players to get THOW by running good xp/minute quests. New system should try to maintain the good things about the old system, and not force players to run mediocre / bad xp per minute quests and on top of that not letting them choose the xp reward. That's a double xp penalty. Sagas being so buggy from day one doesn't contribute to my confidence in the new TR system, especially when we're talking about the one mechanic that is motivating a sizeable group of my guildies and friends to keep playing the game.

[Thrudh]

It's not as bad as ED farming, because a "sphere" has more choices... A melee isn't really that bad off under this system... It would be nice if one only needed 3-4 million karma exp, so you could spend SOME time releveling in your favorite ED.

[DrakHar]

It's not as bad as ED farming, because a "sphere" has more choices... A melee isn't really that bad off under this system... It would be nice if one only needed 3-4 million karma exp, so you could spend SOME time releveling in your favorite ED.

2 million. The same as if you were capping a destiny. This,I feel, would be the perfect number. I'm not in favor of needing 6 million. I'm also not in favor of scrapping the xp completely, because as someone pointed out, there's no logic in it. There's no FUN in 6 million.
I think needing to "ghost cap" a destiny is the perfect amount.

[patang01]

Complain about that which it is reasonable to complain about and nothing further lest you be considered that oft over-used word. But seriously, what is the problem? You want Epic Destinies from other sphere? Are they that crucial? Yes/No Yes? Then earn them or at most suggest that they are more appropriate in some other sphere if you can do so reasonably and by reasonably I mean with reason and logic. No? Then what is the problem? Do not take them. They are past lives..the term should mean something.

Not if Turbine creates a system where there's little synergy. More to the point - if you want all additional 9 additional fate points you will have to off destiny, unless you're fanatical enough to heroic reincarnate for each destiny (needing to add all the gear of course).

Sorry, but I don't intend to make leveling 1 single toon a 5 year project of silly hamster wheeling. At some point I'd like to enjoy it too and for that reason I can guarantee burn out and more people leaving. There's just no place to create a counter productive system that cater to people who see mindless 'challenge' (hamster wheeling) as some kind of reward. Any game like that (like Demon Soul) are niche.

Turbine did a couple of mistakes here. First - they painted themselves into a corner by creating a poor counter productive design. For most part we didn't notice it at the beginning since MOTU was overall good. Until we started to see that in order for people to deal with off destinies they started super farming a few couple of quests. Turbine tried to solve that by adding a bunch of roadblocks etc but what they didn't do was to fix the actual issue.

So the thing remains; if you want to off destiny level then you are far better off grinding a few set quests then anything else. And on top of that Turbine is now set to do this x3 with the karma in off destiny spheres. Genuinely arguing (and those of the 'challenge fan bois) that you should first heroic reincarnate to a better class and then run the destiny for that class to later ER. It's just way to much hamster wheeling for your average player.

All this on top of the abysmal failure of the latest xpack. I mean look what they've done so far and had to walk back. The initial wipe all destiny progress - terrible idea and I don't understand whomever thought of that. Tie a new currency to sagas only; thank god that is changing but the fact that they originally ran that out is scary. I mean we're talking about terrible ideas here forcing people to scrap a large portion of their progress.

And now this idiotic karma system forcing people to off destiny level 6 mill XP. Sure - I can run my savant or arti in off destinies - but we're talking about EN and EH runs galore. And It's not FUN. Fun pays their bills and that's why I first started playing DDO. Remove fun and it's just more work, like licking stamps 8 hours a day 5 days a week.

Some like that but a majority don't.

Again - Turbine created this awful system by tying fate points to destinies. By forcing people to cross level through destinies without connecting all spheres together. To force people to start in a specific destiny instead of anywhere and that people have to unlock a path before moving on - forcing people who'd like to say do a divine by first heroic reincarnate to first unlock the destiny by moving crossway over the map.

All these road blocks turns people off. All these artificial silly things removes fun. Sure - they might sell a key here and there but soon enough that money will dry up because people get tired of paying for this scheme.

[Teh_Troll]

Nothing outweighs logic to the logical.

Trolling outweigh logic. it's kinda like rock-paper-scissors only trolling trumps everything.

Just put shears back in the store and I won't care.

[Teh_Troll]

2 million. The same as if you were capping a destiny. This,I feel, would be the perfect number. I'm not in favor of needing 6 million. I'm also not in favor of scrapping the xp completely, because as someone pointed out, there's no logic in it. There's no FUN in 6 million.
I think needing to "ghost cap" a destiny is the perfect amount.

