Earning Hearts of Wood - post U20

[Scraap]

Can we get a vendor to trade these CoVs to for say level 28 augments or maybe even something not in the store? Right now the long term opportunity cost of them is XP while leveling, if people sit a cap to get raid completions or to farm up some other gear then taking those CoVs is a no brainer. Tokens of the Twelve were nice back in the day because I could buy a heart to TR or slot a nice item.

See, that's another thing: Ya'll deprecated the relevance of the old token sinks aside from for hearts. When the list of things a given currency can be spent on shrinks to 1-2 purchases of any real value due to a lack of maintaining the list, of course the rate folks purchase them via that route is going to accelerate.

[soloist12]

This is not what we intend to ship with. However, we need to decide on whether to lower the cost should or change the Commendations to be Bind to Account instead of Character. (Or potentially both, as the exact cost is still under discussion, but for simplicity I'm pretending it's one or the other right now.)

Should not be or, should be and. The issue already is that for a 1-20 activity, you're making us dip well into the 20s. What do you think people with TR goals do? We want to re-TR as fast as possible. In theory, a HoW shouldn't even be needed, but whatever.

If the Commendations are BtA, we expect that most Commendations will be farmed by level-cap characters and passed to other characters, and that they will be earned much faster than if the Commendations are BtC and earned by lower level characters.

That would almost like, give the players a choice on what to do. Oh the humanity. By the way, they should be "much faster", we want to TR again.

We're of course happy to hear feedback on all aspects of Reincarnation or other upcoming changes, but if you have specific thoughts on whether you'd prefer BtA Commendations or a cheaper price for Heroic True Hearts of Wood, please let us know here in this thread!

I don't think you guys understand your own game. Perhaps if you partook in it sometime with other players you would see what we do. Here's the thing with TR: We get to 20 usually on a multiclass build that's built to survive until 20, because we have no plans to go beyond it since your 20+ epic foundation is a swamp of garbage. So our character sits at 20 awaiting the timer countdown to do so again, then we launch right into it again at level 1. During a life, a lot of us either exp pot, stone, or both on painful lives.

You want to slow the above down and make it cost more? Jesus.

[ReaperAlexEU]

what if we split HR away from ER in the way it's earnt? it is already a separate system, so why not a separate way to achieve it?

just as TR is being left alone with regards to mechanics (besides the name change to HR) why not just leave the whole thing alone and leave tokens of the twelve as dropping in all ebberon epics, including the spinner chain, and have saga's contribute towards the ER and IR which both need lvl28 and plenty of time to farm epic quests for?

the more the players crunch the information before them the more this move to saga only rewards ceases to make sense for HR. 80 quests to HR. lvl23 before you've farmed enough for a heart. running high level epics on a low level epic character. none of it adds up right now.

all of that could apply to ER and IR, but none of it makes sense for HR. so it's great to see tokens of the twelve staying for U20, but it's bad to see them being removed from even a small subset of quests.

for years now a portion of the player base has been hitting lvl20 then going right back to lvl1 as soon as they can get within arms reach of that orc. sometimes they decide they need a break and do a bit of epic questing before getting back on the TR train, but it's always on their mind that their main goal is racking up the heroic lives. that might not be my end game, my first TR only just hit lvl20 this week after be TRing before U14 (progress got shelved to play the new shinies on other alts), but i do have a guildy and know other players that are full time TRers.

why ruin their chosen game? i quite like logging in wondering what class my guildy will be this time

i love the sagas as an optional extra, but i agree with many players that to make it mandatory is a mistake. i do like the idea of having a carrot to run quests i wouldn't normally run, but leave it as a carrot, don't turn it into a whip. it's a fundamental change in mindset, choosing to do something is far more likely to leave you happy than being forced to do something. i hate doing my housework, but i love helping my gf with hers as it's nice to take some of the weight off her shoulders.

so,
no to BtC on the currency
no to sagas being mandatory
no to the grind doubling (re 40 quests vs 80 quests)

bring back epic tokens and fragments, it was a simple system and with the fragment tweak it was ready to be expanded

do tweak the fragment reward to scale back if the player is over level, similar to exp rewards and renown rewards.

epic tokens is a good name, it's a reward for running epic quests and has no tie to ebberon other than the only NPC being there, which is easy enough to change.

make those saga rewards an optional extra just as all the other rewards on them are. before reincarnation was tied to them the complaints surrounding sagas we're quite amusing. now they are looking like a mandatory part of progressing there are suddenly tons of holes popping up in the system which doesn't expand players choice of quests but reduces them and forces players to run quests they don't enjoy. that's not good, thats taking a fun system and turning it into work.

i've not seen many players make unreasonable requests in this (ok, one player thought a single saga was enough to HR), most are calling for the 30-40 quest grind to be maintained in full knowledge that those able to do it in 10 quests will get the short end of the deal. so it's not as if we are asking for the easy button we have right now, today on live, which is part of the reason you want to retire tokens of the twelve in the first place.

you don't need to scrap that old system, it just needs a fresh lick of paint. stop it from being trivialised by scaling back rewards for nuking lvl20 quests on a maxed out lvl28 character. do that and you might find both the HR and the new ER and IR just fall into place in a way the playerbase find palatable.

