Earning Hearts of Wood - post U20

[SeaWolf925]

Besides tracking Saga progress the way it is now is not only useless but stupid.

[Ebondevil]

Something else to consider is the perceived value of a True (Heroic) Heart of wood, in comparison to other items, and how much it and they are sold for in store.

So take 1 Item that is available from both Lahar in the Twelve, and From a TP Purchase in the store: Sapphire of Heavy Fortification

It should be noted that I bought one of these with tokens before the augment pass.

The Sapphire is worth 20 Tokens, the True Heart is worth 20 tokens, this means that the items have an equivalent in game value.

The Sapphire is worth 75 TP.

If the Sapphire and the heart have the same in game value, that generally means the Heart is worth 75 TP.

Factor in the various different Augments though and you're probably looking at a range of 50-200 TP though.

[Nédime]

Good call.

There are many great ideas on these forums to improve DDO. However that is not really the main goal of Turbine, it is a business after all so lets talk profits.

There are pushy ways to do business which may compel customers to make purchases but leave a negative impact on them. DDO is heading in that direction. It is really unnecessary as you have here a wonderful system already in place which could practically sell itself and become a much more popular game. Would you rather not have players spending money in excitement for what they are getting then bitterness for what they have to get?

There are many features we have been begging to buy. Monster Manuals, more cosmetics, more storage, reagent bags, races, classes, housing, sex change, quests, RAIDS. These are just a few off the top of my head. If you would sell us what we want you wouldn't have to trick us into buying what we don't.

DDO is one of the most unique and complex games I have played. The character creation system alone is the main draw for many people. Sadly most gamers have never heard of this game. Why do you not (modestly) advertise? Something simple and cheap, marketing yourself as the complex mmo or the most customizable or unique or action based combat. Any of these marketing points would be a big draw for people looking for such a game. Flaunt the strengths DDO has. There is a real niche market there for this type of game and DDO is the only place to find it.

Stimulate the sales of adventure packs;

While Shadowfell Conspiracy is very beautiful with great artwork and voice acting it is sadly not enough.
Most People buy packs for 2 reasons, loot and xp. Both of witch cost you NOTHING to increase. Why don't you?

What makes Adventure packs desirable;

XP and Loot

There is little to say about xp other than it should be increased if you want to make your adventure packs more enticing. If the new packs had something like von3 you would find Eveningstar much less of a ghost town.

Loot and how it affects the sales of adventure packs;

You have utterly destroyed the once brilliant and esteemed random loot system for no apparent reason. Not only is getting the same 4 suffixes a giant step backwards from what we knew and loved, the auction house is flooded with cheap random items that outclass most of the highest level named items. There goes any incentive to buy adventures for loot. Poor XP and meager loot have successfully rendered your new shiny expansion insignificant and undesirable regardless of it's quality.

Revert random loot to how it used to be when MOTU launched. It was perfect. We had a plethora of unique and exciting effects, we had composed weapon affixes, we had clickies. It was fun, but now loot is boring and therefor the game is boring. Everything we loot now is the same; retributive, doublestrike, ghostbane, deadly or accuracy. We have yet to hear any dev comment as to why you would butcher such a core aspect of this game. Revert random loot and scale it to be slightly less powerful then named loot of the same level. You will once again incentivise people to buy adventures for the sexy named loot. That is one of the biggest draws to mmos, I cannot stress that enough. People love named loot in these games.

Regarding the old packs, they were once the endgame epics. People would stay at 20, raid and farm for epic ingredients and all was wonderful. With the increase in level cap, 20 is nothing more than a pit stop. Those once sought after epic named items are nothing more then level 20 suboptimal named loot. Why do we still need to spend a year grinding for these ingredients when we are getting better random loot, regardless of how boring it is? If the old epic items dropped completed (like every other named item) it would add some value to these old packs. Another thing that made those packs attractive is the ability to work towards your reincarnation which is also being removed, further decreasing their value.

