Earning Hearts of Wood - post U20

[kned225]

The token system was fine for buying TR hearts

Not in their minds. They gave you a free heart for running content you paid for years ago

New system is buy all their new content and then buy your heart from the store outta frustration

[Beethoven]

This is not a compromise, this is "Oh look players are upset for some reason we do not understand. Let's let them think we are listening and do what we said we were going to do quietly in two or three months from now, by then they will have forgotten." I believe Marie Antoinette said it best "Let them eat cake."

The history buff in me cannot let this ignorance stand.

It's a bad analogy since there is no evidence or record of Maria Antoinette ever having said the phrase, and historians generally agree it would have been completely out of character for her to having done so. So you effectively comparing the situation to one where an authority has been unjustly accused of something based solely because of unsubstantiated claims published by a tabloid (le'libelle).

It is pretty obvious where Turbine wants to go.
People used to buy at least some True Hearts with TP.
Now, the Epic Crafting/end game from two years ago has become outdated and it became a no brainer to use Tokens to TR. Nobody buys them anymore.
They want to get back to where at least some people buy some hearts.

I don't think there is going to be a popular answer.
Costumers leaving is not good for a company.
Costumers staying but only to mooch off a companies product for free with paying fairly little (or nothing at all) is also not going keep the lights on.

So, yes there is a disconnect:
We prefer to not have to pay for anything.
They prefer for us to pay for everything.
The compromise would be to pay for some stuff sometimes.

There should be options though beyond just Saga. Saga's (based on the time and effort it takes to complete them) should give the largest reward. I could also see adding Commendations to raids, the amount depending on the difficulty and level of the raid. It could help the raiding scene and give people more reasons to run them again.
Finally, in regards to the old Eberron epic system, one simple option may be to take the Hearts out of the vendor and replace them with a turn-in allowing to trade Tokens of the Twelve for Commendations.

[mute_mayhem]

I wanted to answer a couple of questions I've seen come up in the various threads in the past half a day or so. Just a reminder - this thread is the best place to give us your feedback right now, as it's got a lot of DDO team eyes on it.

In regards to Tokens of the Twelve: Tokens of the Twelve will continue to drop when Update 20 is released. One change will be that the Spinner of Shadows quest chain will no longer drop Tokens, since it is part of a Saga, so you'll get Commendations when you complete the Saga that these quests are a part of.

Challenges: Tokens of the Twelve will continue to be offered as a Challenge reward for Epic Cannith Challenges.

The only positive thing I can come up with regarding this disaster is that you guys are really good at convincing me to not give you my money. I wish all businesses operated like you, it would be far easier on my wallet.

Seriously Turbine, I know listening is hard, but it's an incredibly useful skill to have, especially when the people you're supposed to be listening to have money to spend on your product.

[TDarkchylde]

One change will be that the Spinner of Shadows quest chain will no longer drop Tokens, since it is part of a Saga, so you'll get Commendations when you complete the Saga that these quests are a part of.
Challenges: Tokens of the Twelve will continue to be offered as a Challenge reward for Epic Cannith Challenges.

So, you take tokens out of the one reliable, if slow method for F2P players to earn them, as Challenges aren't the best method if you don't *own* them.

Hint, hint. We're not running the Spinner chain for the Saga now! By taking the tokens out, you are literally taking away the only reason 99% of people ever run the chain NOW.

Your whole problem in this entire fiasco is that y'all are giving people fewer options, not more, and those few are very unattractive.

Someone earlier mentioned the possibility of adding cosmetics, pets and tricks to Saga rewards. That would be incentivizing people to run them assuming they care about such things (though most now would just take the XP or renown). Tying something mandatory into them like the proposed being the only method to earn comms only infuriates people.

This whole time people have been asking for more options, not less, and yet y'all seem to construe that as reason to take away those options.

[Satyriasys]

One change will be that the Spinner of Shadows quest chain will no longer drop Tokens, since it is currently the only option to reincarnate for free.

ftfy

[voodoogroves]

Keep saying it.

