EK better suited for a splash than a primary build?

[Grace_ana]

Do you think the EK tree, as it stands currently, bring a meleeing sorcerer or wizard up to par with a full Kensei, rogue, barbarian, or monk?

If so, you should rethink your evaluation process. If not, do you believe that an extra +10 attack and damage would change that assessment?

Oh, I don't think the EK tree offers enough hit/damage options. I just don't think that making cha/int the controlling stat for those is the solution. Enhancement lines to boost both, something to increase BAB, spellsword being affected by spellpower would all be better options.

Huh??? I was saying its easy for OTHER stats to shift their function so why is Cha/Int discluded.

Already answered multiple times by myself and others. Shifting a melee stat on a melee toon (like dex instead of str on a rogue) is not even close to equivalent damage possible on a caster. And you cannot shift the function on any other casters. Clerics can't use wis as their melee stat. FVS can't use wis or cha as their melee stat. Druids can't use wis as their melee stat. Why should sorcs and wizards, both arguably more powerful in casting than any of the other casting classes, be able to consolidate their casting and melee stats? it makes zero sense.

[Failedlegend]

Artificers are spellcasters they can have Int

PDK can be ANY class including a spellcaster they can use Cha (which a Sorc would make great use of their

Not giving Sorc EKs Cha to Atk/DMG means all EK Sorcs need to be PDKs to be effective and not giving Wiz EKs Int to DMG means all EK Wizs need to have 3-6+ Lvls of Arty again limiting build versatily...if you want to force certain builds your playing the wrong game, build versatility is the lifeblood of DnD and DDO but maybe your not here for DnD or the multi-classing..again wrong game for you.

Also I know yes people have informed me of their opinions I have yet to hear any facts.

[Grace_ana]

Artificers are spellcasters they can have Int

PDK can be ANY class including a spellcaster they can use Cha (which a Sorc would make great use of their

Not giving Sorc EKs Cha to Atk/DMG means all EK Sorcs need to be PDKs to be effective and not giving Wiz EKs Int to DMG means all EK Wizs need to have 3-6+ Lvls of Arty again limiting build versatily...if you want to force certain builds your playing the wrong game, build versatility is the lifeblood of DnD and DDO but maybe your not here for DnD or the multi-classing..again wrong game for you.

Also I know yes people have informed me of their opinions I have yet to hear any facts.

You have an odd definition of the word "fact." You also make a lot of incorrect assumptions. Regardless, my statements stand. And don't compare arty spells to wiz/sorc spells in terms of damage output. It's just silly.

[Veriden]

Do you think the EK tree, as it stands currently, bring a meleeing sorcerer or wizard up to par with a full Kensei, rogue, barbarian, or monk?

If so, you should rethink your evaluation process. If not, do you believe that an extra +10 attack and damage would change that assessment?

it isn't supposed to be on par, there should never be a 'par'. It sacrifices 'on par' for the versatility and unique abilities. Testing a 12wiz/6mnk/2fighter build on lam b/c of this tree it does well enough. There those of us who enjoy difficulties below epic elite after all. Its about fun, nothing more nothing less. Elven Eldrich Wraith Knight ftw.

The tree could use a few tweaks yeah but still it is solid.

[droid327]

You have an odd definition of the word "fact." You also make a lot of incorrect assumptions. Regardless, my statements stand. And don't compare arty spells to wiz/sorc spells in terms of damage output. It's just silly.

It's a pretty unequivocal fact, though. Any caster-melee hybrid class that can use casting stat for to-hit and dmg is going to grossly outperform any caster-melee hybrid with split stats. Especially since Arcane spells are so strongly DC based, moreso than Divine spells for melee FVS, for instance. The advantages for going PDK EK Sorc or Arti EK Wiz would always, always outweigh the benefits of going pure Wiz or Sorc EDK. In essence, you're putting essential components of a viable EK concept in OTHER classes'/races' trees.

And no one said anything about Arti spell DPS? He was talking about the only way to get INT- and CHA-to-dmg currently is with PDK (CHA) and Insightful Damage (INT, Arti 6).

