Occupy Stormreach grows!

[sha123]

Youre not understanding the difference between the issue that caused the protest, and the result of the protest.

The issue was the heart of wood change. It has always been about this issue - and has never changed.

The result of the protest was multiple media coverage and a response from the producer. So far. It isnt over yet.

Heart of wood system is "going to" change? Just like the madstone boots changed? Oops. yeah strike one. Just like the XP after TR changed. Burrrn, strike 2. Just like keeping tomes after TRing. Yea players got their way on that one as well. Strike 3 - off the plate, next batter.

Turbine has a case history of coming up with terribad ideas that get rejected by the player base and they have reverted many of them due to overwhelming lack of support for the new machanic.

You say its confusing - likely because of not being aware of the case history of changes being reverted when not supported, as well as not having a real position on the issue other than instigation.

That's not the point. The point is Heart of wood will still be removed despite your protests. Hence, it was unsuccessful. The most you can say is that you got Turbine's attention. Forum flaming would have been sufficient for that. Hence, standing around on a bridge did not accomplish your goal which was to "stop the heart of wood trade from being changed."

I don't see any difference in the player base still playing after excluding you protesters. You don'r represent the player base.

[Dandonk]

Don't forget Mem's Trivia tonight! Come one, come all!

We shall not be moved

[Lanhelin]

The bridge protest now lasts more than 108 hours!


Take a look at the updated Occupy Stormreach Press Review and the Screenshot Collection.


Kudos to the participants showing that much staying/not playing power.


The Marketplaces #1, #2 and #3 are still open

[Chauncey1]

The forum outrage would have garnered a response regardless of the bridge thing. Honestly I think we would be in exactly the same place with or without people parked on a wayfinder bridge.

I don't think this form of protest is bad, I just think you and others are giving it more credit for a response than warranted.

I doubt it.
This protest got publicity and fast.
Had we kept our nerdrage confined to the forums, that would not be the case.

[Grosbeak07]

If that is the case, and they won't come to the table without us having to raise holy hell every time, then they will only cause more players to leave.
Nobody wins.

This is my fear of the whole situation.

[Chai]

The forum outrage would have garnered a response regardless of the bridge thing. Honestly I think we would be in exactly the same place with or without people parked on a wayfinder bridge.

I don't think this form of protest is bad, I just think you and others are giving it more credit for a response than warranted.

Nope. Forum riots rarely garner multiple media outlet attention like the sit in did. The sit in garnered far more attention than the regular forum rants do, in orders of magnitude.

[Scraap]

This is my fear of the whole situation.

Precisely why we need to sit down and have a thorough dialogue on the differences between the production and consumption cultural approaches to the game, so we don't have to keep revisiting the conversation over and over again. This whole thing really is painful, but a sharp pain vs a slow grinding one makes no difference in the end if they continue to remain on their present course of constantly over-focusing on their present projects to the detriment of the rest of the systems. Look at the variables they're using for their math: balancing HTR against all current sagas? It's obvious it starts from the approach of Epic Reincarnation, and fills in heroic TRing as an afterthought, or they wouldn't even be including 25+ quests as part of their balance-sheet equations.

[Chai]

That's not the point.

No that [b]IS[/b}the point. The fact that youre not seeing or acknowledging it doesnt make my solid irrefutable position go away. The fact that you gloss over everything posted and just continue to repeat that nothing was gained, which is incorrect. Customer feedback is always a plus. We pay the bills after all.

The point is Heart of wood will still be removed despite your protests. Hence, it was unsuccessful.

Incorrect. I cited cases in very recent Turbine history where lack of support caused them to revert their plans. All you do is continue to repeat that nothing was accomplished, when in fact if you were aware of Turbines case history on such matters, youd clearly see how this situation is akin to the one I cited. Since you have no refutation for those however,m you attempt to gloss over them and repeat that nothing was accomplished. That repeated argument with no logic behind it whatsoever has already been dismantled.

The most you can say is that you got Turbine's attention. Forum flaming would have been sufficient for that. Hence, standing around on a bridge did not accomplish your goal which was to "stop the heart of wood trade from being changed."

Wrong. It got Turbines attention, multiple media outlet attention, mass player attention. Attention in the MMO community. That battle is still being fought. Youre continued claiming that it still will change is false, unless you have a delorian, a flux capacitor, and 1.21 jiggawatts, you do not know that the goal hasnt been accomplished yet. THey could be in a meeting right now discussing cancelling the changes due to overwhelming lack of support for them, but you wouldnt know that, yet you will still claim its going to change? If youre from the future, who wins the next 5 super bowls. Daddy needs a new pair of shoes.