Comms as an alternative to tokens would be ok.

- They need to be as easy to get for the same function
- The mechanism for getting them needs to not force me to play arbitrary sagas including lots of content I (the theorhetical player - our tastes are all different) do not like - I want to have actual choice in what I play ... today you can get tokens from running quests - not super-chains only
- Current tokens are BTA, allowing one to farm on one character and spend/use on another ... allowing people to keep some at/near cap and some revolving and TRing

Yank tokens and replace with comms ... sure. If you're really are aiming for something that has at least similar parity in annoyance to farm/get then comms ...
- Need to drop in quests (and I rather like an increased rate in heroic raids to encourage them)
- Need to be BTA
- Need to have a way to swap tokens for comms


... and the heart needs to be about as achievable. I could probably earn a heroic heart today in one session of game-play, running whatever content I want for tokens. The saga mechanism and proposed heart costs are much more costly.

[Sarzor]

I'm still calling bullsh*t.

All I got out of this was the "hopefully in the future you'll see it our way."

I don't want to run sagas. I bought for years based on epic packs, and to invalidate them for the purpose I bought them, to get tokens to TR, is still bullsh*t. I never bought MotU because it sucked, and the newest expansion is even worse. An attempt to force me to buy those is going to end with me spending my money on other games which reward that money with fun, not abuse.

And taking away the options for free players through the spinner chain? Really? Are you trying to be as mean as you can?

[rest]

I read a lot of posts tieing the problem with Sagas to the poor quality of FR content. I disagree with that. We asked for, we begged for, an FR expansion. The current FR quests are actually VERY cool. Some really really well designed quests, interesting story arcs, and gorgeous explorer areas. The problem with the FR content is the LOOT. Except for a small handful of nice items, the FR loot on the whole is terrible. Random effects are TERRIBLE. So the main reason to avoid FR content is not that it's bad, it's that there's virtually no incentive to play it. And forcing Saga completions in FR content isn't helping. Fix FR loot and you may have people return to playing the content. And that includes developing the Sschindy and Underdark explorers (as promised, then abandoned!!). More rares, more named items, more side quests.

Quit pushing Sagas and return to ACTUAL development.

I never asked for FR content, and I certainly never begged for it.

[HungarianRhapsody]

Why not just replace fragments of the twelve with Commendations of Valor in their current quantities so they drop in chests instead? Replace Tokens of the Twelve with 50 Commendations of Valor and Greater Tokens of the Twelve with 100 Commendations of Valor? Add Commendations to all epic end reward chests so all quests give something towards a TR, not just the ones where Fragments and Tokens drop right now.

Problem solved until you can implement these additional methods at a later date?

And make them BTA.

This makes an enormous amount of sense to me.

Want level 20 quests to not contribute much to TR'ing? Reduce the number of tokens it drops.
Want sagas to contribute a lot to TR'ing? Make sagas drop lots of tokens.
Want tokens of the twelve to not exist in Faerun? JUST CALL THEM SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

DDO doesn't need yet another currency/collectable. ESPECIALLY a BtC one. We have too many of those that are started with enthusiasm and then abandoned. And we certainly don't need to be pushed into quests that we don't enjoy with the Saga mechanic. Sagas are great for people that want to use them, but don't FORCE them onto people who don't like a couple of the quests inside a saga.

[ThrakThor]

I really like the reincarnation plan of Heroic Heart of Wood, Iconic Heart of Wood, and Epic Heart of Wood so good job on that. The problem is obviously the earning of the hearts via in-game means. Some people will always buy hearts of all kind from the store because they are flush with cash but not with time, some people will do a mixture of the two because they have some time and some money, some will never buy because they have time but no money, and of course there's another group who will do whatever they please just because. The system that you put into place has to appease all of the groups because they all contribute to the continued existence of the game.

