Earning Hearts of Wood - post U20

[Systern]

Loot and how it affects the sales of adventure packs;

You have utterly destroyed the once brilliant and esteemed random loot system for no apparent reason. Not only is getting the same 4 suffixes a giant step backwards from what we knew and loved, the auction house is flooded with cheap random items that outclass most of the highest level named items. There goes any incentive to buy adventures for loot. Poor XP and meager loot have successfully rendered your new shiny expansion insignificant and undesirable regardless of it's quality.

The sad truth is that DDO is 7 years old. It's in the twilight of it's life cycle. They've announced that by the end of next year, they're going to extend the cap to 30 and leave it there. DDO is being moth-balled (asheron's-called?). So while the U14 loot was lovely, it took a systems developer to labor and script out the item effect changes from bleeding to lacerating to hemorrhaging to phlebotomizing; and obscenity, etc. After next year, a content-dev won't need to re-script each item, they'll be able to easily just +1 the Ghostbane XVII item you have for the new shinies. It's a lot less development effort to maintain than lovingly crafted loot.

[Henky]

Ah okay, this makes sense now. So basically if you get 3 commendations per quest per saga on Epic Hard, then this means that based on the details of which quests fit into which saga's we can conclude that if you intend to complete every saga then these quests are worth:

                          	Saga
Epic Saga                  	Total
=========================================
Feast or Famine            	3
A Cabal for One            	3
Crucible                   	3
Maze of Madness            	3
Trial by Fire              	3
The Madstone Crater        	3
Foundation of Discord      	3
A Cry for Help             	3
The Prison of the Planes   	3
Gianthold Tor              	3
The Lords of Dust          	3
Servants of the Overlord   	3
The Spinner of Shadows     	3
Beyond the Rift            	6
Impossible Demands         	6
The Unquiet Graves         	6
The Lost Thread            	9
The Battle for Eveningstar 	6
Don't Drink the Water      	6
In The Belly of the Beast  	6
The House of Rusted Blades 	6
The House of Broken Chains 	6
The House of Death Undone  	6
The Portal Opens           	6
Trial by Fury              	9
The Deal and the Demon     	9
Reclaiming the Rift        	9
Outbreak                   	3
Overgrowth                 	3
Thorn and Paw              	3
The Druid's Curse          	6
Detour                     	9
Lost in the Swamp          	9
A Stay at the Inn          	9
Rest Stop                  	9
The End of the Road        	9
Friends in Low Places      	6
A Lesson in Deception      	6
The Thrill of the Hunt     	6
Army of Shadow             	6
Through a Mirror Darkly    	9
The Tracker's Trap         	6
Lines of Supply            	6
Breaking the Ranks         	6
A Break in the Ice         	6
What Goes Up               	6
				---
				258

So doing every quest in every saga is worth 258 points. So based on this post, if you do every saga on EH then you can spend 250 commendations to TR after a single run. This is considered a "small time investment" for a level 20 character?

So assuming that you're still going ahead with 2000 commendations to Epic TR then you're still looking at 8 repetitions of every quest in a saga.

So ignoring the "inefficient" Gianthold quests that are only worth 3 commendations per run, you would only run the new expansion quests which comes in at 228 commendations for doing those 38 quests. So you would just do those 9 times. So that's 342 quests to Epic TR.

Or just spend whatever TP the Epic Heart ends up as when you put it in the Store.

342 quests or a TP purchase.

Not very subtle is it?

EDIT: Oh yeah, and you do realise that of course this now means that as soon as you hit 20 then you will only run those quests on your way from 20 to 28. So all of that nice epic VON, Menechtarun, Red Fens, Carnival, Sentinels content just sits and gathers dust? Remind me again how this is promoting player choice and diversity? Even GH becomes meh because of it's low commendation value. And of course all raids are now worthless. But nobody runs raids any more and we shouldn't be trying to encourage them to ... right?

Quoted because he is right.

Oh! And just wanted to add a little thing. If you are dead when a quest finish, that quest won't count for sagas. So if you wan't to TR be careful to not die when the quest is finishing.

