Earning Hearts of Wood - post U20

[oradafu]

Perhaps Turbine needs to start listening to the players. Has Turbine ever once actually solicited feedback from us on new items that we would like to see in the store and then actually used those results to create products that we would happily buy? It seems like a no-brainer to me.

Yes they have. We asked for Armor Dyes. We got Armor Kits that took over a year after soliciting the feedback. No one really liked the Armor Kits themselves or the price. That's why they came back again with Cosmetic Armors. We asked for something as simple as Armor Dye and they keeping making a more complex system than spimly turning the brown armor into black armor/red armor/green armor.

The braintrust at Turbine doesn't like simple. Proof can be found in that Epic Tokens would have continued to be used in all Epics after MOTU's release. Or Cannith crafting consists of two types (Greater and Lesser) 11 types of common mats, instead of just 11 mats or a flat 3 mats that consist of Arcane/Divine/Elemental. They simply don't like making things simple.

Not to mention the obsoleting or discontinuing existing systems. When's the last time stuff was added for Guilds, just as an example?

[Ytteri]

I'd like to suggest that you no longer make updates to lammania on Friday. The whole occupy thing and the bad press that's come with it probably could have been avoided i this update had been posted on a Monday morning so you'd be prepared to react to feedback quicker and you wouldn't have a whole weekend of people getting angry over no responses.

[Singular]

What are we solving?
• The saga system serves to spread out repeat questing and reward for playing a variety of content and more challenging content. It does not penalize for playing out of order and you can be on track for multiple sagas simultaneously.

First, thank you for communicating with the player base.

Second, I like sagas. They're an excellent way to earn XP, and to earn XP in off-destinies.

• One thing, which players have already pointed out, is we are moving to a single game currency specifically for Hearts of Wood. New content, Eberron or FR, will not use Tokens of the Twelve, formerly “Epic Dungeon Tokens.” Originally intended as a hardcore option for the most Elite level cap builds – prior to U14 - the accessibility was made trivial for some when Epic levels were introduced. We left that unchecked and low priority for some time and there is an amazing disparity between players that can grind dozens in hours vs. the majority that takes days (20-30 hours) of gameplay to accomplish – we are balancing this system.
• Along those lines, for over a year DDO has not been adding to the Twelve tokens reward system, quite the opposite, and we will continue to deprecate this system over time. As this is being written, the design team is discussing a few approaches to how this will be done.

Three comments:

1. Had you simply put tokens in every raid and token fragments in every epic quest, you might not be seeing the separation you are now seeing. Personally, I almost never run regular non-GH Eberron epics. So I end up running GH and Eveningstar epics, meaning that I don't get my tokens through regular gameplay. I have to purposefully farm token-giving quests or House C challenges to buy tokens if I want to TR. Because you designed the system to be a dying one, your design has created the disparity between players.

2. I hope that you greatly increase what "commendations of valor" can purchase. Augments and so on that tokens can buy would be nice. If you're going to kill the token system, please replace it entirely. Don't give us half a broken system and an incomplete new system.

3. Unless you have some f2p sagas, you will be separating the community. I would recommend at least one to give f2p players a taste, enticing them to purchase content.

Feedback received:
As of this writing, Update 20 will not remove the Heart of Wood from the Twelve barter NPC. Next steps will be discussed at a later date, but eventually commendations will be the preferred method of exchange – ideally this is preferred by most players, today that is not the case and we are acting accordingly.
I do want to point out that the name of the True Druidic Heart of Wood is changing to Heroic Heart of Wood and all existing true-hearts will be updated to match.

As we work to get Reincarnation out to Lamannia, we will also make initial updates to the bartershops with Hearts of Wood.

I realize there are more topics to cover on this subject and we aim to address this here, on the Lamannia forums, during development.

The above is excellent logic - if you can kill tokens by making commendations of valor (CoV) better, that's the way to go. As it is, I kind of hold a grudge against tokens anyways, since to get them I have to run quests I wouldn't otherwise run very often. So, at least for me and players like me, it won't take much for you to make CoV better.