[bbqzor]

There's active discussion here at Turbine about the binding status of Commendations of Valor.

This is what we are tentatively moving to for the next Lamannia preview (which is decided days ahead of time, so the conversation is likely to keep moving and Lamannia will be out of date by then):

Heroic True Heart of Wood: Costs 250 Commendations of Valor
Binds to Character on Acquire

This is not what we intend to ship with. However, we need to decide on whether to lower the cost should or change the Commendations to be Bind to Account instead of Character. (Or potentially both, as the exact cost is still under discussion, but for simplicity I'm pretending it's one or the other right now.)

If the Commendations are BtA, we expect that most Commendations will be farmed by level-cap characters and passed to other characters, and that they will be earned much faster than if the Commendations are BtC and earned by lower level characters. We also believe there are legitimate reasons for both choices and why one or the other is better for gameplay or fun, many of which have been expressed by various players recently.

We're of course happy to hear feedback on all aspects of Reincarnation or other upcoming changes, but if you have specific thoughts on whether you'd prefer BtA Commendations or a cheaper price for Heroic True Hearts of Wood, please let us know here in this thread!

This is not the number we are expecting at all, despite how often this is quoted, and feel this has misinformed some player's expectations. This is partially why we tried to clarify earning progress in multiple sagas at the same time. Our estimates are for roughly 3 Commendations per quest after looking at the overlapping quests in Forgotten Realms, played on Epic Hard.

This is also why we're actively looking at different ways to earn Commendations of Valor, though we can't promise specifics for U20 at this time. That is part of why we aren't touching Tokens of the Twelve for U20, either.

Let me start by just following what you've posted with extending your math into actual game play. This is stuff I would assume you guys can do, but apparently have not... because if you had I wouldn't be making this post.

At 3 Comms per Epic Hard completion, and a price point of 250 per TR, you are expecting people to do 83.3 Quests to fund one TR. Thats Epic Hard quests. There are currently 46 Epic Quests in game which at all count towards any Saga Credit. Some of those count multiple times but if your calculations were intended to land on an average of 3 comms per epic hard per quest total, the overlap shouldn't matter in a total count: the intention was one quest = three comms, so 84 quests = a TR.

Ergo, you seem to expect people to do every Epic Saga on Epic Hard *and then repeat over 80% of them a second time* to do a single regular heroic TR. Which people, by and large, want to do right at 20 without playing ANY epic content. So you're expecting players to happily do:
1) Every single Epic Saga quest on Epic Hard.
2) Over 80% of every Epic Saga quest AGAIN on Epic Hard.
3) TR their heroic lv20 character (who by that point is probably level 25+ since hes done 84+ epic hard quests).

You don't see the multiple levels of fail there? It does not allow people to TR at lv20. It does not allow people to pick and choose where they want to xp. It does not allow people to TR who do not have access to GH or FR. It is punitive to people who do not have access to every quest pack in those areas. It does not allow people to play the game the way they might find fun. It forces everyone to level from 20 to 25+, on every character, for every TR, by chain running the same Saga stuff over and over. Oh and which, by the way, *precludes them from taking any of the other Saga rewards you guys added as incentive to run Sagas*.

So not only do you have to treadmill yourself on Sagas... you dont get any other benefit from it. No skill tomes, no renown, no added XP, etc. It forces people to grind XP they dont want, at an opportunity cost of any other reward, to accomplish something they could previously do much easier.

I get that you want to phase out Tokens. I get that you want to incorporate Sagas here. Those are both fine. But it seems like you are not even playing the same game when the simple reality of the math you guys are using comes out so completely contrary to how anyone online I've ever spoken to feels.