I don't see any difference in the player base still playing after excluding you protesters. You don'r represent the player base.

You dont see the difference. The difference is there though. The problem isnt that we have no point, its that you fail to see it. The player base has represented itself quite well, in sitting in, posting on FB, leaving and filling out exit surveys, etc....what exactly have you done? Attempted to instigate, and failed to do so. What exactly is your position on this issue anyhow, other than attempted instigation. You have quite a few posts here and yet other than the same repeated "you guys arent acomplishing anything" (which has been proven wrong as nauseum throughout) youre really not dropping any logic here. There are some small number of folks who do support the change, and some of them have stated their reasons why. Youre not among them.

[slarden]

Nope. Forum riots rarely garner multiple media outlet attention like the sit in did. The sit in garnered far more attention than the regular forum rants do, in orders of magnitude.

The publicity, yes that may have been a direct result of the bridge sit in.

I don't the publicity mattered all that much either. It was an unfinished product and still is. They were never going to require 500 hours of game play for a heart. The other issues are still in discussion, but I doubt they are sweating because far less than 1% of the player base is sitting on a bridge on Wayfinder. They realize that almost the entire player base is unhappy based on very clear forum posts/responses.

[Chai]

The publicity, yes that may have been a direct result of the bridge sit in.

I don't the publicity mattered all that much either. It was an unfinished product and still is. They were never going to require 500 hours of game play for a heart. The other issues are still in discussion, but I doubt they are sweating because far less than 1% of the player base is sitting on a bridge on Wayfinder. They realize that almost the entire player base is unhappy based on very clear forum posts/responses.

The same was said about the madstone nerf, the loss of XP on epic TR, and keeping tomes on TR. Wrong on all 3 accounts. As ive clearl stated and people who disagree continue to gloss over, theres a long case history here of Turbine reversing terribad ideas due to lack of player support for them.

[sha123]

No that [b]IS[/b}the point. The fact that youre not seeing or acknowledging it doesnt make my solid irrefutable position go away. The fact that you gloss over everything posted and just continue to repeat that nothing was gained, which is incorrect. Customer feedback is always a plus. We pay the bills after all.



Incorrect. I cited cases in very recent Turbine history where lack of support caused them to revert their plans. All you do is continue to repeat that nothing was accomplished, when in fact if you were aware of Turbines case history on such matters, youd clearly see how this situation is akin to the one I cited. Since you have no refutation for those however,m you attempt to gloss over them and repeat that nothing was accomplished. That repeated argument with no logic behind it whatsoever has already been dismantled.



Wrong. It got Turbines attention, multiple media outlet attention, mass player attention. Attention in the MMO community. That battle is still being fought. Youre continued claiming that it still will change is false, unless you have a delorian, a flux capacitor, and 1.21 jiggawatts, you do not know that the goal hasnt been accomplished yet. THey could be in a meeting right now discussing cancelling the changes due to overwhelming lack of support for them, but you wouldnt know that, yet you will still claim its going to change? If youre from the future, who wins the next 5 super bowls. Daddy needs a new pair of shoes.



You dont see the difference. The difference is there though. The problem isnt that we have no point, its that you fail to see it. The player base has represented itself quite well, in sitting in, posting on FB, leaving and filling out exit surveys, etc....what exactly have you done? Attempted to instigate, and failed to do so. What exactly is your position on this issue anyhow, other than attempted instigation. You have quite a few posts here and yet other than the same repeated "you guys arent acomplishing anything" (which has been proven wrong as nauseum throughout) youre really not dropping any logic here. There are some small number of folks who do support the change, and some of them have stated their reasons why. Youre not among them.

LOL....Keep kidding yourself that you are making a difference. I do enjoy watching you guys just stand there and waste your time.

[Lanhelin]

If that is the case, and they won't come to the table without us having to raise holy hell every time, then they will only cause more players to leave.
Nobody wins.

Funny thing: If we would have asked questions that don't target answers containing any numbers, we probably got an answer earlier:

Worldcrafter is more right than I was, with my misleading "3 per quest" comment. (This is part of why devs sometimes fear to speak and put out 'real' numbers because we make mistakes, and those of us good with numbers are not necessarily the same of us who are good with words.)

My apologies, again.

I don't know English that very good to be able to detect if this is just a joke or a reason meant to be serious? English natives, please help me understand this.

