Earning Hearts of Wood - post U20

[Dawnsfire]

Yes, that appears to be the only change.

No mention of BTA change. No mention of the new Comms appearing outside of the Sagas, which consist of GH and FR only stuff.

To be fair he did say that in time they would add more ways to get comms. The question of course is when will they get around to that and what other ways will that be?

[Thrudh]

Not sure I understand the motivation behind linking hearts to sagas. If you would just add a small amount of epic fragments to all epic quests players would have freedom to run content they enjoy yet still have to work for their heart. All you are doing is forcing players to play very specific quests and that is not going to be popular. Maybe in a year when dozens more sagas are added but then you should have probably waited until then to link hearts to it.

If your motivation is to sell adventure packs you could try making the unpopular packs more inciting by increasing their xp, quality of named items and fixing the random-gen loot system/disaster. It would be far cheaper for you then redesigning a whole system and the people would love you for it.

The problem with tokens or comms dropping in every epic quest is that powergamers will just find the "best" comm/minute quest and farm the hell out of it. Now, I'm not saying that's wrong, but maybe that's not Turbine's design goal. They want people playing a wide variety of quests.... So they are using the saga system to promote that.. It could work, but they need more sagas... They have more time now to add a dozen more sagas into the mix by Update 21, and then it may not be too bad.

They definitely need to go BtA though... We should be able to farm comms on our epic characters, and not be forced to run epic content on a character that you just want to TR at 20.

[Darkrok]

So if I understand correctly you are leaving the ability to get heroic hearts with tokens of the twelve for now, but still plan to remove the ability in the future?

I'm fine with this until the future arrives. At that point we'll see.

For now, crisis averted for the time being.

[droid327]

Tokens stay until Commendations are fully implemented, that's the best news to date on the matter. There's no reason to deprecate ANY system until its replacement is fully ready to go.

The saga system serves to spread out repeat questing and reward for playing a variety of content and more challenging content. It does not penalize for playing out of order and you can be on track for multiple sagas simultaneously.

Or, conversely, I could say "The saga system serves to completely deprecate non-related quests, and forces you to run certain select content you don't enjoy, to get the rewards from content you do enjoy".

You're looking at it with entirely the wrong metric. You shouldn't measure how many people are completing Sagas, compare that to some a priori expectation of how much Sagas should be run, and then FORCE people to run Sagas by linking something they want (TRing) to it.

Your philosophy regarding currency should be that EVERYTHING has the potential to grant currency rewards, based on the time and difficulty of each individual accomplishment. You should be able to earn currency HOWEVER you enjoy playing the game - running the same quest, running different quests, challenges, adventure zones, etc. That way, everyone can earn the same rewards by having FUN, rather than by "grinding" whatever arbitrary pathway you lay out.

If Comms are your new universal currency, put them in Saga rewards. Put them in quest rewards. Put them in chests. Make them buyable with challenge mats and other barter currencies. Everything you "do" in game, other than economic activity like trading/crafting, should advance you towards "final character status" rewards like TRing.

[Spoonwelder]

What are we solving?
• The saga system serves to spread out repeat questing and reward for playing a variety of content and more challenging content. It does not penalize for playing out of order and you can be on track for multiple sagas simultaneously.
• Along those lines, for over a year DDO has not been adding to the Twelve tokens reward system, quite the opposite, and we will continue to deprecate this system over time. As this is being written, the design team is discussing a few approaches to how this will be done.

First - I think you are solving a problem that isn't really there with the first point - I know I for one don't find the repetition that bad.....first because I choose it. I can run full chains, I can run single quests, I can multitask (grind for tokens and that damned elusive shard/seal I want) with the current system. Your proposed solution 'deprecates' my ability to do that. Please consider that in the plan - just make the comms drop like the tokens did and then add a bonus in the saga reward such that it is truly a choice between XP, Guild XP or Comms.

Second - why deprecate a working system - I don't see any gears in this machine that cost you a tonne to maintain. Is this a 'new and fresh' is always better arguement? I may not agree but at least tell us why you are deprecating something. For that matter is this all part of a long term plan to deprecate Eberron entirely to save on licensing fees?

Fourth, BTC is still a bad idea - some of us play multiple characters and forcing us to push them through to new predetermined points is not attractive. Please reconsider this.