For starters, they need to be BTA. Its not about earning them faster... frankly I am not even sure why that is a concern. Odds are, people TRing are not on their very first TR. By volume, they likely have some Destinies already available, probably some Lv20+ gear, certainly friends or guildies around, and with forcing so many completions it stands to reason they wouldn't even be "low level" for much of it (easily reaching 23+ for the bulk of those 84 completions). Its about palatable logistics for your players. If we are being forced to level to 25+... it stands to reason people might rather go to 28 and pickup an Epic TR, rather than just toss the 20-25 earnings away. Which means youll get characters at 28 farming sagas for Epic TR, and characters at 20 wishing they could TR but can't. The obvious solution is, make the comms BTA. BTC just forces people to grind where they dont want to, and mismatches the reality of how your system will play out with how the players want to play. Why do that? Just realize what the market is, and fit it. Everyone will be happier.

Secondly, the prices have to come down. On all the Hearts. I know you want to sell them in the store and avoid the (probable) current situation where its easier to farm tokens than buy a heart. You want the store to be a competing option instead of a fallback plan. That is fine, it is a business, I get it. But at 3 comms per quest, 84 quests for a regular TR.. thats excessive. I could get 4 raid 20ths by then. I could almost do half an entire TR by then (last one I did took ~180 quests to go 1-20... needing 84 to repeat it doesnt seem very balanced by comparison). It needs to be something like 20-40 quests. You have 46 Saga quests, AT MOST doing all of them once through should equal a regular Heroic TR. If you don't think that a "two raid 20ths" level of work is fair for a Heroic TR, I think you overestimate how much people leap with joy to do sagas. Significantly.

Thirdly, this basically is the same as deleting all other saga rewards off the menu. With the grind being so incredibly punitive, no one will take them (except perhaps the oddball case where you get an important skill tome 'that one time', like +3 Intimidate on a defender fighter). I would like to see the Comms be *in addition* to the other rewards. So that the intent is "go do sagas, get your bonus saga reward as an incentive to complete entire lines instead of just doing the quests with xp or loot you like... oh and also btw you earn Reincarnate credits!". And you know what? If they were BTA, that would actually make sense. I could go run the entire saga loop on a few guys, try for some tomes or pick up some renown, and after a bit be able to TR a guy.

There's two ways you could go with that idea. One is, you get a small number for free but have the option to pick more as a reward. So you could go about taking XP and Tomes like normal earning a small amount for free along the way to accrue over time. As long as its not too small (if even 100 quests isnt worth a TR, its too small), thats fine. But then you could also have them in the end reward list, so that people who just want to farm comms can go twice (or more) as fast. So as an example, two players could go do the whole Saga list. One could just take his passives and say get 100 comms for his 46 quest run passively, but choose XP and Tomes as his rewards. The other could take his passive 80 comms, but also opt to pick more comms as rewards and maybe get 250 in total, enough to TR. Obviously I just made up those numbers, but you get the idea.

The other is to just make them totally passive, so that theres no good way to directly farm them (but then not lower the passive rate too much, again the whole epic run of 46 quests should be enough for a heroic TR at worst). This means that people who just want to TR without all the effort, or if they dont need any other award from Sagas, would be encouraged to just buy them in the store. Personally I'm not a fan of this, I prefer always having the choice of in-game or in-store (on applicable things like this), but obviously you want the store to be used (so badly your current numbers are crazy) so there you go.

Fourth, and finally, even all my other posts above do nothing to address the segment of players that simply dislike epic. They enjoy heroic, with multiclassed characters using new enhancement combinations, many of which are completely pointless in epic given the destiny abilities present or the simple scaling of mob defenses. They're going to what, run the 34 heroic saga quests over and over and over despite hitting their "personal level cap" at 20? They're just forced to use the store period? If an Epic Hard quest gives 3 comms each, whats a Heroic one give... 1? 2? It cant give 3 or farming heroic is the same as farming epic. If they need 250 comms and 1 comm per quest... its almost twice as many quests to earn a TR as it is to level it... that obviously won't work. There needs to be some kind of solution here, simply because its a design flaw. I'm not saying it doesn't currently exist as well (since you can't get tokens for a heart from 1-20), this goes beyond now. Its something that as you design the future of the game you should consider.

I realize its long, and probably has some typos. I've proofed it a little but need to move on to other things. I hope you will consider the self-evident nature of this feedback, and realize some of your assumptions may need to change. The reality you seem to be designing around does not exist online... or if it does its something that I have manged to avoid seeing in the 6+ years I've been playing. I sincerely hope you find a way to make the system work... namely by making it A) BTA as a quality of life issue and acknowledgment of people's play preferences, and B) cheaper, so that it is actually plausible in terms of quest count and time played, given what other things in game take to accomplish in those same time frames. Since this latest post is down from the very insane original post, where it was something like 1000 quests for a TR, I can see you realize some things are off. I hope they keep moving in a manner which makes them right. Thank you for taking the time to read. Cheers.