If the TR process is slowed (increase in store cost or lack of ability to get them in-game) it means you have fewer people at lower levels and more people at higher levels waiting to save up money/in-game items to get said hearts (increased level cap has already widened the TR gap for some). This means that new people to the game find fewer people to pug with and are less likely to stick around and invest more money into the game. Obviously this does mean more groups in higher levels but people will get bored quickly because there is no end game any more for many players (let's not even get into Guilds even less likely to pug as they will be doing EE content for best CoV reward).

In the same vein, realistically DDO is not a growth game and your money is not primarily coming from new players it is coming from those who love the game and keep pumping money into it whatever their playstyle is. So by frustrating their playstyle of 1-20ish, TR, buy pots, boxes, etc, rinse and repeat, they decide this is not the game for them so they up and leave. Even if I am wrong and it does come from your new players my point stands - no veterans TRing = no-one to run with new players = no new income. If you start dictating how they are to play the game, "Thou shalt run Saga's to TR!" then it stops being a game and starts being work and who wants to pay-to-work, I pay-to-play.

If anything a new system should make TR easier, if you know you can with relative ease TR your l.28 Iconic and get cool past life stuff you are more likely to a) buy the iconics b) buy pots to speed up the levelling c) be there to run with others who are doing the same thing. This all goes to help with retention of players and add money to the DDO pot.


Many wonderful/vital ideas have been made:

• Make CoV BTA
• Make CoV be a replacement for Tokens with some equitable system of replacement.
• Make CoV drop from raids at various levels in various quantities.
• Make CoV drop from quests at various levels in various quantities.
• Make CoV the default currency.

Sagas are great as they are, "Ooooo, do I want XP, renown or a skill tome." Make this change and it will make the choice be only one possible option for many people. The new reincarnation options Heroic, Iconic, and Epic are very exciting and full of potential (We'll see what the past life goodies are before I say it's a complete win). Please do not undermine your good decisions by implementing a half finished system (Soon^tm never ends well in this context).

[Vyder]

more ways to earn valor comms that doesnt force people to run only the present sagas?

If what glin says is true, and there will be other ways to earn comms than please give us the complete and finished system with the other options.

[Singular]

So, you take tokens out of the one reliable, if slow method for F2P players to earn them, as Challenges aren't the best method if you don't *own* them.

Hint, hint. We're not running the Spinner chain for the Saga now! By taking the tokens out, you are literally taking away the only reason 99% of people ever run the chain NOW.

Your whole problem in this entire fiasco is that y'all are giving people fewer options, not more, and those few are very unattractive.

Someone earlier mentioned the possibility of adding cosmetics, pets and tricks to Saga rewards. That would be incentivizing people to run them assuming they care about such things (though most now would just take the XP or renown). Tying something mandatory into them like the proposed being the only method to earn comms only infuriates people.

This whole time people have been asking for more options, not less, and yet y'all seem to construe that as reason to take away those options.

I've never run the chain for tokens. It's absurd that you're claiming 99% of players do so, and weakens your argument. Possibly some large percentage of f2p players only run that, and never buy content with TP, but I don't see it.

Why not just say "Turbine, you're making an obvious money grab and it makes your game less viable. What's the point in playing if you continue to erode the escapism for me?" Well, perhaps you don't feel that way, but I do.

The history buff in me cannot let this ignorance stand.

It's a bad analogy since there is no evidence or record of Maria Antoinette ever having said the phrase, and historians generally agree it would have been completely out of character for her to having done so. So you effectively comparing the situation to one where an authority has been unjustly accused of something based solely because of unsubstantiated claims published by a tabloid (le'libelle).

It is pretty obvious where Turbine wants to go.
People used to buy at least some True Hearts with TP.

His point was perfectly fine. He isn't writing a history paper, isn't publishing to reveal objective truth in history whatsoever. He is using the well known allegorical tale of how the elite power holders treat those without power.