Finally, thanks for the communication - please keep that up. That said, I truly think you should have been able to anticipate this outcry and had this horse out in front of the cart.

[oradafu]

To be fair he did say that in time they would add more ways to get comms. The question of course is when will they get around to that and what other ways will that be?

Just like Portal Fragments from the Shroud will be eventually fixed? Or that the Wand Bracelet will soon be fixed and added to the House C Challenges? Or that there will be more Eternal Potions added to the game? I can run through a series of things that have been stated that would eventually be added to the game that never happened. But they're good at removing stuff that works.

[Antiguo]

A Wall of Text to say "prices are placeholder and it's the only thing that will really change"

What about BtC?

What about challenges, whats the point of owning them now?

What about premium people who doesnt own GH or Forgotten realms when you eventually retire the tokens of the twelve?

You want to avoid quest repetition forcing us to REPEAT the quests from forgotten realms or gianthold, really?

Be careful or Scott Adams will sue a cease and desist on you, PHB clone.

[droid327]

The problem with tokens or comms dropping in every epic quest is that powergamers will just find the "best" comm/minute quest and farm the hell out of it.

Minmaxers gonna minmax. You cant do anything to stop that...what you CAN do is make sure that there are other, comparably viable pathways to accomplish the same goal.

When Tokens dropped from EVERY Epic quest, that was the case. There was still an "optimal" quest to grind Tokens, but you could grind them almost as well doing every other quest, so if you didn't want to grind TiM, you could do it another, more fun way, it'd just take a little bit longer, but not too much.

Then they removed them from all but a handful of quests, and most of them had drop rates that were not comparable to the few remaining "good" ones, so everyone was funneled into DA/TiM unless they wanted to spend 2-3x as long grinding LoD chain or Carnival instead...

[TDarkchylde]

This is a start - but merely a start. You didn't address the commendations' bound status. Neither did you address just what alternatives would be available for those who want nothing to do with Sagas, or would rather have the other rewards they offer.

This is merely a start. We're watching like hawks now. While we will wait to see what comes, don't get complacent. The pressure is not off. Not by a longshot.

Hundreds of players' watchful eyes are on this update now.

[patang01]

Last week we updated Lamannia with a new barter option in place for earning Hearts of Wood in-game. While we would have been better if the information I posting here was released at the same time, we received feedback from the community on the most concerning issues that come with both introducing a new system and changing an old. Below, I intend to address a few facts on the system, cover some of the design thoughts and also address concerns that were highlighted over the weekend.


When Update 20 goes out to live servers, there will be a new commendation available through select Epic Sagas that will allow players to barter for Hearts of Wood. Initially these Epic Sagas will offer an option to claim a Commendation of Valor; in time we intend to add additional methods to obtain “Commendations of Valor.”

(a) Saga: The End of Eberron (Epic)
(b) Saga: Perils of Cormyr (Epic)
(c) Saga: The Planeswalker’s Path (Epic)
(d) Saga: Menace of the Underdark (Epic)
(e) Saga: Honor of the Huntsilvers (Epic)
(f) Saga: In the Wastes of Gianthold (Epic)

A quest can overlap two or more sagas. In the situation where a quest is in multiple sagas, you will receive completion credit for each saga, for example, completing “A stay at the Inn” from the Update 16 Adventure Pack will reward credit in 3 Saga’s (b, c, e above). In this way, you can complete 5 sagas by playing 36 quests, and various combinations within that scenario if you prefer to skip some content.

The points you earn from completing a saga will vary based on the difficulty you completed them in. The number of commendations earned on an all elite run is 3-4 times that of an all normal run. In addition to difficulty, the higher level sagas tend to reward more commendations as well. Since the commendation is the currency, the important figure is the cost of the Hearts of Wood.

Feedback received:
The prices on Lamannia are not final – inspired by the Lamannia feedback, the Heroic Heart of Wood will be greatly reduced from the price displayed in the bartershop today. We’ll be looking at your additional feedback and how players play through sagas, and adjust the costs appropriately. We expect the average player to, upon reaching the minimum level requirement, spend additional hours to obtain a Heart of Wood – but never hundreds of hours. Since the heroic goal is 20, we are lowering the expectation of number of Epic quests needed to earn the heart. You will find that Iconic and Epic hearts cost more because you are expected to earn most of it during gameplay, if you approach earning commendations as your priority reward for Sagas. We are still working on these values, and next Lamannia update they will be lower (though still open to adjustment up/down based on feedback)

Saga’s have been intermittently off since they were introduced this summer. We approached this system with much consideration for delivering something this important, so it is not taken lightly, and we are focused on making sure that Sagas remain available for players who have already started engaging with them, even before the commendations were “the new thing”.