Saga system to TR is so wrong i don't know how to say it to make it clear.

[Flavilandile]

New Day, new round, new mass answer.

This is not the number we are expecting at all, despite how often this is quoted, and feel this has misinformed some player's expectations. This is partially why we tried to clarify earning progress in multiple sagas at the same time. Our estimates are for roughly 3 Commendations per quest after looking at the overlapping quests in Forgotten Realms, played on Epic Hard.


This is also why we're actively looking at different ways to earn Commendations of Valor, though we can't promise specifics for U20 at this time. That is part of why we aren't touching Tokens of the Twelve for U20, either.

We know the values are placeholder values, but Sorry for you: We ALL know the VALUE of Placeholder Values on Lamannia, namely :
The Lamannia Placeholder Values are the values that will be put on live in a few weeks. All the past examples tell us that.

So you will have to do better and actually give and show us the exact values we will have on live before it hits live.

And you seem DEAD SET on forcing on us the use of SAGA when we don't want it.
( you know like the Spellcraft skill you forced on us so that we could gimp all the Charisma and Wisdom based characters by having to buy points in Intelligence to try to keep up with the wizards in spellpower. Tough Choices... I'm still chocking over it. )

Every epic quest should be awarding these as end rewards.
Drop sagas entirely.

Problem solved.
Oh, and YES to BTA.

More choices = more fun.
Why does it matter if some people can do it faster?

Why do you guys keep insisting on gating the acquisition of these?

Definitely the above is the way to go.

Make the new currency drop into the end quest chests of all the epic chests ( like the tokens can do right now ) with a drop rate similar to the token one ( 30ish quests more or less to have enough tokens for a True Heart ).
Make the new currency BTA. ( I already explained the reasons why in my previous post... Doing some quests with some characters IS NOT FUN. )

[jonqrandom]

Why are you bothering having ANY debate over whether Comms are BtA or BtC?

There is only one viable solution which will keep a large quantities of your best, long-standing, revenue-providing, expansion-buying, PAYING customers playing this game, and that is making comms BtA.

If you have any genuine intentions to make them BtC then I suggest you tell us now, and stop wasting everyone's time, so we can all go and find another game/hobby, and you guys can start looking for new jobs.

By the way, it is not my intention here to be flippant, I am deadly serious.

+1, and YES, and /signed, and THIS^^^
there are a lot of threads going, not people threatening to leave DDO, but simply asking for recommendations on what to replace it with. personally, i'm subscribing to every one i see, 'cos, y'know, it's relevant to my interests right now :/ if turbine wants my money, and theirs, it needs to earn it.

oh, and untie reincarnation from sagas, thanks.

[Franghasea]

Forgive the lack of lore knowledge, but I hope everyone will understand what I am attempting to propose... if 30 is the new 16 ... perhaps it is time to have the Forgotten Realms version of Green Steel (henceforth FR-GS). Who doesn't at least appreciate the value and custom-ability of GS? Utilize this to put the proverbial dagger through the Hearts of Wood that players (myself included) are so passionate about.

FR-GS could address multiple issues including player preferred quests for farming (aka not ES), "perceived" lack of unique or uber items, having to run Sagas solely for the point of TRing, and TRing itself. It has been stated that Sagas are going to be a cornerstone of game play. Please consider giving me more value for accepting the Saga system. Sagas if given the right value, I am not only accepting of, but looking forward too. Finally, with FR-GS, my CoVs can be BTC. I give (but I also get ).

Several people have mentioned feeling stuck in limbo right now with so much not clear. Tell me Tokens are sun-setting with Update xx in the fall of 2014 with the implementation of FR-GS. Token lovers can heart farm for a year, if they want. Now there is clarity, I can plan, I can enjoy...