[Pie-king]

If the problem as you see it is that hearts are too easy to get, you could always give us more things to spend the tokens on.

Make tokens drop in all epics (you may have to rename them to suit the lore). Then add all purchasable augments to be traded for tokens.

This will keep us happy in that we won’t be forced to run a small sub set of content we may not enjoy, it will boost heart sales as tokens will have value, and augments will be bought at all levels (I’m not buying augments from the store for anything that I out level in a day or 2 and who has the collectibles to buy a random one more than once?).

[Drwaz99]

This is not what we intend to ship with. However, we need to decide on whether to lower the cost should or change the Commendations to be Bind to Account instead of Character. (Or potentially both, as the exact cost is still under discussion, but for simplicity I'm pretending it's one or the other right now.)

This reminds me of the Ford commercial "Nuts OR Bolts". Almost everyone prefers AND.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVmgYvSB9Kk

Somethings just don't quite work with an OR. This is one. I think the rest can be implied.

[Magil]

For the life of me, I don't know why the Necro packs (minus the Abbot and maybe Litany) wasn't included as one of the first grand Sagas. Necro would have been the obvious first choice for a saga. When the idea of Sagas were announced, I said as much.

Necro might be the case due to, largely, differences in level. The lower level ones are around 6, and the upper ones around 17-18 ish? It'd be nice to have an epic level content of all of these, but with all of them being roughly the same level. Actually, if I remember right, the events of the Vale is a direct result of the player's influence against the Abbot. Just link Necro IV and Vale of Twilight as a saga. Make an epic of those, and voila.

I realize making epic version of Eberron content would be time consuming and cost intensive, but what is going on seems like complete abandonment of an entire realm of content.

[ReaperAlexEU]

Thanks to everyone for their feedback!

first thanks for agreeing to keep tokens of the twelve as a temporary option to TR in U20. secondly please understand that most feedback will be ignoring that as we are still focused on what the game will be like when that crutch is removed.

right now it's looking like if sagas are billed as the main way (yes, it is good to hear other options are brewing, but for now sagas seem to be the main method) then maybe sharing your vision on how sagas will mature will help us see the big picture as you guys are?

for example, are you planning to add at least one complete (not interdependent) saga to every epic level adventure pack? i see this being important as real people have put real thought in where they choose to spend their money, and it will upset those players if they find out they backed a bad horse without anyway of knowing about it.

these other options you are considering, would any of them return sagas to being an optional bonus instead of their current trajectory of becoming mandatory?

[Hathorian]

There's active discussion here at Turbine about the binding status of Commendations of Valor.

This is what we are tentatively moving to for the next Lamannia preview (which is decided days ahead of time, so the conversation is likely to keep moving and Lamannia will be out of date by then):

Heroic True Heart of Wood: Costs 250 Commendations of Valor
Binds to Character on Acquire

This is not what we intend to ship with. However, we need to decide on whether to lower the cost should or change the Commendations to be Bind to Account instead of Character. (Or potentially both, as the exact cost is still under discussion, but for simplicity I'm pretending it's one or the other right now.)

If the Commendations are BtA, we expect that most Commendations will be farmed by level-cap characters and passed to other characters, and that they will be earned much faster than if the Commendations are BtC and earned by lower level characters. We also believe there are legitimate reasons for both choices and why one or the other is better for gameplay or fun, many of which have been expressed by various players recently.

We're of course happy to hear feedback on all aspects of Reincarnation or other upcoming changes, but if you have specific thoughts on whether you'd prefer BtA Commendations or a cheaper price for Heroic True Hearts of Wood, please let us know here in this thread!

I vote BtA. It is impossible to talk about # of Comms required until you determine how many drop in epic chests . It is totally unacceptable that they only show up in Saga end rewards. Your assumption that all players have a capped character at all times is wrong.

[Systern]

Prior to U17, Tokens were good for hearts and epic augment slots. After U17, with the introduction of collectors trading collectables and shards for augments, tokens were only used for hearts.

Problem: There's an abundance of currency that's acquired relatively rapidly that effectively only purchases one thing so it is spent at a much lower rate.

Turbine solution: Create a new currency that effectively only buys one thing ?

Future problem: There's an abundance of this mostly useless currency.


Crazy idea: Make hearts purchasable with Plat. Ya know, the currency of the game. It's a plat sink, it'll be the beginnings of actually making an economy. It doesn't create another useless currency (but then again, that will help drive bag sales because we need a place to put it)...