Reincarnation

A very tricky feature to quantify. On one hand its current popularity is mainly due to the lack of an endgame, on the other it is ingenious, innovative and unique to DDO. Actually one of the most brilliant features in the genre.

Hearts of wood however remind me of sigils. They were removed because they were a roadblock to player retention. They created a false obstacle in front of players limiting the amount of time they could spend in the game. Hearts are now serving this purpose.

Since the current loot mess has rendered raids quite pointless and the high level quests offering very little, there is nothing else to do at endgame currently which is only exacerbating the importance of reincarnating.
Anything done to make the reincarnation process more difficult is going to limit the amount of time players remain customers.

Instead you have chosen to monetize this feature with a very unpopular saga system. A system designed to sell not only hearts but adventure packs in a very underhanded manner. The community knows this, and the disdain is going to drive even more away. If the above insights about adventure packs were implemented The sales of all adventures would rise and there would be no cause to create such an unpopular system, the players would not hold resentment but respect and elation.

[memloch]

We were asked to deliver the why of some of our concerns. Warning “Wall of text”. Below is some of the why's I have:

Comms tied to Sagas:

This is not acceptable because it forces you to play quests that you do not want to play. It also forces you to buy packs (I am VIP) that you may have no interest in at all. The number of sagas is too small. Completely eliminates the majority of the Eberron content. For those that like to TR makes all other saga rewards unattainable.

BTC:

This is not acceptable because it limits what you can do and the choices that you have. I have been working on a completionist toon that just keeps tr'ing at 20. The new system will not allow this. Why would you take away something that the player base does and enjoys?

My biggest concerns:

I really do not understand the need to create newer systems to replace other working systems. The epic tokens was and is a great system that should just have been implemented in all Epic quests. It would allow ALL content to be run and increase choices for ALL types of players. Perhaps if you can explain the reason behind that choice it would go a long way to helping us to understand it.

As a business person I understand the need to increase revenue. Many of your customers have laid out clearly what we, as a customer base want to purchase. The TR mechanic leads to many other sales of pots and boxes and other questing items. There should not be a huge barrier to this mechanic.

What I would like to see:

Get us to lvl cap 30 ASAP. Stop building new systems and focus on content and bug fixes. Do not abandon Eberron. Complete many of the projects that have been started but never completed. Those are the systems to focus on.

What I like:

Your team has built an amazing game which I really enjoy playing. I think you have all the systems in place that are needed to start selling it to a larger audience. The EDs, and enhancements are a great selling point. Multiclassing and combat are one of the best in your market.

In closing:

Take a moment to reflect on what you have built and start to focus on the things that will bring in Income (that we say, we would pay for) so you and I can continue to enjoy this game!

[ReaperAlexEU]

another how i play post:

i tend to focus on one character for a period of time to achieve some long term goals then move on to the next character i want to build up. quite often this will involve taking a first life to cap, then grinding out some gear on another char, fleshing out an epic destiny on a 3rd then doing a review to see what i want to work on next.

i tend to spend most of my time in PUGs, i love the random element it brings to the game, from the facerolling through a quest in a TR train to fighting for my life in a train wreck. i also spend a lot of time in heroic quests as i like playing a variety of builds so there is always a new one i want to push towards lvl20

for my own time with wings on i only have 2 TR characters, one is part of a static group the other i've just got back to lvl20. both hearts have come from my free VIP points. so these changes don't really affect my characters

they do however affect me. i love to PUG, and when i do i meet a lot of wings. i have fun with people who are lapping me in the TR circle when i bump into them. i don't want to see such players get the shaft

the TR endgame as it stands has turned into a large portion of the playerbase i PUG with. not because i put up elitist groups, i tend to go with "taking first 5 to click join" which does attract a lot of vets, but also gets the newbies too. if the TR train is broken my groups won't fill as fast.

[Steiner-Davion]

My personal experience with MMO's started when I was stationed in Japan with the Navy. I first tried GW, but the PvP centric nature of the game and limited character customization was not for me.