[Failedlegend]

It's a pretty unequivocal fact, though. Any caster-melee hybrid class that can use casting stat for to-hit and dmg is going to grossly outperform any caster-melee hybrid with split stats. Especially since Arcane spells are so strongly DC based, moreso than Divine spells for melee FVS, for instance. The advantages for going PDK EK Sorc or Arti EK Wiz would always, always outweigh the benefits of going pure Wiz or Sorc EDK. In essence, you're putting essential components of a viable EK concept in OTHER classes'/races' trees.

Indeed without a high Caster stat an Arcane Melee just becomes a crappy melee...whats the point in a hybrid if you can't cast spells?

Like I said before and like Droid says here all not giving EK Cha/Int to Atk/DMG does is force them to pick PDK or Arty Respectively. Making a single-class EK pointless and limiting build versatility immensely.

And no one said anything about Arti spell DPS? He was talking about the only way to get INT- and CHA-to-dmg currently is with PDK (CHA) and Insightful Damage (INT, Arti 6).

This ^^^

[Failedlegend]

FoS Post

I wanted to drop in and thank everyone for the great feedback!

Squeak's compiled all of it for me in a very shiny e-mail with graphs and charts and all the best bells and whistles.

We'll be evaluating it early next week with an eye for selecting some things as action items to improve before this tree goes live.

[MagicBlade]

Lvl 12 Core is a good spot since Wizards get it at 11 and Sorcs at 12 than replace its tier 5 spot with "Improved Tensers" or as the capstone maybe.

Here's what I'm thinking

Core 1 Eldritch Strike (gets better with each core) +0.5 USP and +1 Force Power per pt spent
Core 3 Cha or Int Atk/DMG (multi-selector to try avoiding bugs of only one working), +10 Force SP
Core 6 Spellsword (choosing element works exactly like the Arty buff "Elemental Weapons), +10 Force SP
Core 12 Tensers Toggle, +10 Force SP
Core 18 Heavy Armor Prof & Tower Shield Prof, +10 Force SP
Core 20 Immunity to ASF, +25 Force SP

Tier 1

- Improved Mage Armor OR Light/Medium Armor Prof and ASF Reduction
- Item Defense: 25%/50%/75% to negate item wear
- Toughness: 5/10/15 HP
- Battlemage: +1 Concen/Intim/Balance



Tier 2

- Improved Shield OR General Shield Proficiency and ASF Reduction
- TWF, THF, Shield Mastery or Eldritch Combatant (bonus when using 1-handed weapon and wizard orb) multi-selector choose one
- Martial Weapon Prof & 3/6/10% Doublestrike
- Wand and Scroll Mastery +25/50/75% & +1/2/3 DC

Tier 3

- +1 Any Stat
- Improved Battle Mage (Feats treat you as if you were an equal level fighter and have full BAB for the purpose of pre-reqs)
- Eldritch Barrier (SLA similar to Arty's Radiant Force Shield...cooldown 12min/6min/3min seconds duration 30 seconds + 6 seconds per level...Metas: Quicken & Extend)

Tier 4

- ITWF, ITHF, Improved Shield Mastery or Improved Eldritch Combatant (multi-selector choose one)
- + 1 Any Stats
- Force Feedback (5/10/15% chance to do Force damage on-hit)
- Still Spell (-5/10/15% Spell Failure)

Tier 5

- GTWF, GTHF, Improved Shield Bash or Perfect Eldritch Combatant (multi-selector choose one)
- Master Battlemage (Doubles the effectiveness of the Extend Metamagic...requires Extend)
- Improved Tenser's Toggle (reduces penalties and increase benefits)
- Eldritch Tempest

Not really sure what to do with the Eldritch Combatant but following other prestige classes would work.

Maybe something like this

EC: +X to enhancement bonus for the Wizard Orb and your 1-handed weapon
IEC: +1 to Crit range, Any 1-handed weapon is treated as a implement
PEC: Allow Spellpower to apply to your weapon effects.

X= no idea, any suggestions...maybe 1/4 character level?

Maybe limit to 1-h "Sword-like" weapons?? (Longsword,Shortsword, B-Sword, and Scimitar)

I'd actually have to say I agree with you in regards to the tree you listed, it'd make far more sense. The Shield Spell OR Armor.. and such, they shouldn't include both. And I'd say to make up for the lack of armor/shield, they should increase the Shield Spells to be = or close to the same armor they could have. Personally, the way I would do it... maybe 10-15 AC lower than Armor + Shield, but 5-10% Movement/Attack Speed without armor (lighter weight)