What are we solving?
• The saga system serves to spread out repeat questing and reward for playing a variety of content and more challenging content. It does not penalize for playing out of order and you can be on track for multiple sagas simultaneously.
• One thing, which players have already pointed out, is we are moving to a single game currency specifically for Hearts of Wood. New content, Eberron or FR, will not use Tokens of the Twelve, formerly “Epic Dungeon Tokens.” Originally intended as a hardcore option for the most Elite level cap builds – prior to U14 - the accessibility was made trivial for some when Epic levels were introduced. We left that unchecked and low priority for some time and there is an amazing disparity between players that can grind dozens in hours vs. the majority that takes days (20-30 hours) of gameplay to accomplish – we are balancing this system.
• Along those lines, for over a year DDO has not been adding to the Twelve tokens reward system, quite the opposite, and we will continue to deprecate this system over time. As this is being written, the design team is discussing a few approaches to how this will be done.


Feedback received:
As of this writing, Update 20 will not remove the Heart of Wood from the Twelve barter NPC. Next steps will be discussed at a later date, but eventually commendations will be the preferred method of exchange – ideally this is preferred by most players, today that is not the case and we are acting accordingly.
I do want to point out that the name of the True Druidic Heart of Wood is changing to Heroic Heart of Wood and all existing true-hearts will be updated to match.

As we work to get Reincarnation out to Lamannia, we will also make initial updates to the bartershops with Hearts of Wood.

I realize there are more topics to cover on this subject and we aim to address this here, on the Lamannia forums, during development.

I DONT WANT TO BE CONSTRICTED BY THE CONTRIVED NEED TO RUN SAGAS!!!

I run this game pretty much based on my entertainment for an evening. For TRing I can currently do so doing any of the old epic quests including challenges. I like those quests. I don't very much like the harper creap and the new xpack. I really regret buying it and soloing EGH is a pain for most part. That's why I don't very much do ALL OF THEM but I do some of them a lot.

What you guys fail to understand is that I don't feel limited getting tokens according to the old system. Shards drop on all of those quests. It allows me to farm the stuff I like and to avoid stuff I don't want or are to long to complete.

Sagas don't. Sagas forces me to do quests I don't want to do. And worse of all IF I want to do them I do so for favor or XP or even tomes, now in order to TR I have to run a massive amount of boring quests to pick only ONE THING. Valor.

This is as terrible as off destiny leveling and completely off turning to the point that I rather quit all that I've done over the years and find another game and company that cater to my entertainment needs and earn my money by releasing the kind of stuff that provide me a good time sink and a great value for my time spent.

This is a hamster wheel x 15. It's a terrible design.

Finally - BTC

Have you guys not learned one single thing from the whole Eveningstar challenge thing? If I spend x hours running stuff then why do you think you need to torture me with forcing me to go back to the time sink by running it x amount of time on another alt? For Pete sakes. Just listen for once.

[Djjinni]

Changes are a good first few steps to achieving something I believe, and I am very grateful for the communication (which has been lacking over this weekend.. and I *seriously* hope something is learned from this.


People don't want to be forced to run Sagas. That's is plain and simple. But if you insist on working towards that ( I feel it will detriment the game greatly, but you are the one steering), I have some more suitable tweaks below.


You've made your goals clear at least, moving to a single currency. This is a good plan, but you cannot remove a *very* key system (The Bound status of Comms vs old Tokens is a massive game-changer for a lot of people who routinely TR and most likely spend decent money on Pots/Boxes and other consumables.. is this a market you wish to negatively impact? :/)


In my mind, some very simple ideas to further this:


Make Commendations BtA. Absolutely vital as forcing them to be BtC is a massively negative change to the entire community. There is *no* advantage to players of them being Bound.
Adjust the numbers dropping from Sagas to a more realistic goal. It currently takes ~20 quests to earn a TR heart. Your final numbers should be relatively close to that.
Some base numbers in my head.. One Epic Elite Saga completion, 2 on EH, 3 on EN. This feels okay to myself, and others I speak with about the game. People *will* pay to upgrade from EH-> EE etc - don't worry about that.