If Module 6/Vale gave us Green Steel usable next life at 11/12, why not farm for ingredients for the next FR-GS equivalent to build your own uber epic items, usable at level 20 for the next TR life. This gives more options to assist with whatever the player decides is right for them (TR, Epic TR, raiding). Give me a reason to look forward to 20+. Drop the ingredients in the Sagas at the end chests of each quest with a percent chance increased based upon quest difficulty level. Give a decent increase % chance if running an FR raid (we would have two at this point based upon what has been shared). This combined with hopefully an XP increase boost for the tedious high level heroic quests in ES is a great value I believe.

Finally, to make the FR-GS have the most value possible, give us a raid that is exclusive. Meaning, to enter each player must be wearing at least one FR-GS item, min Tier 3 level already. This raid would be the only way to obtain the FR-GS Uber Supreme Shard of Power to add a tier four item enhancement. Make the raid a randomized raid. Make the layout random, the traps random, and the end-fight random. As an homage, make the raid require one of each of the six original 1st edition classes (Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Bard, Monk, and Magic-User (Wizard) to be in the group of 12 to gain raid entrance and also be present in the party at chest opening - no re entry, no alt swaps). This I believe could pay proper respect to those who aspire to be the best in the game and have invested the time and effort to maximize their character. As the planets ever realign, so do the fourth tier enhancements, which only last a calendar year, and then change. This could be another type of end game.

The DDO store then could add select FR-GS ingredients, GS item cosmetics (allow my FR-GS electric related great sword to emit a lightning strike sound once a minute and shoot lightning to the sky in public areas), Saga quest bypass (1 per Saga in addition two the two other bypass options, not usable in Eberron). There are likely other ways to monetize this, but I am better at buying than selling...

When Sagas rolled out, I didn't intentionally play them. My main runs to 20 and TRs, My capped alt helps other guild members with their named item needs. That said, after first running the GH Saga and then one in ES, (no clue which - I found it by happening by the Saga giver and realizing if I run these last three, VIP one and 5 shard the other, there is a XP reward for a destiny that I don't have to run in. As far as rewards, if I have to choose between the XP OR the CoV, I'm not nearly as happy but I know I can't have it all...

While likely not the solution, I think what would simplify things would be if we had to level from 1-30 to TR period. (If I am Iconic/NEW to DDO, my first life only starts at 15). When you TR you would get auto-grant Past Life feats added to you as you re-level (Passive Heroic feat at 1, Active Heroic Feat at 14 with a cool-down timer, passive Epic PL feat at 20, and active PL feat at 25 with a cool down timer).

[Protasious]

Worldcrafter is more right than I was, with my misleading "3 per quest" comment. (This is part of why devs sometimes fear to speak and put out 'real' numbers because we make mistakes, and those of us good with numbers are not necessarily the same of us who are good with words.)

My apologies, again.

having a set amount per quest available as a reward option for completing a saga isn't how i would like to see this implemented, but rather have every saga reward say 2/3 of the set amount as a guaranteed reward regardless of what is chosen as the reward, and then also have another 2/3 of the above set amount available in the reward list.

basically what I'm saying is don't make the commendations of valor the only worthwhile reward on the reward list, because lets face it for anyone planning to TR, they wouldn't choose any other reward on the list. yet if you were guaranteed some commendations just for completing the saga, and had the option of choosing more as your reward, several people would choose other rewards and not feel as though they are being forced into picking the commendations.

this from the point of view of a player in a small (6 active accounts) guild that is only level 70. I'm currently on my 12th life on my main toon and plan to get every epic destiny and icon past life as well as finish completionist. i would love the chance to still choose guild renown or XP or skill tomes as the saga reward, and yet still feel as though i have progressed towards being ready for my next TR or ER.

also as a side note i totally support the commendations being BTA and not BTC. and currently my main toon that i plan on reincarnating several more times is my only level capped toon.

[brucelee82]

Would it be possible to make it so you can trade challenge mats in for hearts of wood. Similar to how you can trade them for tokens and then get true hearts with them. This would make challenges more relevant. Also many of them can be run at heroic levels for those who don't want to do epic content. Just a thought.

now make it happen please.

[RedOrm]

Well, a new day on the bridge.
The new numbers (average of 3 comms per quest, price of 250 comms per heart) are better than the old, but as others have repeatedly pointed out, that's peanuts compared to the real issues.
Let's list them again for clarity.