Why am I buying Flawless dragon armors for commendations and relics alone? What tradesman sells his product at cost? Why isn't this a plat sink as well?


Why are you guys debating the best way to make the same mistake again? Gold -> Plat -> EDT -> ERT -> estar commendations -> hcomms -> astral shards -> soon to be signets -> CoVs
What's that cliche about repeating the same behavior and expecting different results?

[Phoenix-daBard]

Your previous question about binding status was clearly missing the point. We don't care a whit if the hearts are bound or not; they're BTC on live fer cryin out loud. We care about the ingredient used to purchase hearts. THAT is what needs to be BTA, not the heart.

My apologies for being unclear. I was only meaning to discuss the binding of the commendations at all points in my post.

Personally I would rather have the hearts BTA. I have a heart on a character that will never use it because of a the simple mistake that because the other hearts I have were BTA or unbound at the time I figured the true hearts were the same. Joke was on me when I bought it. I keep it around for a reminder to check first and in case they should be changed to BTA in the future.

[oradafu]

Necro might be the case due to, largely, differences in level. The lower level ones are around 6, and the upper ones around 17-18 ish? It'd be nice to have an epic level content of all of these, but with all of them being roughly the same level. Actually, if I remember right, the events of the Vale is a direct result of the player's influence against the Abbot. Just link Necro IV and Vale of Twilight as a saga. Make an epic of those, and voila.

I realize making epic version of Eberron content would be time consuming and cost intensive, but what is going on seems like complete abandonment of an entire realm of content.

I can see an additional Saga that overlaps Vale and Necro4 too.

But the Sagas were pitched as an additional source for rewards for running a full storyline. Storylines cover several levels. An obvious one that were pointed out by players at the time Sagas were announced that didn't get made were the Reaver's Saga (can start at WW or STK goes through Tempest Spine with GH and ends at Reaver's Refuge, since FOT wasn't created yet).

Sagas were not pitched as a sole source for rewards, which they are turning them into. They weren't something that NEEDED to be completed to play the game, but something that gave players an additional perk via XP, Renown, Tomes. So Necro and the Heroic Reaver story works perfectly for its ORIGINAL intent. A sole source for HOV was not the original intent of sagas.

[Enoach]

There's active discussion here at Turbine about the binding status of Commendations of Valor.

This is what we are tentatively moving to for the next Lamannia preview (which is decided days ahead of time, so the conversation is likely to keep moving and Lamannia will be out of date by then):

Heroic True Heart of Wood: Costs 250 Commendations of Valor
Binds to Character on Acquire

This is not what we intend to ship with. However, we need to decide on whether to lower the cost should or change the Commendations to be Bind to Account instead of Character. (Or potentially both, as the exact cost is still under discussion, but for simplicity I'm pretending it's one or the other right now.)

If the Commendations are BtA, we expect that most Commendations will be farmed by level-cap characters and passed to other characters, and that they will be earned much faster than if the Commendations are BtC and earned by lower level characters. We also believe there are legitimate reasons for both choices and why one or the other is better for gameplay or fun, many of which have been expressed by various players recently.

We're of course happy to hear feedback on all aspects of Reincarnation or other upcoming changes, but if you have specific thoughts on whether you'd prefer BtA Commendations or a cheaper price for Heroic True Hearts of Wood, please let us know here in this thread!

This is not the number we are expecting at all, despite how often this is quoted, and feel this has misinformed some player's expectations. This is partially why we tried to clarify earning progress in multiple sagas at the same time. Our estimates are for roughly 3 Commendations per quest after looking at the overlapping quests in Forgotten Realms, played on Epic Hard.


This is also why we're actively looking at different ways to earn Commendations of Valor, though we can't promise specifics for U20 at this time. That is part of why we aren't touching Tokens of the Twelve for U20, either.

First thank you for listening.

Now I want to point out that with the "Current" model of BtA Tokens of the 12 it takes 20 Full Tokens to purchase a Heroic Heart of Wood.

Based on drop rates with some quests dropping around 1/3 a full tokens worth of shards it can take up to as many as 60 quests to get your allotment (again that is if you stay at the lower end quests for return rates). At the upper end a person can earn 2 Tokens per quest - Personally I think the average Quests needed to get 20 tokens for the average player falls around 35 Quests.

So it has been pointed out that the 6 Sagas that make up where we can currently earn Commendations of Valor come to 51 Distinct Quests(10 Gianthold and 41 for the other 5). 5 of the Sagas share Quests between them. Gianthold Saga is the only one that does not share. I think Producer Glin's #'s are off on only needing to complete 36 Quests to complete 5 Sagas since a single quest shows up in at least 2+ sagas, except Lords of Dust/Servants of the Overlord/Spinner of Shadows which only appear in "the End of Eberron". It is also not fair to assume the Free VIP bypass or that people will pay to bypass.