Thank you for listening to player feedback - keep up the good work

[XiaNYdE]

We are still listening - even though I often see that people think we don't.

This is what i find hard to believe, especially where lama is concerned, if you guys and gals are listening why are reported exploits and issues being pushed to live over and over again?

[redspecter23]

Which probably means that we'll have to wait a year before they make the items BTA if they do decide to make them BTA, just like the Eveningstar Challenge mats took a year for some ungodly reason.

My thought is that all ingredients should be bta or unbound by default and made btc during design if there is a compelling game balancing reason why that should be the case. Turbine seems to do it in reverse. BtC for safety, then after a long trial period, maybe make it bta. If these need to stay BtC, I'd love to hear the reasoning. A lack of a reason would lead me to think they have no reason, therefore they should be bta.

Some ingredients that are justified in being btc include Shroud flagging pie pieces as it's a flagging component. Necro sigils as they are a flagging component. I'm sure there are more that are truly justified in being btc, but this is what I'm coming up with off the top of my head.

[lugoman]

What is the thinking behind making them btc? If someone wants to earn the comms on a sorc instead of a melee why not let them? If you think earning the comms on a sorc would be too easy than that is a problem with the quests themselves, not the new comm system.

[Systern]

As it is, I kind of hold a grudge against tokens anyways, since to get them I have to run quests I wouldn't otherwise run very often. So, at least for me and players like me, it won't take much for you to make CoV better.

That's funny. I resent Turbine for making the rift in the game separating old and new content, not the tokens.

[PermaBanned]

I see very little clearing up of that "great misunderstanding" you tweeted about, and a whole lot of "uh-oh" back peddling. So with emphasis added as needed, let's get started, shall we?

...we received feedback from the community on the most concerning issues that come with both introducing a new system and deleting an old.

First off, fify. You're not "changing" the old system of collecting Tokens towards Reincarnation, you're doing away with it.

When Update 20 goes out to live servers, there will be a new commendation available through select Epic Sagas that will allow players to barter for Hearts of Wood. Initially these Epic Sagas will offer an option to claim a Commendation of Valor; in time we intend to add additional methods to obtain “Commendations of Valor.”

•"In time" you intended to update crafting, instead you've nearly obsolesced it.
•Are these additional methods intended to be something other than Sagas? Are they going to return any the value you're stripping away from the Eberron Epics?

The number of commendations earned on an all elite run is 3-4 times that of an all normal run. In addition to difficulty, the higher level sagas tend to reward more commendations as well. Since the commendation is the currency, the important figure is the cost of the Hearts of Wood.

Completely agree on that part. So as the number of Commandations rewarded on the various Sagas per difficulty have been determined, mind sharing what they are? Knowing that will help greatly in determining a reasonable turn-in rate.

We expect the average player to, upon reaching the minimum level requirement, spend additional hours to obtain a Heart of Wood – but never hundreds of hours. Since the heroic goal is 20, we are lowering the expectation of number of Epic quests needed to earn the heart.

While on the surface this sounds good, let's be a little more honest and to the point: you specifically expect players to spend additional hours in post MotU expansion & update quests. Not just any Epic quests will do, because you've removed all the preMotU epics from qualifying towards earning Reincarnation. The only potential exception to this is Gianthold, which many players owned prior to it's epification. So you're not just trying to ensure players spend time in epics like they already had to in order to get their Tokens, you're trying to ensure the specifically spend time running your (poorly selling?) post MotU updates & expansions. It's clear, obvious and nobody's fooled by it.

You will find that Iconic and Epic hearts cost more because you are expected to earn most of it during gameplay, if you approach earning commendations as your priority reward for Sagas.

Finally, something that makes sense. Had you started out with ^this^ where characters Reincarnating from level cap had to obtain their Coms/Hearts from Epic Sagas, while leaving the Heroic hearts available for Tokens (as you've agreed to temporarily do below) you would've had a significantly less negative response to the whole plan.