*BTA vs BTC. This needs to go NOW. BTA is the only valid option.

*The link to sagas. This also needs to go. Coms need to drop from all level 20+ end chests. The reasons for this also have been explained.

Untill then, you can find me on the bridge.

Greetz,
Red Orm

[Ausdoerrt]

Good to see progress on this. Here are some constructive comments/suggestions based on my vision, as well as a few other people I've talked to over the last couple of days:

Our estimates are for roughly 3 Commendations per quest after looking at the overlapping quests in Forgotten Realms, played on Epic Hard.

So 250 comms/3 per quest = ~83 quests*40 min average completion time = ~55 hours of active farming per heart. That's kind of nuts.

A little less nuts if you look at it in terms of completion - all sagas per 1 heart. Not too bad, but here are the problems with this:

1) Seems a bit odd to have to level to 25~28 to heroic TR? Many saga quests are higher than level 20-22.
2) Not everyone has all the sagas, and with the very limited number of sagas available, this would still mean farming a handful of quests over and over. Limiting rather than expanding the game, promoting the "pain" grind - both against the stated design policies.
3) Players will be deprived of any other Saga rewards if they're thinking of TRing, for a long time - making sagas rather un-fun, and a "mandatory grind" from the player perspective. As far as I'm aware, this was not the intention behind this system.

If the Commendations are BtA, we expect that most Commendations will be farmed by level-cap characters and passed to other characters, and that they will be earned much faster than if the Commendations are BtC and earned by lower level characters. We also believe there are legitimate reasons for both choices and why one or the other is better for gameplay or fun, many of which have been expressed by various players recently.

BtC comms only make sense if you could earn them in heroic content. So that a player planning to TR and prioritizing sagas while leveling up could earn a heroic heart by level 20. Anything else is excessive. If comms only drop in epic content, they should be BtA.

"Earned much faster than if the Commendations are BtC" - this is simply NOT true. For a majority of players, epic quests are rather difficult, and only a handful of min/maxers are able to steamroll Epic Elite sagas in record time. For most of us, it'll take days of gameplay just to complete a single epic saga. Please do not balance the system around 1% of population, balance around the average. If the barrier is too high, many players will be forced to either severely limit their TR plans or abandon the system altogether.

In addition, I would recommend NOT balancing the costs around "most effective way to run sagas" as hinted earlier by Glin. Very few people actually look at it that way; it is not always possible to run quests in a specific order; nobody will want to repeat a quest until saga completion, which would reduce the number of LFMs. It is also VERY difficult to track the sagas effectively at this time.

Also, please consider the entry barrier/perspective of new and returning players when looking at the balance.

This is also why we're actively looking at different ways to earn Commendations of Valor, though we can't promise specifics for U20 at this time. That is part of why we aren't touching Tokens of the Twelve for U20, either.

I still feel like limiting Comm drops to sagas only is too restrictive (particularly considering the very limited current scope of sagas and unclear plans for future ones). On the one hand, this obviates much of other epic content. On the other hand, being excluded from other saga rewards is un-fun. There are two ways I see this being solved:

1) Limited Comm drops in-quest (epic chest or quest end-reward) in addition to Saga rewards. This would give players a sense of progress and also the opportunity to opt out of the saga system - at the cost of slower progression towards the goal. This way, sagas will just be a significant boost toward the goal, a reward for the dedicated - which fits with their current design.

-or-

2) Players receive Commendations as a saga reward IN ADDITION to other saga rewards. This will eliminate the frustrations at sagas turning into little more than a TR farming machine.

In addition to either, I believe that we need more Sagas, especially covering Eberron content, as well as some sagas that can be conceivably completed in 1-2 sittings by an average player (with somewhat lower rewards than the long sagas).



Hope this is logical enough, and helpful to the discussion.

[lyrecono]

Well, a new day on the bridge.
The new numbers (average of 3 comms per quest, price of 250 comms per heart) are better than the old, but as others have repeatedly pointed out, that's peanuts compared to the real issues.
Let's list them again for clarity.