At 3 Per Quest on Hard Completions:
(a) Saga: The End of Eberron (Epic) [11 Quests] - 33 Commendations of Valor
(b) Saga: Perils of Cormyr (Epic) [25 Quests] - 75 Commendations of Valor
(c) Saga: The Planeswalker’s Path (Epic) [10 Quests] - 30 Commendations of Valor
(d) Saga: Menace of the Underdark (Epic) [13 Quests] - 39 Commendations of Valor
(e) Saga: Honor of the Huntsilvers (Epic) [16 Quests] - 48 Commendations of Valor
(f) Saga: In the Wastes of Gianthold (Epic)[10 Quests] - 30 Commendations of Valor

So based on that number one full set of completions (Once Each of each Saga) will net approx.: 255 Commendations

Here is my problem with the numbers:
At 51 Quests, you are about 10+ quests more than the average of what it currently takes to earn a Heroic Heart Of Wood which is currently Bind to Account for the ingredients

Next, this takes away F2P members ability to earn a TR. They would need to purchase multiple packs to complete some of the sagas or end up perpetually paying astral shards for a completion against quests they don't have access to. Or they only option left will be the DDO store - I think making a convenience a necessity may not bode well.

-----------------------------
Here is my proposal to simplify the numbers:

If Bound to Character needs to stay... (this reduces the Cost based on # of Quests needed to be run which will still be around 20ish)
1) Make Heroic Hearts of Wood cost 3 Commendations of Valor
2) Make the Rate at which they are earned be 1 Commendation of Valor per Saga Completion

If we can go back to Bound to Account... (this puts the cost roughly around the same level as the # of Quests needed to run to currently get enough Tokens to TR)
1) Make Heroic Hearts of Wood cost 6 Commendations of Valor
2) Make the Rate at which they are earned be 1 Commendation of Valor per Saga Completion


You can then use something like 5 (bound)/10(unbound) for Iconic and 6(bound)/12(Unbound) for Epic

[Thar]

Last week we updated Lamannia with a new barter option in place for earning Hearts of Wood in-game. While we would have been better if the information I posting here was released at the same time, we received feedback from the community on the most concerning issues that come with both introducing a new system and changing an old. Below, I intend to address a few facts on the system, cover some of the design thoughts and also address concerns that were highlighted over the weekend.


When Update 20 goes out to live servers, there will be a new commendation available through select Epic Sagas that will allow players to barter for Hearts of Wood. Initially these Epic Sagas will offer an option to claim a Commendation of Valor; in time we intend to add additional methods to obtain “Commendations of Valor.”

(a) Saga: The End of Eberron (Epic)
(b) Saga: Perils of Cormyr (Epic)
(c) Saga: The Planeswalker’s Path (Epic)
(d) Saga: Menace of the Underdark (Epic)
(e) Saga: Honor of the Huntsilvers (Epic)
(f) Saga: In the Wastes of Gianthold (Epic)

A quest can overlap two or more sagas. In the situation where a quest is in multiple sagas, you will receive completion credit for each saga, for example, completing “A stay at the Inn” from the Update 16 Adventure Pack will reward credit in 3 Saga’s (b, c, e above). In this way, you can complete 5 sagas by playing 36 quests, and various combinations within that scenario if you prefer to skip some content.

The points you earn from completing a saga will vary based on the difficulty you completed them in. The number of commendations earned on an all elite run is 3-4 times that of an all normal run. In addition to difficulty, the higher level sagas tend to reward more commendations as well. Since the commendation is the currency, the important figure is the cost of the Hearts of Wood.

Feedback received:
The prices on Lamannia are not final – inspired by the Lamannia feedback, the Heroic Heart of Wood will be greatly reduced from the price displayed in the bartershop today. We’ll be looking at your additional feedback and how players play through sagas, and adjust the costs appropriately. We expect the average player to, upon reaching the minimum level requirement, spend additional hours to obtain a Heart of Wood – but never hundreds of hours. Since the heroic goal is 20, we are lowering the expectation of number of Epic quests needed to earn the heart. You will find that Iconic and Epic hearts cost more because you are expected to earn most of it during gameplay, if you approach earning commendations as your priority reward for Sagas. We are still working on these values, and next Lamannia update they will be lower (though still open to adjustment up/down based on feedback)

Saga’s have been intermittently off since they were introduced this summer. We approached this system with much consideration for delivering something this important, so it is not taken lightly, and we are focused on making sure that Sagas remain available for players who have already started engaging with them, even before the commendations were “the new thing”.