Saga’s have been intermittently off since they were introduced this summer. We approached this system with much consideration for delivering something this important, so it is not taken lightly, and we are focused on making sure that Sagas remain available for players who have already started engaging with them, even before the commendations were “the new thing”.

It's nice to know that you'll put some extra effort into maintaining this seemingly ever less optional feature.

What are we solving?
• The saga system serves to spread out repeat questing and reward for playing a variety of content and more challenging content. It does not penalize for playing out of order and you can be on track for multiple sagas simultaneously.

The Saga system also eliminates the "play only the quests you like" convience we've all come to know and love.

•Before: You could earn Tokens towards reincarnation playing 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 or the whole (for exapmle) Carnival chain, depending on what you liked or didn't like.

•After: if you want to earn (not purchase) your Reincarnation, and you don't like or enjoy one or more quests in a Saga - sucks to be you. Your new options are as follows:
1) Buy what you don't like and play it.
-or-
2) Buy VIP so you can skip one quest you don't like but still had to buy.
-or-
3) Buy A$tral $hard$ so you can skip one or more of the quests you didn't like but still had to buy.
-or-
4) Just buy your Reincarnation subverting the whole "we want you to spend time playing Epics" concept.
Anyone else notice the above trend?

What are we solving?
• One thing, which players have already pointed out, is we are moving to a single game currency specifically for Hearts of Wood. New content, Eberron or FR, will not use Tokens of the Twelve, formerly “Epic Dungeon Tokens.” Originally intended as a hardcore option for the most Elite level cap builds – prior to U14 - the accessibility was made trivial for some when Epic levels were introduced. We left that unchecked and low priority for some time and there is an amazing disparity between players that can grind dozens in hours vs. the majority that takes days (20-30 hours) of gameplay to accomplish – we are balancing this system.

No, you are not balancing it at all. Power gamers will still squash top level content on Epic Hard/Elite settings to earn Coms significantly faster than the majority that takes significantly longer on lower difficulties. As you said above "an all Elite run will grant 3-4 times as many Commendations as an all Normal run." So the disparity has not been balanced away at all, and possibly even expanded!

What are we solving?
• Along those lines, for over a year DDO has not been adding to the Twelve tokens reward system, quite the opposite, and we will continue to deprecate this system over time. As this is being written, the design team is discussing a few approaches to how this will be done.

Thank you for your honesty. Since the loot is both extremely outdated and extremely hard to get, and as Tokens are being phased out completely, will you be doing anything to return some worth to the highly devalued Eberron Epics? Or are they intended to remain an otherwise completely fruitless time filler while you gain the Epic XP/levels needed to start spending time playing Epic Sagas? Remember: you can't even step foot in Epic Hard Gianthold quests (among others ie Storm Horns) under level 24.

What are we solving?

...still seems to be a question unanswered.

As of this writing, Update 20 will not remove the Heart of Wood from the Twelve barter NPC. Next steps will be discussed at a later date, but eventually commendations will be the preferred method of exchange – ideally this is preferred by most players, today that is not the case and we are acting accordingly.

"Preferred" implies choice, like: do you prefer Chocolate or Vanilla? I believe what you meant to say was "Eventually Commendations will be the only method of exchange."

While I do look forward to see how this all develops and unfolds, your motivations are transeperrant and methods are heavy handed. While I'm sure we all appreciate the temporary bandaid of continuing to allow the use of Tokens for Heroic hearts beyond U20, the fact that it's temporary will not sit well unless/until the other issues (ie BTC vs BTA) are worked out.

[maddmatt70]

Wow Turbine really is not spending much money on DDO. The real problem with condemnations is that there are not enough ways to get them. Not enough Sagas and not enough additional ways to get those condemnations. Instead of coming up with more ways to get condemnations or more sagas or other options Turbine can not come up with anything other then we need more time. Well 2 new quests in a whopping 6 months and no solution to this problem means this game is dying and dead.