[Enoach]

The "Sit In" does appear to have created publicity and has helped to spread the "news" a bit further...

The forums unfortunately become to filled with the vitriol instead of rational discussion on why the players don't like the change. Of course it does not help when 1) These changes are not fully disclosed and 2) The numbers don't match what the DEVs say they should be - Example: Screen Shot showing 17 CoVs on a Hard Completion with the Store showing 900 CoVs to purchase a Heart of Wood.

I give prop's to the people that staged this sit in and also prop's to those that are posting in the LAM thread with rational points and counterpoints to the proposed system.

I do hope that Turbine does realize that with as few sagas as they have in the GAME it is way to early to think about "Tying" anything to them.

Personally I hope they realize this and Create some additional Sagas that can be run:-> Small Saga with rewards adjusted based on # of Quests (Including Raids in some to help boost the # of Quests)
1. Vault Of Night - 6 Quests (Heroic/Epic)
2. Red Fens - 5 Quest Saga (Heroic/Epic)
3. Carnival - 4 Quest Saga (Heroic/Epic)
4. Sentinel - 4 Quest Epic / 5 Quest Heroic
5. Vale of Twilight - 6 Quests (Heroic)
6. Amrath - 7 Quests (Heroic)
7. Cannith - 5 Quests (Heroic)
8. Sands - 10 Quest (Heroic)/5 Quests (Epic)

These would allow for a Quick turn around and open up Saga Options for those not FR players. Reward amounts can be adjusted based on the # of Quests and these SAGAs will be similar to GH ones in that there is no overlap with another saga.

[Chai]

LOL....Keep kidding yourself that you are making a difference. I do enjoy watching you guys just stand there and waste your time.

Weve made that difference quite a few times in the past. Every time you TR and you get to keep your tomes, you can thank us. Every time you TR and get to keep your previous epic XP earned, you can thank us. No ones kidding themselves about making the difference, because have, are, and will continue to do so in the future. Customers, the most important people in any business equation, are never wasting their time in providing feedback about what they want in the product.

Other than the constant repetition of not making a difference, which has been proven wrong at every turn, what is your actual logical position on this issue?

[Lanhelin]

I do enjoy watching you guys just stand there and waste your time.

LOL, so you're standing there too?

[Qhualor]

The publicity, yes that may have been a direct result of the bridge sit in.

I don't the publicity mattered all that much either. It was an unfinished product and still is. They were never going to require 500 hours of game play for a heart. The other issues are still in discussion, but I doubt they are sweating because far less than 1% of the player base is sitting on a bridge on Wayfinder. They realize that almost the entire player base is unhappy based on very clear forum posts/responses.

The players have corrected the devs several times in the other thread on the numbers. In the past we have had to show a number of things that were incorrectly giving out the wrong numbers on many things for the devs to fix.

If you have been playing for awhile, you would know its rare for anything to change between Lamma and Live. Normally what's on Lamma goes straight to Live.

[Chauncey1]

LOL, so you're standing there too?

This individual just fails to understand that all the negativity we're receiving from certain players only strengthens our resolve and affirms that we are doing the right thing and in the right way.

I've seen this happen on other forums of the political variety.

[Chauncey1]

Funny thing: If we would have asked questions that don't target answers containing any numbers, we probably got an answer earlier:



I don't know English that very good to be able to detect if this is just a joke or a reason meant to be serious? English natives, please help me understand this.

I can't say for sure. I wasn't part of that particular conversation, so I don't know the context.

[Qhualor]

LOL....Keep kidding yourself that you are making a difference. I do enjoy watching you guys just stand there and waste your time.

I can tell you don't play DDO or you would see the difference has been made. What would your mother say if she saw you standing around with a bunch of protesters. Its easy to confuse you if you are standing with us.

[slarden]

If you have been playing for awhile, you would know its rare for anything to change between Lamma and Live. Normally what's on Lamma goes straight to Live.

Reincarnation was specifically excluded from the last Laminia release so there is no reason to think it was final. With this epic / iconic reincarnation process, it's clear the devs have been soliciting our feedback and adjusting course since the first post on it.

There is no chance Turbine every intended for us to run 500 hours of quests to get a heart through game play which is more time than it takes to cap all epic destines. Producer Glin's twitter feed supports that as does his forum posts. No, I don't think it was ever going to live that way.

I don't think the bridge protest is a bad thing, I just think we would be in the same place we are now without it. I want to see changes, but I don't think sitting on a bridge is going to persuade Turbine to make a change.