Then I stumbled upon DDO during its Open Beta Period in the winter of 2005. And I was hooked before I even logged in for the first time. DDO was everything I wanted in an MMO and computer game. It had near total character customization, and interesting setting, and probably 2 of the most important things that distinguished it from everyone WOW clone and MMO on the market:

• Active Combat
• Custom Quests (none of this go out and kill X numbers of Y and bring back W of Z things that drop from Y, cookie cutter quests. In most other MMOs practically every quest is a slight variation on the theme of Kill X of Y and bring back some of Z.

Once I began to play DDO, the community in game is what then made the game eventhat much more fun. Especially withh its built in Voicechat.

SinceDecember 2005, I have been what I dub a Casual Power Gamer. I don't get a lot of play time, but when I do, Ilike to move fast (for the most part) and quickly advance my character. I don't have a lot of top end Gear, but I have learned to more than make do with the gear I do have and can hold my own with my friends who are geared to the max.

Over the last couple of years, my play time has shrunk for the most part, due to starting a family. But now and then I will have periods (some longer than others) where I will be able to play a lot (ie when traveling for work, I get to play a lot instead of sitting at the hotel bar). So now I play usually once a week with my Static Group, comprised of the same 6 people every week, playing and advancing the same 6 characters every week. We do not pug out raids, and we hate grinding. We will play through everything once to completion. And yes, some quests take a couple of tries to figure out, as we like to challenge ourselves when possible. We are notuber elite geared out characters and don't use the AH or SE, not that we could afford to anyway.

All that being said this change is not going over well.

• We only play for 3-4 hours 1 night a week. So if we wanted to use this system we would be loosing out on a lot of the Optional awards that the (as sold to the community when they were introduced) OPTIONAL SAGAS offered, on the off chance we may someday want to use these Commendations of Valor. If we ever wanted to TR it would tke us over 1 year of playtime (based upon our 1 night a week for 4 hours) to collect enough.
• The Sagas are too hard to keep track of. And we are 6 smart, educated, veteran players. The SAGA UI is non-exisitant. To say that it is there is even anythingcalled a UI for it, is an insult to every horrible UI design out there. Make an easy to use and understand Saga UI.
  

  • either make Sagas an entry like any other areas (Harbor, Marketplace, Vale, Eveningstar), and have seperate Explorer Point-esque entries for each Saga, or
  • Add a second panel to the Adventure log, called "SAGAS" and have a seperate entry for every Saga in the game here. Each entry would list every quest in the Saga and a simple Status: X Quest, if you haven't completed thequest yet; or (Completed) X quest, if you have completed it. Then by Clicking on the name of the quest it would either tell you you do not have it bestowed yet (and it would tell you where and who to talk to to get it) or it would open the appropriate entry in your regular Quest Log.

• with the exception of a few quests and the wilderness areas (except Wheelon) most of the Content released since MotU has been boring and uninspired. So much so that last night when we realized we had finished every quest with the exception of CitW (we can't complete the raid yet with our 6-man group), we decided to go back to our baby characters and pick up where we left them of at level 12 and resume playing Ebberron content.

[Drwaz99]

Twitter info:

Erik DDO ft ProdGlin ?@producerglin 1h

Making good progress on a revises plan. More to come as the team crunches data and works it into next years plans as well.

Erik DDO ft ProdGlin ?@producerglin 1h

Next weeks #Lamannia update should put us all back in a #happyplace. This week we are hoping to switch on the new reincarnate UI.

[Propane]

There's active discussion here at Turbine about the binding status of Commendations of Valor.

This is what we are tentatively moving to for the next Lamannia preview (which is decided days ahead of time, so the conversation is likely to keep moving and Lamannia will be out of date by then):

Heroic True Heart of Wood: Costs 250 Commendations of Valor
Binds to Character on Acquire

This is not what we intend to ship with. However, we need to decide on whether to lower the cost should or change the Commendations to be Bind to Account instead of Character. (Or potentially both, as the exact cost is still under discussion, but for simplicity I'm pretending it's one or the other right now.)