I could live with it needing 2 million. That'll only suck 1/3 as much as what's proposed.

[voodoogroves]

trolling outweigh logic. It's kinda like rock-paper-scissors only trolling humps everything.

ftfy

[woodchuckslayer]

Not if Turbine creates a system where there's little synergy. More to the point - if you want all additional 9 additional fate points you will have to off destiny, unless you're fanatical enough to heroic reincarnate for each destiny (needing to add all the gear of course).

And now this idiotic karma system forcing people to off destiny level 6 mill XP. Sure - I can run my savant or arti in off destinies - but we're talking about EN and EH runs galore. And It's not FUN. Fun pays their bills and that's why I first started playing DDO. Remove fun and it's just more work, like licking stamps 8 hours a day 5 days a week.

Again - Turbine created this awful system by tying fate points to destinies. By forcing people to cross level through destinies without connecting all spheres together. To force people to start in a specific destiny instead of anywhere and that people have to unlock a path before moving on - forcing people who'd like to say do a divine by first heroic reincarnate to first unlock the destiny by moving crossway over the map.

Define forcing, because as I already said the word does not fit. You want but do not need all epic past lives. Are you a triple completionist? No. How ever have you survived? If they make things in the Epic past lives overly mandatory that will be a separate issue and do not confuse too good to pass up and mandatory. Mandatory is if, and it has happened, they rescale things so the epic destinies are needed more than wanted. I am no fanboi. If it is broken I say so. These things you spoke of were initially offered poorly, of that their is no question. They are no longer that. When you win, as we did, do so graciously.

Expect to have to make it clear to them at some future date that we STILL do not welcome TR heart changes for instance. But again, we have won for now.

[Gremmlynn]

Complain about that which it is reasonable to complain about and nothing further lest you be considered that oft over-used word. But seriously, what is the problem? You want Epic Destinies from other sphere? Are they that crucial? Yes/No Yes? Then earn them or at most suggest that they are more appropriate in some other sphere if you can do so reasonably and by reasonably I mean with reason and logic. No? Then what is the problem? Do not take them. They are past lives..the term should mean something.

I think the problem is that many don't see them so much as something they need or don't need as simply something to do, a reason to log in. So the disconnect comes from Turbine, in giving us something to do, give us something that's just not much fun to do. That just doesn't cut it as a reason to log in.

[danotmano1998]

I think everyone has expressed pretty clearly that the whole "Run in off destinies" thing is not fun.
I don't know if Turbine has completely understood this, or if they are going to attempt another paradigm shift, but I certainly hope so.

[ArcaneArcher52689]

2 million. The same as if you were capping a destiny. This,I feel, would be the perfect number. I'm not in favor of needing 6 million. I'm also not in favor of scrapping the xp completely, because as someone pointed out, there's no logic in it. There's no FUN in 6 million.
I think needing to "ghost cap" a destiny is the perfect amount.

I'd be leaning more ~3 I think you should have to go above and beyond the destiny cap, especially when the destiny cap is literally 1/3 of the XP you'll need to hit lvl 28. Also, i think 2 PL's per 6 million XP is a fair trade off

[Gremmlynn]

I'd be leaning more ~3 I think you should have to go above and beyond the destiny cap, especially when the destiny cap is literally 1/3 of the XP you'll need to hit lvl 28. Also, i think 2 PL's per 6 million XP is a fair trade off

Well one would need to, currently, earn the the 6.6 million xp to reach cap every EPL regardless, the only question would how much of it has to be earned in a specific sphere. Personally I could see either 1.35 million (enough to reach level 23) or 2.1 million (24) as sufficient for karma, with the rest of the epic life spent in a more conducive and likely enjoyable destiny.

[patang01]

Define forcing, because as I already said the word does not fit. You want but do not need all epic past lives. Are you a triple completionist? No. How ever have you survived?

I've never done a TR where I was ramming my head in a wall because I had to level a savant using kensei fighter enhancement.

That would be a terrible system.

Forcing?

I think it works just fine. If I want to spend less time doing a ER I'm 'forced' to do so in a off destiny. If I want to have more synergy I'll have to spend more time leveling. The only other options is not to do anything at all since there's not much else to do at this point.

As for winning? We haven't won anything. People who like running heroic TR can continue doing so while anyone who wants a semblance of a end game has to deal with the mess we got now. Not a very compelling reason to continue playing.