So your silly criticism of him detracts from the rest of your post. I didn't read whatever you wrote after that to be honest, because you came off as haughty from the beginning, sidelining yourself into a nonsense analytical position. So what? So what if he didn't accurately cite the Queen? Do you somehow fail to understand what he is writing? Do you somehow fail to comprehend that he is using allegory to state that Turbine isn't listening to its customers?

Regardless, personally I disagree with his claims. The past few Dev posts - including producer Glin's - have demonstrated that they are listening to us.

[Qhualor]

If this thread doesn't prove it to you watchful devs keeping a close eye on player comments, you will notice a trend. The players want options. You can't satisfy ever type of play style. Forcing all types of players to run sagas and forcing them to run specific characters does not go over well.

Tell us the real reason why you guys are having to discuss bind status.

Tell us the real reason why you guys are phasing out a working system to start a brand new one.

Tell us the real reason why you guys continue to invalidate old epic in every release.

I already know the reason behind the saga push, but its best to make them optional with bonus rewards. Not a requirement to reincarnate or buy the Hearts from the store. I stress the players want options. Options is what makes all types of players and play styles HAPPY.

[Ausdoerrt]

I wanted to answer a couple of questions I've seen come up in the various threads in the past half a day or so. Just a reminder - this thread is the best place to give us your feedback right now, as it's got a lot of DDO team eyes on it.

In regards to Tokens of the Twelve: Tokens of the Twelve will continue to drop when Update 20 is released. One change will be that the Spinner of Shadows quest chain will no longer drop Tokens, since it is part of a Saga, so you'll get Commendations when you complete the Saga that these quests are a part of.

Challenges: Tokens of the Twelve will continue to be offered as a Challenge reward for Epic Cannith Challenges.

Good luck to F2P players and premiums without the newest content. If there are any left after U20, that is.

[Thrudh]

... and the heart needs to be about as achievable. I could probably earn a heroic heart today in one session of game-play, running whatever content I want for tokens. The saga mechanism and proposed heart costs are much more costly.

You're not getting it... It's too easy to get a heart right now... One session of play means no one is buying them from the store... When tokens first came out, they were harder to get, and many of us bought TR hearts... Now, no one does...

Turbine needs to increase the work required to get a TR heart, so that at least SOME people decide to buy them... But not increase the work so much that everyone HAS to buy them...

It's a balancing act... You can't ask for comms to be easy to get as tokens, because that's not their goal. It is fair to make them harder to get, hard as it used to be when the cap was level 20... They just shouldn't make it harder...

BtA, drop a few comms from every quest, more from raids, a ton from sagas... We need more sagas to include all epic quests. Make it take 40 quests (completing 2-3 sagas along the way)... Powergamers like you will still grind it out fast... middle players like me will probably end up buying hearts again.

[rosedarkthorn]

My play style consists of random factors and whether or not I have a goal in mind. If I have no goal in mind, I have less incentive to play. If said goal requires a ton of grinding, I have less incentive to play. If none of my friends are online to help said grinding be less tedious, I have less incentive to play.

So here's how it goes when I log in:

1. Check friends list to see if anyone is around.
2. Check LFM's to see if there's anything posted that I want to do.
3. If no friends are online, and no interesting LFM's are posted, likely run a TTT to see if a shard I need drops.
4. Once finished with TTT, decide whether or not I want to deal with the crazy CR's in Lords of Dust and Spinner of Shadows, or try to tackle Offering of Blood or any of the other Sands quest that drop Shards/Seals/Scrolls I want.
5. Usually the answer is no, so then I'll do any necessary bank stuff, sell junk, and either, repeat step 2 again or decide whether or not I want to tackle to Heroic Sagas in order to get the renown reward for my guild.
6. Since I've completed all those quests before more than once and the sagas are generally 11+ quests long, which is rather discouraging because all I can think about is how long that will take, I lose interest in that idea fairly quickly.
7. Repeat step 2.
8. If there is still no LFM I want to do, mill around and hope a friend logs in so I might be motivated to do one of the grindy things I hate doing.
9. Repeat step 2 once more just in case.
10. If still no interesting LFM's, log out and find something else to do.