Replace *all* sources of Tokens with small numbers of commendations. Not enough to make farming old Epics the most efficient way, but an *option*. Players like options :P

Add a conversion of Tokens to Commendations at the epic vendor. Make this worthwhile, but again not the most efficient way to get the Hearts (Via converted Comms) thus letting you bleed out the excess from recent events.



I don't see any real indication that any feedback has actually been responded too privately sadly, so I won't hold my breath for a response. But it's good to know that if the community rises up you at least notice.. now don't make it happen again? :/

[Antiguo]

The problem with tokens or comms dropping in every epic quest is that powergamers will just find the "best" comm/minute quest and farm the hell out of it. Now, I'm not saying that's wrong, but maybe that's not Turbine's design goal. They want people playing a wide variety of quests.... So they are using the saga system to promote that.. It could work, but they need more sagas... They have more time now to add a dozen more sagas into the mix by Update 21, and then it may not be too bad.

They definitely need to go BtA though... We should be able to farm comms on our epic characters, and not be forced to run epic content on a character that you just want to TR at 20.

Turbine has a design goal?

First notice, they are good at hiding it indeed.

[Ebondevil]

What are we solving?
• The saga system serves to spread out repeat questing and reward for playing a variety of content and more challenging content. It does not penalize for playing out of order and you can be on track for multiple sagas simultaneously.

Doesn't make them or the content they are part of any more enjoyable to run, or to track.

Frankly if you don't get enough of the commendations from one Epic saga for a Heroic Heart, then the reward is not worth the effort and farming 20 tokens will likely be a better choice for most.

• One thing, which players have already pointed out, is we are moving to a single game currency specifically for Hearts of Wood. New content, Eberron or FR, will not use Tokens of the Twelve, formerly “Epic Dungeon Tokens.” Originally intended as a hardcore option for the most Elite level cap builds – prior to U14 - the accessibility was made trivial for some when Epic levels were introduced. We left that unchecked and low priority for some time and there is an amazing disparity between players that can grind dozens in hours vs. the majority that takes days (20-30 hours) of gameplay to accomplish – we are balancing this system.
• Along those lines, for over a year DDO has not been adding to the Twelve tokens reward system, quite the opposite, and we will continue to deprecate this system over time. As this is being written, the design team is discussing a few approaches to how this will be done.

Fine you want to phase Tokens of the Twelve out, then give us something equally as enticing or better, not something worse. BtC is worse, much much worse!

Feedback received:
As of this writing, Update 20 will not remove the Heart of Wood from the Twelve barter NPC. Next steps will be discussed at a later date, but eventually commendations will be the preferred method of exchange – ideally this is preferred by most players, today that is not the case and we are acting accordingly.

Glad to hear it.

[BDog77]

Please consider fixing the Saga system (which was presented to us as something that was simply a way to increase the fun of running certain quests and totally optional, btw, I guess now not so optional) so that the character running the Saga actually gets credit for completing the quest when they do, in fact, complete it. As the Sagas exist now, you have to complete the quest ALIVE to get credit for it (why on earth the system knows your status when the quest has ended, I'm not sure). It would be pretty spiffy if y'all would try to actually get this system functioning correctly before you tie such an important part of the game to it.

Thanks

Oh, and btw, I think this is still going to cost y'all far far more then you can imagine. Think of all the lost revenue when this system is finally in place and people stop TRing, all those XP pots people used to buy....

[Vint]

Thanks Glin. I really like this. There is no bait/switch and we can still tr as we always have been able too. I agree with Turbine on this.

Turbine is introducing a NEW system and if people have a problem with the steep price Turbine wants to charge, oh well. Either the whales will bail out Turbine or Turbine will nose dive.

Turbine has listened to what players have had to say, and they have addressed it accordingly. For the other people that still feel like bi**hing and moaning, you should have realized that this game was going down this P2W avenue long ago. I do not agree with the P2W Turbine is promoting, but it has been evident for a long while.