What are we solving?
• The saga system serves to spread out repeat questing and reward for playing a variety of content and more challenging content. It does not penalize for playing out of order and you can be on track for multiple sagas simultaneously.
• One thing, which players have already pointed out, is we are moving to a single game currency specifically for Hearts of Wood. New content, Eberron or FR, will not use Tokens of the Twelve, formerly “Epic Dungeon Tokens.” Originally intended as a hardcore option for the most Elite level cap builds – prior to U14 - the accessibility was made trivial for some when Epic levels were introduced. We left that unchecked and low priority for some time and there is an amazing disparity between players that can grind dozens in hours vs. the majority that takes days (20-30 hours) of gameplay to accomplish – we are balancing this system.
• Along those lines, for over a year DDO has not been adding to the Twelve tokens reward system, quite the opposite, and we will continue to deprecate this system over time. As this is being written, the design team is discussing a few approaches to how this will be done.


Feedback received:
As of this writing, Update 20 will not remove the Heart of Wood from the Twelve barter NPC. Next steps will be discussed at a later date, but eventually commendations will be the preferred method of exchange – ideally this is preferred by most players, today that is not the case and we are acting accordingly.
I do want to point out that the name of the True Druidic Heart of Wood is changing to Heroic Heart of Wood and all existing true-hearts will be updated to match.

As we work to get Reincarnation out to Lamannia, we will also make initial updates to the bartershops with Hearts of Wood.

I realize there are more topics to cover on this subject and we aim to address this here, on the Lamannia forums, during development.

so what your saying is that we can't take the xp, guild renown or tomes, that we have to take these commendations if we want to tr. epic fail...

[SisAmethyst]

...

At 3 Per Quest on Hard Completions:
(a) Saga: The End of Eberron (Epic) [11 Quests] - 33 Commendations of Valor
(b) Saga: Perils of Cormyr (Epic) [25 Quests] - 75 Commendations of Valor
(c) Saga: The Planeswalker’s Path (Epic) [10 Quests] - 30 Commendations of Valor
(d) Saga: Menace of the Underdark (Epic) [13 Quests] - 39 Commendations of Valor
(e) Saga: Honor of the Huntsilvers (Epic) [16 Quests] - 48 Commendations of Valor
(f) Saga: In the Wastes of Gianthold (Epic)[10 Quests] - 30 Commendations of Valor

So based on that number one full set of completions (Once Each of each Saga) will net approx.: 255 Commendations

Here is my problem with the numbers:
At 51 Quests, you are about 10+ quests more than the average of what it currently takes to earn a Heroic Heart Of Wood which is currently Bind to Account for the ingredients

Next, this takes away F2P members ability to earn a TR. They would need to purchase multiple packs to complete some of the sagas or end up perpetually paying astral shards for a completion against quests they don't have access to. Or they only option left will be the DDO store - I think making a convenience a necessity may not bode well.

...

And it doesn't take into account that a lot of those quests are 24+ and therefore I probably not only would need a regular heart but a full heart including the ETR as the time when I finished those sagas I am closer to cap then to level 20.

[EllisDee37]

- The End of Eberron - 11 Quests, 33 CoV
- Menace of the Underdark - 13 Quests, 39 CoV
- Perils of Cormyr - 25 Quests, 75 CoV
- The Chosen of Mystra - 11 Quests, 33 CoV
- Honor of the Huntsilver - 16 Quests, 48 CoV

Total - 228 CoV in just one run, with all the favors and without having to repeat a single quests.

You won't get 228 for all those sagas. Vargouille was pretty clear on this point: Once you factor in the multi-tasking, it works out to around 3 per EH quest. Of those 76 quests, if there are (to pick a number) 20 duplicates, you only needed to run 56 quests to turn in all those sagas. If that's the case, turning all the sagas in will get you roughly 56*3=168 comms, not 228.

[Worldcrafter]

At 3 Per Quest on Hard Completions:
(a) Saga: The End of Eberron (Epic) [11 Quests] - 33 Commendations of Valor
(b) Saga: Perils of Cormyr (Epic) [25 Quests] - 75 Commendations of Valor
(c) Saga: The Planeswalker’s Path (Epic) [10 Quests] - 30 Commendations of Valor
(d) Saga: Menace of the Underdark (Epic) [13 Quests] - 39 Commendations of Valor
(e) Saga: Honor of the Huntsilvers (Epic) [16 Quests] - 48 Commendations of Valor
(f) Saga: In the Wastes of Gianthold (Epic)[10 Quests] - 30 Commendations of Valor

So based on that number one full set of completions (Once Each of each Saga) will net approx.: 255 Commendations

Does the change to "Planeswalker Path" drop a quest? Mystra's Chosen has 11 in the saga, netting 3 more CoV.

