Paying for "Endgame" Makes No Sense

[HAL]

Originally intended as a hardcore option for the most Elite level cap builds – prior to U14 - the accessibility was made trivial for some when Epic levels were introduced. We left that unchecked and low priority for some time and there is an amazing disparity between players that can grind dozens in hours vs. the majority that takes days (20-30 hours) of gameplay to accomplish – we are balancing this system.

DDO doesn't have a traditional MMO "Endgame". As I understand it this is by design because DDO has True Reincarnation. In no other MMO I've ever heard of does an MMO force a character to pay in order to participate in the Endgame. They create Endgame to encourage players to continue playing their game. I understand that TRing makes a character (slightly) more powerful, but the downside is already that there is an increased XP cost to level. The current "reward" of TRing is not so powerful that it necessitates a high barrier-to-entry - anymore than you should pay for a traditional MMO Endgame because you acquire gear to make your character more powerful.

If DDO is going to charge (either in-game grind or $ in the store) for access to their endgame, and the player doesn't want to pay, what is left to the player but to find another game? This strategy doesn't make sense to me.

I will NOT grind Sagas to receive Commendations. Grinding is not how I play and I would bet that most players also do not grind. I also will not pay in the store for a Heart. I was OK with the Tokens of the Twelve being traded for a Heart because they were relatively easy to get, but ultimately I don't understand charging anything in the first place to play "Endgame" content.

[voodoogroves]

DDO doesn't have a traditional MMO "Endgame". As I understand it this is by design because DDO has True Reincarnation. In no other MMO I've ever heard of does an MMO force a character to pay in order to participate in the Endgame. They create Endgame to encourage players to continue playing their game. I understand that TRing makes a character (slightly) more powerful, but the downside is already that there is an increased XP cost to level. The current "reward" of TRing is not so powerful that it necessitates a high barrier-to-entry - anymore than you should pay for a traditional MMO Endgame because you acquire gear to make your character more powerful.

If DDO is going to charge (either in-game grind or $ in the store) for access to their endgame, and the player doesn't want to pay, what is left to the player but to find another game? This strategy doesn't make sense to me.

I will NOT grind Sagas to receive Commendations. Grinding is not how I play and I would bet that most players also do not grind. I also will not pay in the store for a Heart. I was OK with the Tokens of the Twelve being traded for a Heart because they were relatively easy to get, but ultimately I don't understand charging anything in the first place to play "Endgame" content.

You kinda got it wrong - but I totally see your point.

DDO doesn't have an end-game (it once did). TR is the only safety valve keeping folks playing since there is no freaking end-game. It has become, for many, the de facto end-game because there is essentially nothing else to do.

This is part of why the reaction is so strong. If DDO had a great end-game, they could probably scrap heroic reincarnation at 20 and people would be ok because playing at 28 was fun-enough that they didn't mind - there's stuff to do there. It doesn't though, so the people who want to keep playing the game have been *SETTLING* for TRing. They aren't all doing it because it is the most awesome fun thing to do - it's all that is left.

Putting additional barriers, costs, etc. in make that "settling" even harder.

A great many of the active TR folks I know would much rather prefer there was an endgame they played w/ most of their characters and only TR'd one at a time. Instead, people are TRing their entire stables.

U20 isn't bringing anything else to do at cap - and the reaction is what it is because it looks to be some quests we don't likely need, more and varied types of collectibles and barriers to TRing.

[GrimmMar]

SWTOR has an endgame set up that strongly encourages you to pay for the endgame in that you need a flashpoint(dungeons) or operations(raids) pass in order to gain maxiumum benefit. In that the flashpoint pass would allow you to gain more loot from endgame flash points and operations cannot be run wothout the pass. You can buy these passes with ingame currency but due to limits on F2P players they may not be available within your budget. Of course if you sub you lose these limitations for the duration of the sub.

Other F2P games you may well be required to buy the latest expansion in order to access the endgame content or be able to get there.

It will very much depend on an individual game and how they choose to try to monetize things as to what you may be required to pay.

[Teh_Troll]

Back when epic was epic . . . 20 Epic Offering of Bloods was a real achievement. back then I'd buy my hearts in the store because I needed my precious tokens fro other stuff.

Spending those 20 tokens on heart represented a time investment, as Glin said this was trivialized in U14.

I'd have no issue if a "new" TR heart required the same time investment as it did pre-MoTU and pre easy-button Cannith Challenges.

TLR: Inflation, 20 tokens just doesn't represent what it used to.

[Teh_Troll]

With all that said DDO is in desperate need of an end-game.

[redspecter23]

Part of me wonders why they don't just make heroic TR completely free, then also throw in a "coupon book" for 10% off an Otto's Box and discount xp pots during your next life. I'm thinking we should be paying for convenience (the box and the xp pots) but not the ability to progress in the game in the first place (TR). Using this option would hopefully increase Otto's sales and let people TR freely whenever they want.

[TrinityTurtle]

This is part of why the reaction is so strong. If DDO had a great end-game, they could probably scrap heroic reincarnation at 20 and people would be ok because playing at 28 was fun-enough that they didn't mind - there's stuff to do there. It doesn't though, so the people who want to keep playing the game have been *SETTLING* for TRing. They aren't all doing it because it is the most awesome fun thing to do - it's all that is left.