[Qhualor]

1. people don't want to be forced to run sagas to earn Comms just to TR. make Comms drop in other epic places too. I assumed sagas were supposed to be intended as a bonus. I assumed wrong I guess if you want to TR.

2. Comms need to be BTA. I am not running epic sagas on a TR when I only care about the past life. its not going to be his/her final life and wont have the gear, power and skill. at 20, I want to have the option to heroic TR right away.

3. please consider the cost of Hearts of Wood. under the original proposal and what was posted by players that ran sagas on Lammania, it would take you to level 28 to earn enough Comms for trade in. please make the cost equivalent to what it is currently on Live of 20 tokens for a Heart of Wood. I cant fathom why the cost would be so much higher than 20 tokens worth. TRing is a big thing in DDO and I know Turbine makes a good profit from it. grind must equal reward.

4. sagas were a great idea I thought. people considered them a bonus and made it a little easier to get like minded players together to run quests that are not on the usual xp train (Crucible). please don't make them a requirement to run, but instead offer worthy rewards for completing these sagas. I think its one of the better business strategies to get people to buy content in a long while, but its too forced.

[B0ltdrag0n]

This is a start - but merely a start. You didn't address the commendations' bound status. Neither did you address just what alternatives would be available for those who want nothing to do with Sagas, or would rather have the other rewards they offer.

This is merely a start. We're watching like hawks now. While we will wait to see what comes, don't get complacent. The pressure is not off. Not by a longshot.

Hundreds of players' watchful eyes are on this update now.

I love how no one is fooled by this 'compromise' Good to you all.

This is all just speak that doesn't actually address any of the problems it says it is addressing. No one takes 30 hours to farm tokens for a TR. However the 'new system' certainly would make it take that long. Casuals are hurt as much if not more.

There have been suggestions to have current' quests that drop tokens drop commendations perhaps in equal amounts to now. Do that instead. Keep the BTA. If you are worried about the recent...issue with item generation....then just don't convert over the old ones. This isn't hard, at all. Except Turbine seems to WANT us to play the game one specific way and seems to be using behavior modification techniques to achieve it.

[gk_zone]

Last week we updated Lamannia......snip...Feedback received:The prices on Lamannia are not final – inspired by the Lamannia feedback, the Heroic Heart of Wood will be greatly reduced from the price displayed in the bartershop today. We’ll be looking at your additional feedback and how players play through sagas, and adjust the costs appropriately. We expect the average player to, upon reaching the minimum level requirement, spend additional hours to obtain a Heart of Wood – but never hundreds of hours. Since the heroic goal is 20, we are lowering the expectation of number of Epic quests needed to earn the heart. You will find that Iconic and Epic hearts cost more because you are expected to earn most of it during gameplay, if you approach earning commendations as your priority reward for Sagas. We are still working on these values, and next Lamannia update they will be lower (though still open to adjustment up/down based on feedback)

What was the feedback from Mournlands? I can't believe that this system passed through that server as is without receiving feedback that the initial proposal was just plain bad.

[LadyKoneko]

Last week we updated Lamannia with a new barter option in place for earning Hearts of Wood in-game. While we would have been better if the information I posting here was released at the same time, we received feedback from the community on the most concerning issues that come with both introducing a new system and changing an old. Below, I intend to address a few facts on the system, cover some of the design thoughts and also address concerns that were highlighted over the weekend.


When Update 20 goes out to live servers, there will be a new commendation available through select Epic Sagas that will allow players to barter for Hearts of Wood. Initially these Epic Sagas will offer an option to claim a Commendation of Valor; in time we intend to add additional methods to obtain “Commendations of Valor.”

(a) Saga: The End of Eberron (Epic)
(b) Saga: Perils of Cormyr (Epic)
(c) Saga: The Planeswalker’s Path (Epic)
(d) Saga: Menace of the Underdark (Epic)
(e) Saga: Honor of the Huntsilvers (Epic)
(f) Saga: In the Wastes of Gianthold (Epic)

A quest can overlap two or more sagas. In the situation where a quest is in multiple sagas, you will receive completion credit for each saga, for example, completing “A stay at the Inn” from the Update 16 Adventure Pack will reward credit in 3 Saga’s (b, c, e above). In this way, you can complete 5 sagas by playing 36 quests, and various combinations within that scenario if you prefer to skip some content.