If the Commendations are BtA, we expect that most Commendations will be farmed by level-cap characters and passed to other characters, and that they will be earned much faster than if the Commendations are BtC and earned by lower level characters. We also believe there are legitimate reasons for both choices and why one or the other is better for gameplay or fun, many of which have been expressed by various players recently.

We're of course happy to hear feedback on all aspects of Reincarnation or other upcoming changes, but if you have specific thoughts on whether you'd prefer BtA Commendations or a cheaper price for Heroic True Hearts of Wood, please let us know here in this thread!

Hay peps-

I was pondering a simple Barter Box System to help with the BTC / BTA issues.
The total number needed is a separate issue.

Commendations of Valor = 2 Large Shard of Valor = 4 Small Shard of Valor

Commendations of Valor – Bound to Character
Large Shard of Valor – Bound to Account
Small Shard of Valor – Unbound

Freely trade in the box – both directions – all three types in game – can add them to end rewards, daily rolls, etc…

The character that gets the CoV will get the most benefit-
It can be broken down and traded to an alt – at a cost
It can be sold / AH / traded to others – at a cost

[ReaperAlexEU]

Twitter info:

thanks for the post.

[erethizon]

If the Commendations are BtA, we expect that most Commendations will be farmed by level-cap characters and passed to other characters, and that they will be earned much faster than if the Commendations are BtC and earned by lower level characters. We also believe there are legitimate reasons for both choices and why one or the other is better for gameplay or fun, many of which have been expressed by various players recently.

We're of course happy to hear feedback on all aspects of Reincarnation or other upcoming changes, but if you have specific thoughts on whether you'd prefer BtA Commendations or a cheaper price for Heroic True Hearts of Wood, please let us know here in this thread!

If I have to choose I would much rather have a lower cost and have them BtC than a higher cost and be BtA. I won't be collecting my comms on a level capped character with great gear and having to get more of them just because other people are using alts is total BS. Rather than choosing one or the other of those options consider having two rewards you can choose from. You could get a certain amount of BtC comms or you could get a smaller amount of BtA comms. This way people that are farming for an alt will have to do more runs (which is what you seem to want) while people that are farming for the same character (and probably will not be level capped in great gear) will get more comms and have to do fewer runs.

[Qhualor]

Twitter info:

I would like to see this response on the forums. Maybe another update tonight? Get me off this bridge

[Drwaz99]

Here's an argument on why BTA in general is vastly superior to BTC:

I just spent a couple hours in the Mabar Event on my Lvl 28 Sorc. Got in the the summoning chamber and it was so laggy both times it was almost an immediate fail. (That's not the point of the post)

I've read that many people are having much better luck with lower level toons so I thought that I might give some of my TR's and lower toons a shot - then I remember the signets are BTC. Well, the items I need are for my Sorc, who, depending on how the reincarnation thing plays out, might become a PM and I would like a couple of robes to wear throughout his life. I also would like to give me Sorc - who's my main, some tomes.

But with the unplayable lag and seeing nothing has changed since the preview, I just can't run Mabar on the toon who needs it. But I could run it if the ingredients were BTA (and maybe limited to a certain number a day to prevent people going nuts). But they are not, so I can't do Mabar.

Just another nail.. BTA > BTC

[Vargouille]

Here's some things that are up for discussion here at Turbine. We're trying to come up with more public proposals Soon(tm).

* Binding of Commendations of Valor
* Binding of Hearts of Wood (if these are BtA and the Commendations are BtC, you can still farm with an alternate character. And we can still re-use Commendations of Valor in the future for other items that we feel should be BtC, or use for upgrading BtC loot, instead of adding an additional new ingredient type in the future and an additional way to get that new ingredient. This is not a done deal in any case, as this also means you cannot combine ingredients from alternate characters.)
* Additional ways to earn Commendations of Valor besides Sagas, for U20.
* Whether or not Sagas earn Commendations of Valor at all.
* Whether or not the methods for earning Heroic True Hearts of Wood are the same as the methods for earning Epic Hearts of Wood or Iconic True Hearts of Wood.
* Whether or not we phase out Tokens of the Twelve at any point.
* Whether or not we phase out trading in Tokens of the Twelve for Heroic True Hearts of Wood at any point (probably not).
* What content you can use to earn various Hearts of Wood.