*BTA vs BTC. This needs to go NOW. BTA is the only valid option.

*The link to sagas. This also needs to go. Coms need to drop from all level 20+ end chests. The reasons for this also have been explained.

Untill then, you can find me on the bridge.

Greetz,
Red Orm

yep, and with him, many others!

Hey red?
have you tried reaching out to other media?

[RedOrm]

yep, and with him, many others!

Hey red?
have you tried reaching out to other media?

I wouldn't know where to start, so no. But feel free :P

Greetz,
Red Orm

[zaphear]

good point. this is where they chime in and say they would do an immediate hotfix and not to worry.

Tell that to Baudry... which was down for what, close to 3 months?

[era42]

This is not the number we are expecting at all, despite how often this is quoted, and feel this has misinformed some player's expectations. This is partially why we tried to clarify earning progress in multiple sagas at the same time. Our estimates are for roughly 3 Commendations per quest after looking at the overlapping quests in Forgotten Realms, played on Epic Hard.

This (17) is the number that players got after you guys suggested us to test it at Lamannia. Why is it not then the number?

Basically you're saying we don't get benefits for running the overlapping sagas simultaneously, we get a heavy penalty for not doing so. At each quest giving 3 comms divided by amount of sagas they are in, it means we should find the least painful saga with most unique quests without any overlap, and just run that.

So, Gianthold over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.

Well, that's good news for those who didn't buy packs I guess, bad news for everybody that likes to run varied content instead of horribly grind the same content againd and again. Sure, gianthold has crucible, but there's no In the Belly of the Beast with the unavoidable red alert, so less annoying for sure. And no need to go to quests with Shadar-Kai chains either, another plus.

This is also why we're actively looking at different ways to earn Commendations of Valor, though we can't promise specifics for U20 at this time. That is part of why we aren't touching Tokens of the Twelve for U20, either.

That's good. But, until you do, you should considering putting the hearts up for discount, with clear disclaimers that the prices will go up.

Some napkin math based from the current numbers. We still have no clue about the number of tokens/quest related to saga difficulty, 11 quests and 17 comms (with chain with only quests in 2/3 sagas), so lets assume 3/quest for hard completion. That would be what, 1-2 for normal, 4-5 for elite and 6-8 for true elite. Guesswork, so lets go with hard and 3/quest, that's what we know.

* Hard completion with optimal saga overlap, 3 tokens / quest
* 15 minutes for each quest
* To get 250 for heroic heart, that's about 21 hours (250/3*15minutes)
* To get 500 for Epic Heart, we're looking at 42 hours of grind.
* 10min/quest reduces this to 14/28, but that's pushing it unless you use vip and shards to bypass the long quests. And that's an unreasonable assumption if running in a party.

Actually not that far from the original time, but as people can now do full TR in 21 hours, that's still a big effort compared to that. You should aim for at most 20 hours for the most expensive heart, and go down from that.

Sure, people capable of zerging through epic elites can get things a bit faster, getting the regular elite saga should be possible within roughly similar time. The true elite is really not worth it unless you're spending shards like crazy. Is shard-economy the reason for this approach?

[Henky]

So 250 comms/3 per quest = ~83 quests*40 min average completion time = ~55 hours of active farming per heart. That's kind of nuts.

And thats for the heroic TR, Epic TR was 2000 comms, we dont know the new number, but I would say 500-750. I wanted to do some Epic TRs, but now I won't be doing it.

If doing all the sagas once and getting to 28 isnt enough to epic TR/heroic TR, I wont bother with it.

[Ausdoerrt]

* 15 minutes for each quest

How many EH/EE quests can you actually complete in 15 minutes? I'm sure even hardcore elite zergers would have trouble to keep that up. That's more like minimum, not average time.

If doing all the sagas once and getting to 28 isnt enough to epic TR/heroic TR, I wont bother with it.

I don't think it makes sense to require people to level to 28 to heroic TR at all. See my detailed post above.