[Meat-Head]

Now, I'm not saying that's wrong, but maybe that's not Turbine's design goal. They want people playing a wide variety of quests.... So they are using the saga system to promote that...

Why are they trying to push a certain way to play the game? We want variety, yes. But we want OUR variety.

Sagas are a forced kind of variety that THEY chose. Some days I want to grind one quest 5-10 times. Sometimes I want to play 10 different quests once.

Why would you want to force me into one of those?

#makesnosense

[Meat-Head]

this game is dying and dead.

Sadly, even at peak times now there are less than 1000 people per server. Often it's half that. Scary/sad.

This isn't helping...

[Daine]

Glin, I really wish you would understand that the player base doesn't see a problem with the token system and thus no need for a solution.

The developers and yourself may see a problem and a need for a solution but you're not producing a game for you and the devs to play together on a quiet Friday night, you're producing it for us, the player-base, many of which have been paying to play for over seven years.

STOP STUFFING AROUND SOLVING PROBLEMS THAT DON'T EXIST AND INSTEAD FIX THE DAMNED BUGS AND GIVE US NEW CONTENT TO RUN.

[maddmatt70]

Sadly, even at peak times now there are less than 1000 people per server. Often it's half that. Scary/sad.

This isn't helping...

This whole thread was a bad in decision. Should have said something general and vague like we are considering multiple options and then in a later Lammania build tried a real solution. The thing is there is not a big rush to get this update 20 out other then epic reincarnation is probably a good thing for retaining some people, but overall I would say not to rush this update. Glin is definitely a new producer - he needs help with messaging for sure.

[Thumbed_Servant]

tokens stay until commendations are fully implemented, that's the best news to date on the matter. There's no reason to deprecate any system until its replacement is fully ready to go.



Or, conversely, i could say "the saga system serves to completely deprecate non-related quests, and forces you to run certain select content you don't enjoy, to get the rewards from content you do enjoy".

You're looking at it with entirely the wrong metric. You shouldn't measure how many people are completing sagas, compare that to some a priori expectation of how much sagas should be run, and then force people to run sagas by linking something they want (tring) to it.

Your philosophy regarding currency should be that everything has the potential to grant currency rewards, based on the time and difficulty of each individual accomplishment. You should be able to earn currency however you enjoy playing the game - running the same quest, running different quests, challenges, adventure zones, etc. That way, everyone can earn the same rewards by having fun, rather than by "grinding" whatever arbitrary pathway you lay out.

If comms are your new universal currency, put them in saga rewards. Put them in quest rewards. Put them in chests. Make them buyable with challenge mats and other barter currencies. Everything you "do" in game, other than economic activity like trading/crafting, should advance you towards "final character status" rewards like tring.

^ this ^

[Zzevel]

Note - I hate Sagas... but I hate that you are making so many things obsolete in the process of changing things.. AGAIN!

Step 1 - Update ALL old NAMED items to new standards, make items from old packs viable again...
Step 2 - Implement new recipes to use Tokens and frags to upgrade old versions of named items to the new version of item
Step 3 - Sell Tokens and Frags in store (you make money or we can farm them in the packs we buy, if we want)
Step 4 - Profit because now we have a use for our tokens and frags other than Wood and you can make money off lazy people

[ComicRelief]

Last week we updated Lamannia with a new barter option in place for earning Hearts of Wood in-game. *snip*

First and foremost - Thank-you for the clarifying post.
Second - Thank-you for reconsidering the removal of THoW from the 12 with U20 launch. While it seems they are still destined to go the way of the do-do, delaying their demise at this time is, I think, the right call.

That said, I would like to focus on your first sentence, quoted above. Specifically the word "option". How can it be an "option" if it is *the* only way to earn something in-game? Unless, of course, you are referring to the only other "option" – that of buying THoW from the DDO store. Which is OK. But then, the use of "in-game" is a little misleading. IMO, much of the backlash of the new barter system was not the introduction of yet another "currency" (“Commendations of Valor” [CoV]) {Have you not seen Geoff Hanna's post [http://www.gamergeoff.com/universal-...retty-please/] about the number of 'in-game currencies'?}, but the *removal* of THoW from being purchased with “Tokens of the Twelve” (12T). That and the apparent 'change' of binding from BtA (12T) to BtC (CoV).