That is the real heart of the problem, everyone has a different definition and freedom of playing choice should be key. I DO Tr because it's super awesome fun. I hate being stuck in a set group of quests, no matter how big and vast, for a long period of time, and really enjoy the 'redo'. There is no settling about it, tr was the best thing since sliced bread for me. However, for the above poster it's obviously not.

And yet all camps are coming together screaming 'we hate this'. I don't want to have to grind for enternity to get to the fun part (the tr), and I don't think players like the person above me should have to grind painfully to get to what they refer to as a safety valve just to have something to do. When so many different playstyles are all agreeing something is bad, Turbine has a problem.

[voodoogroves]

With all that said DDO is in desperate need of an end-game.

I TR because there isn't anything really fun to do at cap; at least heroic has some variety and there's still tons of gimp builds I've not played through yet.

If we were back when epic was epic and there was an endgame, I'd TR a crapton less.

[HAL]

SWTOR has an endgame set up that strongly encourages you to pay for the endgame in that you need a flashpoint(dungeons) or operations(raids) pass in order to gain maxiumum benefit. In that the flashpoint pass would allow you to gain more loot from endgame flash points and operations cannot be run wothout the pass. You can buy these passes with ingame currency but due to limits on F2P players they may not be available within your budget. Of course if you sub you lose these limitations for the duration of the sub.

Other F2P games you may well be required to buy the latest expansion in order to access the endgame content or be able to get there.

It will very much depend on an individual game and how they choose to try to monetize things as to what you may be required to pay.

I just read-up on the Flashpoints and Operations. SWTOR gives F2P players a limit on Flashpoints and no access to Operations unless they pay. Subscription players have no limit. But this is RL payment for access to content. In DDO you can either subscribe and gain access to an adventure pack or purchase the pack from the store. F2P players can receive a Guest Pass.

But this is not equivalent to charging and IN-GAME cost per character for access to TRing no matter if you are VIP, Premium or F2P.

[HAL]

Back when epic was epic . . . 20 Epic Offering of Bloods was a real achievement. back then I'd buy my hearts in the store because I needed my precious tokens fro other stuff.

Spending those 20 tokens on heart represented a time investment, as Glin said this was trivialized in U14.

I'd have no issue if a "new" TR heart required the same time investment as it did pre-MoTU and pre easy-button Cannith Challenges.

TLR: Inflation, 20 tokens just doesn't represent what it used to.

Why do you believe it is necessary to charge anything at all to TR?

[HAL]

I TR because there isn't anything really fun to do at cap; at least heroic has some variety and there's still tons of gimp builds I've not played through yet.

If we were back when epic was epic and there was an endgame, I'd TR a crapton less.

Even if there were a traditional endgame, TRing is an Endgame alternative and I still don't understand why there should be a cost to participate.

[maddmatt70]

One of my old buddies who no longer plays was one of the first completionists on Khyber. He loved true reincarnating and back then it was not even that popular. What he would do is he would have 2-3 characters at cap so he could run some raids here or there if he felt like it, but he spent most of the time true reincarnating his main. When he got his main up to cap he would run 20 epic quests and try to get some of the epic loot from raids and quests he was missing for his main and also get his 20 tokens in the process. Then he would true reincarnate. That is what I think the devs want the true reincarnate players to be like. Not what it is like now where you never play the end game - just true reincarnate over and over interspaced with farming tokens in some challenges for a few hours every life.

[voodoogroves]

One of my old buddies who no longer plays was one of the first completionists on Khyber. He loved true reincarnating and back then it was not even that popular. What he would do is he would have 2-3 characters at cap so he could run some raids here or there if he felt like it, but he spent most of the time true reincarnating his main. When he got his main up to cap he would run 20 epic quests and try to get some of the epic loot from raids and quests he was missing for his main and also get his 20 tokens in the process. Then he would true reincarnate. That is what I think the devs want the true reincarnate players to be like. Not what it is like now where you never play the end game - just true reincarnate over and over interspaced with farming tokens in some challenges for a few hours every life.

This may be, in theory, but the scale is way off.

I'd be fine hitting 20, running 20 or so quests or equivalent (one long session maybe), getting my heart and TRing.

This is going to take maybe 10 full sagas to get that heart. You'll be 24 or 25 before you have the comms for it - many, many sessions.

EDIT: AND, there was stuff to do at 20. Even if we smoke the pipe and kid ourselves saying there is a valuable and fun set of things to do at 28, we're talking about HEROIC TR ... going from 20 back to 1. We're not talking about a reincarnate at 28 ... and if we were your story only holds if 28 was generally fun and active place to be (which it isn't).

[Dandonk]

Not what it is like now where you never play the end game - just true reincarnate over and over interspaced with farming tokens in some challenges for a few hours every life.

What end game?

[voodoogroves]

What end game?

Exactly.

If there was as much stuff to do at 28 as there was pre-MOTU at 20, we'd be telling people to get their Eveningstar and High Road gear, their 20s on some key raids etc. before doing their TR

As it is there are basically no raids, very little relevant named gear that requires farming (and I mean farming with an eventual goal like at least a 20th list, not like the earslug was in the old days - low chance random drop - kinda like goat boots - where you could run forever and never hit that 1%).