We're also trying to make sure that today's Lamannia release showing off other aspects of Reincarnation goes smoothly and that you guys have what you need in order to give good feedback.

[Drwaz99]

Here's some things that are up for discussion here at Turbine. We're trying to come up with more public proposals Soon(tm).
* Binding of Commendations of Valor
* Binding of Hearts of Wood (if these are BtA and the Commendations are BtC, you can still farm with an alternate character. And we can still re-use Commendations of Valor in the future for other items that we feel should be BtC, or use for upgrading BtC loot, instead of adding an additional new ingredient type in the future and an additional way to get that new ingredient. This is not a done deal in any case, as this also means you cannot combine ingredients from alternate characters.)
* Additional ways to earn Commendations of Valor besides Sagas, for U20.
* Whether or not Sagas earn Commendations of Valor at all.
* Whether or not the methods for earning Heroic True Hearts of Wood are the same as the methods for earning Epic Hearts of Wood or Iconic True Hearts of Wood.
* Whether or not we phase out Tokens of the Twelve at any point.
* Whether or not we phase out trading in Tokens of the Twelve for Heroic True Hearts of Wood at any point (probably not).
* What content you can use to earn various Hearts of Wood.


We're also trying to make sure that today's Lamannia release showing off other aspects of Reincarnation goes smoothly and that you guys have what you need in order to give good feedback.

Many thanks! This is perfect! We don't need perfect answers and the mere fact that it's not being ignored and is showing progress is more than enough.

(tho on a personal note, pls ease up on the SOON stuff. You guys burned us pretty good on that before. Kinda in bad taste now)

[Satyriasys]

I have posted a few times in this thread and may have come off snarky or offensive and I apologize. It is just frustrating when we are asked for feedback and it seems to be ignored, misunderstood or not taken seriously. Your initial proposal was quite unrealistic and looked like a heavy handed money grab which also added to the frustration.

That said the idea of sagas for hearts have sort of grown on me, if we have enough sagas . All epic quests should be part of a saga so players can choose the content they enjoy and find the corresponding saga. It would also be a shame to exclude certain older packs from sagas as it would render them obsolete, that would be bad.

Thank you for being more communicative. We don't necessarily need constant updates on revised numbers but just a little post now and then letting us know that we are on the same page.

[LucidLTS]

So let me add my voice to the chorus

1) We want more flexibility not less

2) We want less grind, not more

3) We don't want you to dictate how we play the game, EVER

4) You have screwed up so much, so badly, so recently, that the trust is gone. "Trust us, we will come up with a decent system when we go live" will not work this time. You need to give us the full details BEFORE YOU CHANGE ANYTHING. Put tokens back in whatever you took them out of (Spinner?) and leave them there at the former rate until this is worked out and the plan signed off on by your customers.

5) When you start the new method, leave the old method COMPLETELY intact and running in parallel with the new system for 6 months to make sure the new system is running as well as you think it is. Provide a lossless bi-directional trade for old/new currency.

The above is required, below are some suggestions

Do not contribute to inventory stress. Make your new currency like Astral Shards, they take up no space and are account wide. That also lets you make separate currencies for Heroic and Epic TRs, so you don't have to worry that epics can earn HHoW for lowbie alts in a couple of hours but take a full time job to earn an Epic.

Do not require special adventure packs or put a grind penalty on packs people used to use. We bought those packs with their token production as a selling point.

BTA not BTC.

Don't plan this with only power gamer/serial TR in mind. They use it more often that a casual player does, but to a casual player, TR is an insurance policy that allows the game to restart with very high replay value if you hit 20 and don't like it there.