Did we learn nothing from “Euphonia's Challenge”? When first released, the loot was (we were told) mistakenly made BtA and not BtC – and then when it was to be 'corrected' and all loot made BtC, there was another uprising – much like this one. While I agree that certain things should be BtC (and perhaps even many epic things), does “everything” have to be? And if the answer turns out to be “yes”, then for crying out loud *do something* about the lack of BtC storage space!

Of course, we're told that doing something about the BtC storage space (i.e personal bank space, not *shared* bank space) is “not technically possible, at this time” (for various reasons). So if it's not technically possible, why does the “slow march” to making “everything” BtC continue? {Granted, that's probably an exaggeration, but it often doesn't feel like it.}

But I digress...

And now, instead of just being able to run any epic content (OK, OK – 12T and their fragments only dropped in Eberron epics...), you must now run complete sagas to get the CoV. Is that an “option”? It seems to me to be more restrictive – as in fewer options. Not to mention that 12T fragments were given *in addition to* other loot; CoV as a saga end reward 'option' would be “instead of”, not “in addition to”. {Granted, that's a little like comparing apples-to-oranges, but just a little.}

Someone crunched some numbers using some of the initial Lama rates and figured it would take something on the order of 53 complete saga runs to get enough CoV to get an HTHoW; and seeing as how they said the 'shortest' saga contains 10 quests that would be 530 epic quests. I've been playing for just over 3 years now and I doubt that totaling all my quests from all my toons that I have even come close to running 530 quests – and that's not “epic” quests, that is “all sum total of quests, including Korthos” quests. {Thankfully, you have clarified that the numbers will be drastically lowered – one can only hope that your definition of “drastic” is at least somewhere around where mine is....}

Look – I realize that you guys can't tell us every little reason for every proposed change and the need to keep some (OK – many) things completely secret, but even this little peek at just hinting about some of the “whys” have done a lot to smooth out some ruffled feathers. {As far as I'm concerened, at least.}

This is a lesson that was learned before, but it seems to keep being forgotten: you don't need to tell us every little thing, but you really *do* need to talk to us. Whatever happened to “MajorMal's End of the Week Updates”? Did we like everything he had to tell us? No. Did we complain? Yes – some more than others. But that's going to happen anyway and at least when we did get those updates, we felt that we were at least part of the discussion. {At least I did – guess I can't really speak for anyone else. Well, I *could*, but...} Did he tell us everything? Not even close – and we knew that and that's OK. At least *someone* in some type of 'authority' (no offense, Tolero and Cordovan) was talking to us on a regular basis. But alas! That seems to have gone away too – maybe MM is just too busy to talk to us anymore (but that is not the most prevalent supposition in the for a [sorry, “forums”])...

I seemed to have digressed again...

Honestly, I've completely forgotten where my train of thought was running. Guess that – and the length of this post – means it's time to go.

{You know, this “getting old” thing really sucks, but it does beat the alternative. I guess.}

[Brendael]

We expect the average player to, upon reaching the minimum level requirement, spend additional hours to obtain a Heart of Wood...New content, Eberron or FR, will not use Tokens of the Twelve, formerly “Epic Dungeon Tokens.” Originally intended as a hardcore option for the most Elite level cap builds – prior to U14 - the accessibility was made trivial for some when Epic levels were introduced. We left that unchecked and low priority for some time and there is an amazing disparity between players that can grind dozens in hours vs. the majority that takes days (20-30 hours) of gameplay to accomplish – we are balancing this system.

This seems a bit contradictory to me. You want the average player to take more time to TR, but you are concerned about the disparity between hardcore players and average players. How does penalizing the average player balance out the system? It is the average player who doesn't get the contiguous playing time with a group to finish a saga. The hardcore player thinks nothing of playing for 4 hours straight. The average player rarely gets the time to do this. You are just going to make the gulf between hardcore and casual bigger.