[darthhento]

If the Commendations are BtA, we expect that most Commendations will be farmed by level-cap characters and passed to other characters, and that they will be earned much faster than if the Commendations are BtC and earned by lower level characters. We also believe there are legitimate reasons for both choices and why one or the other is better for gameplay or fun, many of which have been expressed by various players recently.

We're of course happy to hear feedback on all aspects of Reincarnation or other upcoming changes, but if you have specific thoughts on whether you'd prefer BtA Commendations or a cheaper price for Heroic True Hearts of Wood, please let us know here in this thread!

27 heroic lives and counting.

I prefer not to get my heroic character into epics while I'm accumulating my heroic lives. When I hit 20 on that character I TR immediately. Tying Heroic Hearts of Wood to epic BTC saga rewards is BAD. Current system allows me to play whichever epic quest I want on any epic character I want, the new system should be the same.

DO NOT MAKE ME RUNS SAGAS FOR TR TOKENS OR WHATEVER THE **** YOU DECIDE TO CALL THEM.

[Terebinthia]

Well, a new day on the bridge.
The new numbers (average of 3 comms per quest, price of 250 comms per heart) are better than the old, but as others have repeatedly pointed out, that's peanuts compared to the real issues.
Let's list them again for clarity.

*BTA vs BTC. This needs to go NOW. BTA is the only valid option.

*The link to sagas. This also needs to go. Coms need to drop from all level 20+ end chests. The reasons for this also have been explained.

Untill then, you can find me on the bridge.

Greetz,
Red Orm

Yes. This.

To reiterate what everyone else has said -

No BTC ingredients.

No forcing of sagas down our throats.

No limiting of where we can get ingredients to TR.

I would also like to see some confirmation that Tokens of the Twelve will continue to drop post update 20. I think that is very unclear from the dev response so far.



I note that Glin said that precise examples of how players play would be helpful, so I thought I would chime in with that.

I am a member of a small custom channel where there are at least 4 completionists. These guys are fantastic, and, more importantly, when they are TRing, they put up LFMs and take any and everybody. I know I have learned a ton from them. Fewer TRs mean fewer people doing this (as well as fewer people buying the I am sure very lucrative Otto's boxes, XP pots and the like), to the detriment of the player base. I know my strategy will be to make sure my TR needs are met for the foreseeable future with the existing system and then make sure that theirs are, because I don't want them to leave.

I have TRed several toons. The first was my original character, Terebinthia. I was forced to TR her after being badly affected by the Greater Reincarnation bug a few years back and receiving no support from Turbine. I then double TRed a FvS I had capped to have a toon to run end game content with while I did that, because I enjoyed the class and wanted to make my toon more powerful. That toon is in theory my completionist but has stalled along the way due to time constraints. My other TRed characters I TRed to reuse toons that I didn't enjoy playing.

So 1 TR was forced. 1 TR (twice) to make a toon I enjoyed more powerful. 2 TRs because I didn't enjoy the toons in their current state.

I think this makes it clear why BTC commendations are a terrible idea. Basically you are forcing me to play a toon I don't necessarily enjoy in order to make it more playable. I'm not going to do that. Given that BTC raid loot is, with a very few exceptions, not even an issue now, I am far more likely to just delete the problem toon and start again rather than pony up for a Druidic Heart in the store. If it is clearly a better economic choice to buy a new character slot for a build idea or simply delete, then you are doing something wrong.

In addition, bang goes any idea of logging in a toon that will be able to help the group most effectively. Most of my epic tokens have been earned on my cleric or FvS, coming along to help others out. With a BTC system, where is my incentive to do that? There is none. That is not good for grouping.

Tying commendations to the buggy sagas that have been up and down more times than, well - also a terrible idea. I know I have barely looked at them apart from picking them up when I happen to see one because they have been so flaky. I also really dislike that you are effectively forcing me to run certain content a certain amount of times, as well as forcing me to level to 24 to do certain sagas. I get far more choice of what to run in the current system. Have commendations as an end reward for sagas by all means, but that should be one of several options. Ideally they would drop in the same places in Eberron as dungeon tokens / fragments currently do, plus in the Forgotten Realms chain rewards. Give us more options. Not less.