Do not require, either through a strict requirement or through a grind penalty more than maybe 10 or 15%, content above level 20 to get a HHoW.

EDIT: If the capped character farming HHoW for lowbie alts with low grind bothers you, remember how much grind it took to get that capped character, that's enough grind for many lifetimes.

Remember, Mit Romney had an economic plan, but it was too complex to explain to the voters.

[voodoogroves]

Here's some things that are up for discussion here at Turbine. We're trying to come up with more public proposals Soon(tm).

* Binding of Commendations of Valor
* Binding of Hearts of Wood (if these are BtA and the Commendations are BtC, you can still farm with an alternate character. And we can still re-use Commendations of Valor in the future for other items that we feel should be BtC, or use for upgrading BtC loot, instead of adding an additional new ingredient type in the future and an additional way to get that new ingredient. This is not a done deal in any case, as this also means you cannot combine ingredients from alternate characters.)
* Additional ways to earn Commendations of Valor besides Sagas, for U20.
* Whether or not Sagas earn Commendations of Valor at all.
* Whether or not the methods for earning Heroic True Hearts of Wood are the same as the methods for earning Epic Hearts of Wood or Iconic True Hearts of Wood.
* Whether or not we phase out Tokens of the Twelve at any point.
* Whether or not we phase out trading in Tokens of the Twelve for Heroic True Hearts of Wood at any point (probably not).
* What content you can use to earn various Hearts of Wood.


We're also trying to make sure that today's Lamannia release showing off other aspects of Reincarnation goes smoothly and that you guys have what you need in order to give good feedback.

Your 5th bullet is pretty key and likely where you're getting most of your feedback from (and obviously, the last one).

[patang01]

Here's some things that are up for discussion here at Turbine. We're trying to come up with more public proposals Soon(tm).

* Binding of Commendations of Valor
* Binding of Hearts of Wood (if these are BtA and the Commendations are BtC, you can still farm with an alternate character. And we can still re-use Commendations of Valor in the future for other items that we feel should be BtC, or use for upgrading BtC loot, instead of adding an additional new ingredient type in the future and an additional way to get that new ingredient. This is not a done deal in any case, as this also means you cannot combine ingredients from alternate characters.)
* Additional ways to earn Commendations of Valor besides Sagas, for U20.
* Whether or not Sagas earn Commendations of Valor at all.
* Whether or not the methods for earning Heroic True Hearts of Wood are the same as the methods for earning Epic Hearts of Wood or Iconic True Hearts of Wood.
* Whether or not we phase out Tokens of the Twelve at any point.
* Whether or not we phase out trading in Tokens of the Twelve for Heroic True Hearts of Wood at any point (probably not).
* What content you can use to earn various Hearts of Wood.


We're also trying to make sure that today's Lamannia release showing off other aspects of Reincarnation goes smoothly and that you guys have what you need in order to give good feedback.

I'm glad that we as a community have made you guys aware of how important these things are to the overall quality of our experience instead of the much shorter quick cash in.

Hopefully you will apply the same method of discussion to any future changes and additions keeping in mind that we want to reward you for giving us good choices and not turn upside down for the change in our pockets.

Thanks for the input.

[danotmano1998]

Here's some things that are up for discussion here at Turbine. We're trying to come up with more public proposals Soon(tm).

Thank you for the feedback, it's much appreciated.

[Krelar]

* Binding of Hearts of Wood (if these are BtA and the Commendations are BtC, you can still farm with an alternate character. And we can still re-use Commendations of Valor in the future for other items that we feel should be BtC, or use for upgrading BtC loot, instead of adding an additional new ingredient type in the future and an additional way to get that new ingredient. This is not a done deal in any case, as this also means you cannot combine ingredients from alternate characters.)

If you want a BTC currency why not use one we already have? Heroic commendations. People have been begging for more ways to earn them and you would simultaneously be adding new options for spending them as well. This would also give people who are uninterested in reincarnating something that's already useful.