The points you earn from completing a saga will vary based on the difficulty you completed them in. The number of commendations earned on an all elite run is 3-4 times that of an all normal run. In addition to difficulty, the higher level sagas tend to reward more commendations as well. Since the commendation is the currency, the important figure is the cost of the Hearts of Wood.

Feedback received:
The prices on Lamannia are not final – inspired by the Lamannia feedback, the Heroic Heart of Wood will be greatly reduced from the price displayed in the bartershop today. We’ll be looking at your additional feedback and how players play through sagas, and adjust the costs appropriately. We expect the average player to, upon reaching the minimum level requirement, spend additional hours to obtain a Heart of Wood – but never hundreds of hours. Since the heroic goal is 20, we are lowering the expectation of number of Epic quests needed to earn the heart. You will find that Iconic and Epic hearts cost more because you are expected to earn most of it during gameplay, if you approach earning commendations as your priority reward for Sagas. We are still working on these values, and next Lamannia update they will be lower (though still open to adjustment up/down based on feedback)

Saga’s have been intermittently off since they were introduced this summer. We approached this system with much consideration for delivering something this important, so it is not taken lightly, and we are focused on making sure that Sagas remain available for players who have already started engaging with them, even before the commendations were “the new thing”.

What are we solving?
• The saga system serves to spread out repeat questing and reward for playing a variety of content and more challenging content. It does not penalize for playing out of order and you can be on track for multiple sagas simultaneously.
• One thing, which players have already pointed out, is we are moving to a single game currency specifically for Hearts of Wood. New content, Eberron or FR, will not use Tokens of the Twelve, formerly “Epic Dungeon Tokens.” Originally intended as a hardcore option for the most Elite level cap builds – prior to U14 - the accessibility was made trivial for some when Epic levels were introduced. We left that unchecked and low priority for some time and there is an amazing disparity between players that can grind dozens in hours vs. the majority that takes days (20-30 hours) of gameplay to accomplish – we are balancing this system.
• Along those lines, for over a year DDO has not been adding to the Twelve tokens reward system, quite the opposite, and we will continue to deprecate this system over time. As this is being written, the design team is discussing a few approaches to how this will be done.


Feedback received:
As of this writing, Update 20 will not remove the Heart of Wood from the Twelve barter NPC. Next steps will be discussed at a later date, but eventually commendations will be the preferred method of exchange – ideally this is preferred by most players, today that is not the case and we are acting accordingly.
I do want to point out that the name of the True Druidic Heart of Wood is changing to Heroic Heart of Wood and all existing true-hearts will be updated to match.

As we work to get Reincarnation out to Lamannia, we will also make initial updates to the bartershops with Hearts of Wood.

I realize there are more topics to cover on this subject and we aim to address this here, on the Lamannia forums, during development.

Thank you for the grandfathering in.. however I must ask, how long till this system is decided to be out dated and phased out?
I mean tokens are leaving the game (by dev wishes not players) We already have so much **** going into our bags...
Every festivale/event has their own mat.
Green Steel
Alchemical
The madiness crafting
the lordmarch marks
dreaming dark upgrades... etc
coms of estar (cleric, war wiz, etc)
epic seals/sharda/scrolls.. not gonna get into that discussion tho


now you want to add more.. replacing a sysyem that has worked.. and makin them worthless.. (yes the augememts are still availble.. but SERIOUSLY 20 TOKENS to Bypass good DR.. no extra damage.. I see the power creep has not hit these.. oh wait.. beingg phased out).

But what I will bring up.. the crafting system.. it brought about such major lag.. and has never been adressed.. and you update all the random gen loot to have much better, congrats you phased out this system as well. I personally think some of the nicer random prefix/suffix stuff shoudnt be availble.. but now forification is availible beyond light/mod/heavy..

Congrats again on leaving things half finished...

/rant

But setiously.. how long till comms of heroism/valor/etc become the new tokens and get replaced?

[Engar1]

I really would like Turbine to go ahead and define their target market group. I keep having a tough time deciphering if I am still in it.

*Actually, I think I am it, but Turbine keeps thinking if they just dye their hair and drive the right sports car that they can surely replace me with some young thing. Then later they realize they are still balding and have a lousy personality so they get drunk, buy me something pretty and whisper how they always loved me...*