Here is my problem with the numbers:
At 51 Quests, you are about 10+ quests more than the average of what it currently takes to earn a Heroic Heart Of Wood which is currently Bind to Account for the ingredients

I tabulated 46 quests in total, for a total of 258 CoV - 36 FR quests that contribute to multiple sagas, and then the 10 GH. Though, my estimates are working off of DDO wiki and not what's on Lamaland, so my apologies if my figures are off.

[Qhualor]

And it doesn't take into account that a lot of those quests are 24+ and therefore I probably not only would need a regular heart but a full heart including the ETR as the time when I finished those sagas I am closer to cap then to level 20.

and lets be realistic too. people on TR trains or want to hurry up and TR will farm the first 2 21-23 sagas on EH at best. they wont continue up the saga list. basically, might as well make the heart of woods in those 2 sagas and leave the rest alone.

[Spoonwelder]

This is not the number we are expecting at all, despite how often this is quoted, and feel this has misinformed some player's expectations. This is partially why we tried to clarify earning progress in multiple sagas at the same time. Our estimates are for roughly 3 Commendations per quest after looking at the overlapping quests in Forgotten Realms, played on Epic Hard.


This is also why we're actively looking at different ways to earn Commendations of Valor, though we can't promise specifics for U20 at this time. That is part of why we aren't touching Tokens of the Twelve for U20, either.

3 comms - per Epic Hard quest including overlap - means you need to do 83 quests to TR (250/3) at an average of 30min per EH quest (yes some are faster but most on EH arent). Thats 40+hours of questing to get your TR Heart. And still currently only if you do the Saga's which forces you into sub optimal quests from a 'farming' perspective. In that time you will also pretty much make it to level 25 or 26 (~40k per quest * 80 = 3.2M).

This is not a quick TR function - BTA is a Must and still I would lower the Commendation cost.

[SisAmethyst]

...It forces everyone to level from 20 to 25+, on every character, for every TR, by chain running the same Saga stuff over and over. Oh and which, by the way, *precludes them from taking any of the other Saga rewards you guys added as incentive to run Sagas*.

So not only do you have to treadmill yourself on Sagas... you dont get any other benefit from it. No skill tomes, no renown, no added XP, etc. It forces people to grind XP they dont want, at an opportunity cost of any other reward, to accomplish something they could previously do much easier.

I get that you want to phase out Tokens. I get that you want to incorporate Sagas here. Those are both fine. But it seems like you are not even playing the same game when the simple reality of the math you guys are using comes out so completely contrary to how anyone online I've ever spoken to feels.

...

Secondly, the prices have to come down. On all the Hearts. I know you want to sell them in the store and avoid the (probable) current situation where its easier to farm tokens than buy a heart. You want the store to be a competing option instead of a fallback plan. That is fine, it is a business, I get it. But at 3 comms per quest, 84 quests for a regular TR.. thats excessive. I could get 4 raid 20ths by then. I could almost do half an entire TR by then (last one I did took ~180 quests to go 1-20... needing 84 to repeat it doesnt seem very balanced by comparison). It needs to be something like 20-40 quests. You have 46 Saga quests, AT MOST doing all of them once through should equal a regular Heroic TR. If you don't think that a "two raid 20ths" level of work is fair for a Heroic TR, I think you overestimate how much people leap with joy to do sagas. Significantly.

Thirdly, this basically is the same as deleting all other saga rewards off the menu. With the grind being so incredibly punitive, no one will take them (except perhaps the oddball case where you get an important skill tome 'that one time', like +3 Intimidate on a defender fighter). I would like to see the Comms be *in addition* to the other rewards. So that the intent is "go do sagas, get your bonus saga reward as an incentive to complete entire lines instead of just doing the quests with xp or loot you like... oh and also btw you earn Reincarnate credits!". And you know what? If they were BTA, that would actually make sense. I could go run the entire saga loop on a few guys, try for some tomes or pick up some renown, and after a bit be able to TR a guy.

...

This is long but nicely said!

Right now the Sagas are optional and therefore it is nice to run them and I like to run them if possible without feeling to get forced into it. If I have to run them over and over again to earn my heart they suddenly turned into grind and I dislike them.