[Ebondevil]

Perhaps the "upgrade to Hard" option does not currently work? That would explain how we got from about 3 Comms/quest on EH to 16/17 for the whole saga. Maybe that 16/17 is what it would earn you on Normal? Not that it makes the numbers much better (its still over 80 quests to do even provided you do it on EH)

Not an unreasonable assumption, however if you look at the other rewards and compare them with the rewards for Epic Hard listed on DDOWiki, you will see they exactly match the Epic Hard Rewards list, Links provided below for simplicity:

• 4.1 The End of Eberron Saga (Epic Level 21-23 Quests)

Hard (All + 19 points - 3 on Normal, 8 on Hard) - One of: 49K XP / Choice of one of two +3 skill tomes / 7.5K guild renown

• 4.2 Menace of the Underdark Saga (Epic Level 21-23 Quests)

Hard (All + 22 points - 4 Normal, 9 Hard) - One of: 68K XP / Two +3 skill tomes / 7.5K guild renown

[era42]

How many EH/EE quests can you actually complete in 15 minutes? I'm sure even hardcore elite zergers would have trouble to keep that up. That's more like minimum, not average time.

EE:s, very few. But, Guesstimated 15 minutes from partying EH sagas. One set of guildbuffs is enough for a fast completion of one chain of CitW flagging quests, but that means no tarrying. Many quests are more on the 30-45min range for sure, so the 15 minutes was an optimistic estimate. And even at that optimistic number, we end up with 42 hours of fast-grind for epic heart. That's 3 weeks of 2hours/day of superfast quest-running in quests you don't get to pick. Sounds like a chore instead of fun-time.

And yes, I aimed for minimum completion values, as an effort to compare to the minimum times to get twelve tokens currently. I should have been more clear about that.

I don't think it makes sense to require people to level to 28 to heroic TR at all. See my detailed post above.

I agree. I wasn't trying to get a complete solution, just throwing some napkin math at a part of the puzzle.

[Steiner-Davion]

You're not getting it... It's too easy to get a heart right now... One session of play means no one is buying them from the store... When tokens first came out, they were harder to get, and many of us bought TR hearts... Now, no one does...

perhaps we should have seen the writing on the wall when Turbine changed the name from Epic Tokens/Token Fragments to Tokens (Fragments) of the Twelve.

What I really want to know is why the change in the first place? Why not spread the system to the FR content as well, especially now? MY guess is that it came down form WotC that the name had to change because Turbine proposed using the old Epic Tokens to upgrade your Voice of the Master and Mantle of the Worldshaper to the new color Augment that combines the two. And since those two items are found via Eberron content, WotC would not allow those items to be upgraded via running FR content. (Same reason why we can't have airships in the FR or really teleport directly between the two worlds.)

All that being said, not only is it stupid, it is just plain bad form and unduly punitive. If the system off the Old Epic Tokens and Fragments had been or were to be expanded to FR content and all the rest of the Epic Content, then the old system for turing in Tokens for Hearts could be kept in place with a super slight modification.

It sounds like that the Hearts were to easy to acquire via token. Ok if you take that at face value and accept it (and it is probably true) then simply increase the amount of tokens needed. BUT this increase would only work and be accepted by the players would be by increasing the number of quests where you could fragments and tokens, ie all epic content.

Now if the Name was still Epic Tokens and Epic Token Fragments, then we can do this. But, since they Changed the Name to Tokens of the Twelve, WotC would not allow them to drop in the FR.

So this begs the question again, why the heck was the name changed in the first place? If it is because of the new Color Augment from the VoM and MotWS upgrade, then the easy fix would be to give the players more meaningful uses to spend these tokens on Oh wait, if they expanded the Token system to include Iconic and Epic Reincarnation, and increased the costs for Heroic Hearts slightly, then everything would make sense, be in balance and no one would be up in arms.