[Yamato-San]

Sorry Turbine, you're doing it wrong.

Just have a look on the retail business:
Every modern shop is optimized to extend the duration a customer (or just a visitor)
will stay in the store or on the website.
This will simply increase the chance to sell some products.

Just replace 'store' with DDO to recognise your error.

At the moment you do nothing to increase the continuance of the gameplay.
Since there is no relevant endgame, a good reason to continue DDO is to reincarnate.
Every reincarnation increases greatly the duration a player will stay in DDO and
raises the chance for selling goodies like XP boosts.

If you raise the cost (be it by TP costs, by time to grind, by pain to run unwanted quests)
fewer people will reincarnate, the playerbase will shrink, your profit will shrink.

[SirValentine]

One change will be that the Spinner of Shadows quest chain will no longer drop Tokens

So...the only quests where F2P, or premiums interested in Heroic rather than Epic content, currently get tokens, is going away.

Like I said before, I understand that from a profit-perspective, F2P are not your priorty. But man, that's harsh. Screwing F2P on future new things is one thing, actively nerfing the few options they already had is just mean.

[Lauf]

The problem is...you've got money ppl at turbine who read that and say "where's the money?"

Now i understand you may be vip or buy boxes, pots etc but those money guys dont care. They figure if you're willing to spend money on those things, you've got more to give. Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong

I'm by no means a big fish when it comes to $$, but I do spend about 50$ a year. not a lot, but spending roughly half of what VIPs spends seems reasonable as a premium player. any more and I might consider going VIP, but then again they are forced to pay extra all the time... so at the moment I prefer premium.
Does 50$ a year make my voice worth listening to? no idea. but string some Me's together, and it adds up.

as for what makes me spend cash, I've made my position known in past threads but I've no problem repeating it:

I will spend money on content. the more quality is in the content, the more willing I am to shell out $. (vault of the artificers, MotU)
the less quality/size/usefulness is in the content, the more likely I am to try and favor farm it rather than spend $. (shadowfell)
I would much rather pay for many small adventure packs than for one big expansion.
I would prefer having 3-4-5 different packs to go to at a certain level while leveling than have 3-5 levels of new content added at the top.
I do buy things like bags, races, classes, inventory space, bank space, character slots. (i.e. upgrades)
I don't buy things like pots, cosmetic armor, pets, hirelings, rest shrines, rez cakes.

[Qhualor]

You're not getting it... It's too easy to get a heart right now... One session of play means no one is buying them from the store... When tokens first came out, they were harder to get, and many of us bought TR hearts... Now, no one does...

Turbine needs to increase the work required to get a TR heart, so that at least SOME people decide to buy them... But not increase the work so much that everyone HAS to buy them...

It's a balancing act... You can't ask for comms to be easy to get as tokens, because that's not their goal. It is fair to make them harder to get, hard as it used to be when the cap was level 20... They just shouldn't make it harder...

BtA, drop a few comms from every quest, more from raids, a ton from sagas... We need more sagas to include all epic quests. Make it take 40 quests (completing 2-3 sagas along the way)... Powergamers like you will still grind it out fast... middle players like me will probably end up buying hearts again.

Only reason why its so easy to farm tokens for hearts is because Turbine decided to close the gap between casuals and power gamers. They nerfed DS and turned DDO from a grouping game into a solo game. Turbine made it easy, not the players. That's the brutal truth. I agree that they need to make it a little harder to earn Comms but that requires the devs to increase the difficulty, but at the same time adjust drop rates fairly to make the grind equal the reward. I've said it and so haven't s lot of other players, Turbine just needs to suck it up and do a complete overhaul of the game to "fix" these problems. There would be s whole lot more happy players and the "need" for micro transactions would be less.