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  1. #1
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    Default Druid/Monk 'unarmed' rules

    There's so much ambiguity about the natural attacks of druids...
    Let's take a 13 druid / 6 monk / 1 fighter.
    I've plowed to most of it now and got the following understanding:

    At level 4 the unarmed strike goes from 1 W to 1.5 W. With monks this means 1.5[1d6] but to my understanding, when you ideally combine wolf and monk you take the 1d10 base from wolf form to get 1.5[1d10].

    Code:
         form     |   center   |   arms       : unarmed strike 1.5W |  flurry  |  reinforced fist  |  disciple of the fist
    A. normalform   centered     wraps        :     X                     X          X                   X                  
    B. normalform   centered     kama         :     -                     X          -                   -                  
    C. normalform   uncentered   wraps        :     -                     -          -                   -                  
    D. normalform   uncentered   kama         :     -                     -          -                   -                  
    E. wolf form    centered     wraps        :     X                     X          X                   X                  
    F. wolf form    centered     kama         :     X                     X          X(unsure)           X(unsure)          
    G. wolf form    uncentered   wraps        :     -                     -          X(unsure)           X(unsure)          
    H. wolf form    uncentered   kama         :     -                     -          X(unsure)           X(unsure)          
    I. wolf form    uncentered   sword&shield :     -                     -          X(unsure)           X(unsure)
    According to the forums, there could be a difference between practically unarmed (because of weapons transitioning to unarmed due to wolf form) and truly unarmed (because of actually wearing handwraps). But I haven't been able to locate this yet.

    Can someone who has actually tested this (or a dev who knows) confirm and complete this matrix?
    I think this table, when finished, covers most of the cases and would give sufficient insight in the workings of the game rules for me to update the wiki about them.

    Related, I assume:
    Monk stances just requires 'centered' so same as column 2
    Dance of flowers just requires 'centered' so same as column 2
    Last edited by Rull; 10-22-2013 at 11:06 AM.

  2. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rull View Post
    There's so much ambiguity about the natural attacks of druids...
    Let's take a 13 druid / 6 monk / 1 fighter.
    I've plowed to most of it now and got the following understanding:

    At level 4 the unarmed strike goes from 1 W to 1.5 W. With monks this means 1.5[1d6] but to my understanding, when you ideally combine wolf and monk you take the 1d10 base from wolf form to get 1.5[1d10].

    Code:
         form     |   center   |   arms       : unarmed strike 1.5W |  flurry  |  reinforced fist  |  disciple of the fist
    A. normalform   centered     wraps        :     X                     X          X                   X                  
    B. normalform   centered     kama         :     -                     X          -                   -                  
    C. normalform   uncentered   wraps        :     -                     -          -                   -                  
    D. normalform   uncentered   kama         :     -                     -          -                   -                  
    E. wolf form    centered     wraps        :     X                     X          X                   X                  
    F. wolf form    centered     kama         :     X                     X          X(unsure)           X(unsure)          
    G. wolf form    uncentered   wraps        :     -                     -          X(unsure)           X(unsure)          
    H. wolf form    uncentered   kama         :     -                     -          X(unsure)           X(unsure)          
    I. wolf form    uncentered   sword&shield :     -                     -          X(unsure)           X(unsure)
    According to the forums, there could be a difference between practically unarmed (because of weapons transitioning to unarmed due to wolf form) and truly unarmed (because of actually wearing handwraps). But I haven't been able to locate this yet.

    Can someone who has actually tested this (or a dev who knows) confirm and complete this matrix?
    I think this table, when finished, covers most of the cases and would give sufficient insight in the workings of the game rules for me to update the wiki about them.

    Related, I assume:
    Monk stances just requires 'centered' so same as column 2
    Dance of flowers just requires 'centered' so same as column 2
    I can't speak as to the differences between Druid animal form and unarmed fighting except to say that fighting unarmed has nothing to do with whether handwraps are equipped or not. Handwraps aren't weapons but augment an unarmed character's base damage as defined by feats and stats. The Monk simply gains natural fluidity in fighting and thus more damage from their bare hands than any other character that unequips their weapons and punches, handwraps or not. To see the difference, look for "weapon damage" on handwraps in comparison to a typical blade. You won't find that category. Any character can wear handwraps but cannot wear them and wield weapons. Nor can one wear a different handwraps set on a main or off-hand.

    The Wild Shape article on the DDO Wiki gives some comparisons and contrasts to how Monk levels and weapons affect Druid animal forms and might answer some of your questions.
    Editor, The Book of Syncletica 2nd Edition: An unofficial DDO Monk Guide, and Stormreach Shadows: An unofficial DDO Stealth Guide
    (Stormreach Shadows updates are in indefinite hiatus.)
    The Order of Syncletica: A DDO-flavored blog on Monks and gameplay and more

  3. #3
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Spencerian View Post
    I can't speak as to the differences between Druid animal form and unarmed fighting except to say that fighting unarmed has nothing to do with whether handwraps are equipped or not. Handwraps aren't weapons but augment an unarmed character's base damage as defined by feats and stats. The Monk simply gains natural fluidity in fighting and thus more damage from their bare hands than any other character that unequips their weapons and punches, handwraps or not. To see the difference, look for "weapon damage" on handwraps in comparison to a typical blade. You won't find that category. Any character can wear handwraps but cannot wear them and wield weapons. Nor can one wear a different handwraps set on a main or off-hand.

    The Wild Shape article on the DDO Wiki gives some comparisons and contrasts to how Monk levels and weapons affect Druid animal forms and might answer some of your questions.
    I know handwraps don't influence your unarmedness. The important question is whether kamas turned-into-a-natural-weapon do, for the purpose of reinforced fists / disciplie of the fist.

    I guess the other question is whether you need to be centered as well as unarmed for reinforced fists / disciple of the fist to work.

  4. #4
    Community Member Oxarhamar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rull View Post
    I know handwraps don't influence your unarmedness. The important question is whether kamas turned-into-a-natural-weapon do, for the purpose of reinforced fists / disciplie of the fist.

    I guess the other question is whether you need to be centered as well as unarmed for reinforced fists / disciple of the fist to work.
    reinforced fists / disciple of the fist effects Druid attacks in Wolf form no matter weather centered or not (at least when I last played a Druid)

  5. #5
    Community Member Munkenmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rull View Post
    I know handwraps don't influence your unarmedness. The important question is whether kamas turned-into-a-natural-weapon do, for the purpose of reinforced fists / disciplie of the fist.

    I guess the other question is whether you need to be centered as well as unarmed for reinforced fists / disciple of the fist to work.
    Animal form attacks count as unarmed no matter what weapon you're using.
    So long as you stay centered you can using stunning fist in animal form when equipped with a quarterstaves or kamas.
    If you equip say a great axe and become uncentered, your attacks still count as unarmed, but you can no longer be in a monk stance or use monk attacks.

    Sadly, it's not consistent though:

    If you're fighting in animal form equipped with kamas you will not get the disciple of fist +[w] increases.
    If you're fighting in animal form equipped with handwraps you do get the disciple of fist +[w] increases.

    the +[w] effect is boosting the animal forms 1d10, not a monk 1d6.

    As a wolf form druid / monk, I'll normally use a wooden quarterstaff in the lowest levels with shillelagh until I can equip my greensteel kama's, Handwraps don't really start pulling ahead till epic levels based on my experience.
    Last edited by fTdOmen; 11-08-2013 at 09:22 PM.

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