As it stands as a casual player I can pick up random PUGs for content and earn tokens. It may take me weeks to get those tokens but I will eventually get them and have fun in the process. I'll rarely have the opportunity to find a PUG running a particular quest I need to complete a saga.

As a more casual player TR'ing is something I can aspire to. I know it will take a while but the goal is always within reach. You are now taking that goal and adding massive grind to make it something so far out of reach that I can no longer aspire to it. With my goal out of reach, why would I keep playing the game?

[Antheal]

Whatever happened to “MajorMal's End of the Week Updates”? Did we like everything he had to tell us? No. Did we complain? Yes – some more than others. But that's going to happen anyway and at least when we did get those updates, we felt that we were at least part of the discussion. {At least I did – guess I can't really speak for anyone else. Well, I *could*, but...} Did he tell us everything? Not even close – and we knew that and that's OK. At least *someone* in some type of 'authority' (no offense, Tolero and Cordovan) was talking to us on a regular basis. But alas! That seems to have gone away too – maybe MM is just too busy to talk to us anymore (but that is not the most prevalent supposition in the for a [sorry, “forums”])...

I don't think MM works for turbine anymore.

[HernandoCortez]

barf.
take your sagas else where do not want them.
take your new bound to character inventory clutter else where, to much ingredients in the game already.
have a new system? great do not trash everything that came before it.
and lastly please hire someone to communicate with whats left of your customers.

so to sum it up making me run sagas to tr is a deal breaker.
bound to character inventory clutter is a deal breaker.
want me to run the new stuff? make it fun, or rewarding or both, can't do it without destroying old content? then i give up.

Bravo!
My thought exactly.

Turbine, your playerbase is running out of patience with your lack of communication and respect. Keep on getting those brilliant ideas and you'll bury DDO, GLenius.

[FranOhmsford]

(a) Saga: The End of Eberron (Epic)
(b) Saga: Perils of Cormyr (Epic)
(c) Saga: The Planeswalker’s Path (Epic)
(d) Saga: Menace of the Underdark (Epic)
(e) Saga: Honor of the Huntsilvers (Epic)
(f) Saga: In the Wastes of Gianthold (Epic)

A) Lvl 21-23 Quests on Normal - To Complete All on Elite = Min Lvl 23 before even thinking about it!
B) Lvl 21-27 = Lol!
C) This one's not on DDOWiki for some reason.
D) Lvl 21-23 Quests on Normal - To Complete All on Elite = Min Lvl 23 before even thinking about it!
E) Lvl 23-27 = Epic Fail!
F) Lvl 24 on Normal - Come on Devs this is Ridiculous to earn an Heroic TR!

I can't answer on a change for bind type. Please be patient for the answer.

Either make Comms of Valor BtACCOUNT
AND
Allow ONE Token of the Twelve to be Traded in for a SIGNIFICANT Number of Comms. {Until ALL Tokens are used up}.

OR

Provide us with an ACTUAL way of gaining Comms from HEROIC SAGAS!

OTHERWISE I Will NOT Buy another Heart from the DDOStore!
Which basically means I will NOT be TRing any more of my MANY Alts and I will eventually simply stop playing DDO as you will have made it impossible for me to advance my characters!

STOP Pandering to the Hardcore Gamers and START thinking about those of us who've put the time and effort into this game {myself having played virtually every single day since I first found DDO back in Mid 2010! - And apart from being on these forums you're looking at 8hrs + per day IN-GAME!}


Oh and Lastly - I currently use Sagas to FINALLY Earn useful amounts of Guild Renown!
Comms SHOULD be an ADDITIONAL REWARD for Running Sagas NOT a Replacement Reward!

I do NOT want to be having to make the choice between TRing and Gaining Guild Renown! {I don't give a Monkey's about the XP Reward or the Skill Tomes and I won't take Comms over Guild Renown EVER!}.