Eldritch Knight Enhancements

[HatsuharuZ]

Yeah I don't think the devs can do it either, probably annoying to code and would trip out when you reset your enhancements to tweak things...wishful thinking :P Any suggestions for improved battlemage?

Improved Battlemage: Your touch-ranged spells no longer have a level cap.

OR

2/4/6% doublestrike.

OR

An orb in your off-hand is treated as a small shield for the purposes of PRR and blocking DR.

[Failedlegend]

Improved Battlemage: Your touch-ranged spells no longer have a level cap.

Hmmm thematic and useful...I like it

[HatsuharuZ]

Hmmm thematic and useful...I like it

Thanks~

the first level "touch range" spells are the ones that no one uses, since one of the advantages of being a sorcerer or wizard is to attack from range. But for an EK, who uses melee weapons? These could be very useful.

[Failedlegend]

Thanks~

the first level "touch range" spells are the ones that no one uses, since one of the advantages of being a sorcerer or wizard is to attack from range. But for an EK, who uses melee weapons? These could be very useful.

Well I've added it to my tree mock-up as part of the eldritch combatant line

[Elmwalker]

So this is melee only? I was having visions of an Eldritch Archer. Mass Hold Person/Monster then Manyshot. Right now I have a character that is 2nd life wizard. I am trying to build towards the EK. He was, long ago, a fighter/wiz split to do my own version of a Spellsword. It didn't work amazingly, but he made it by. This was way before MotU and such, so now it might work better. either way. I am considering tr'ing into a FVS, and then back to wiz for EK when it's released. I also have my +20 heart available. My vision is to basically only have force spells as offensive, and the rest all holds, charms, what nots to CC before wading into combat. Any suggestions where to go from here?

[HatsuharuZ]

So this is melee only? I was having visions of an Eldritch Archer. Mass Hold Person/Monster then Manyshot. Right now I have a character that is 2nd life wizard. I am trying to build towards the EK. He was, long ago, a fighter/wiz split to do my own version of a Spellsword. It didn't work amazingly, but he made it by. This was way before MotU and such, so now it might work better. either way. I am considering tr'ing into a FVS, and then back to wiz for EK when it's released. I also have my +20 heart available. My vision is to basically only have force spells as offensive, and the rest all holds, charms, what nots to CC before wading into combat. Any suggestions where to go from here?

Arcane Archer is available. And with wizard, feats aren't much of a problem.

Oh, I think it would be hard to be good at ranged, melee and casting all at once. Might want to pick 2 and ignore the third.

[burningwind]

Arcane Archer is available. And with wizard, feats aren't much of a problem.

Oh, I think it would be hard to be good at ranged, melee and casting all at once. Might want to pick 2 and ignore the third.

which is why they should make the sorc little more powerful... or change this prestige to dragon disciple and give it to the bard/sorc.

[HatsuharuZ]

which is why they should make the sorc little more powerful...

More powerful how?

or change this prestige to dragon disciple and give it to the bard/sorc.

I would love that.

[Elmwalker]

Arcane Archer is available. And with wizard, feats aren't much of a problem.

Oh, I think it would be hard to be good at ranged, melee and casting all at once. Might want to pick 2 and ignore the third.

Yea, the thought was Ranged EK. However if it is all about the Eldritch Strike, which is melee, then I fear losing a good portion of it's viability. Maybe I will break down and DL lamma to test it out.

[burningwind]

More powerful how?

like someone have suggested on this post. give out various feat only on the sorc tree. (twf, thf, shield line)

[HatsuharuZ]

like someone have suggested on this post. give out various feat only on the sorc tree. (twf, thf, shield line)

Your post reminded me that sorcerers are proficient with *all* simple weapons, while wizards are not.

The tree doesn't need different lines for sorcs and wizards, in that case, just one line that makes you proficient with all martials weapons if your character is already proficient with all simple weapons. Otherwise, you can select a weapon group, similar to how Kensai pick a weapon group.

[Failedlegend]

FoS Post

I wanted to drop in and thank everyone for the great feedback!

Squeak's compiled all of it for me in a very shiny e-mail with graphs and charts and all the best bells and whistles.

We'll be evaluating it early next week with an eye for selecting some things as action items to improve before this tree goes live.

[Gabrion]

I guess from the dev response in this thread it's probably too late to change their minds, but as someone who started playing melee arcanes back when the level cap was 12, I'm adding some thoughts just because the addition of EK is a potential godsend for my favorite character types and the current incarnation is sadly lacking. There have been a lot of good responses here, so for the sake of order, I've split this post into two parts. First, a few "meta-issues" that I think need to be seriously considered for a prestige like this to work. Second, specific recommendations in order of what I think are most important.

Meta-issues

1. Purity/Multiclassing/Splashing: My personal opinion is that EK should be an enhancement line that works best the more levels of sorc/wiz you have. It should not be a front-loaded line that actually works better as a splash for other melee dps builds to pick up some perks. Two thoughts about this:
   
   
   • Core Enhancements: These are what traditionally motivate a builder to use more levels in a given class, as the other enhancements can usually be obtained with just a dip. The current elemental toggles are so underwhelming not only because they are possibly the laziest and least imaginative enhancements in the game, but because the don't create the same type of incentive to take further sorc/wiz levels as many other lines do. Compare to pale master, which has been commonly used in melee oriented "gish" builds. The core enhancements are stark, offer clear benefits, and give a real reason to make it at least to lvl 12, while also making the builder wonder if going all the way to 18 for lich is worth it. I understand EK cores also have passives attached to each tier, but 2% doublestrike, +10 force power, and -5% ASF is so lackluster it's crazy. As many have said, the elemental toggles should all be wrapped in one enhancement (keeping it the second core is fine). The others need to be reworked with something new and interesting that really motivates people who want this style of character to say "well I at least need level 6, level 12, or level 18." For the sake of completeness on this point, I like Eldritch Strike. Eldritch Blade is weak, as many have pointed out. More on that in specifics below.
     
   • Linked progression: One development problem is that any ability that greatly enhances an arcane's melee prowess needs to be placed relatively early in the tree in order of such a build to be playable from early on, but that makes high impact enhancements ripe for cherry picking for people who want to splash. A good solution is linking enhancements to further progression in wiz/sorc. Simple language added to such abilities could simply cap the benefit they confer by the level of sorc/wiz the character has.
   
   
2. Atttack/Damage Mods: Alternatives stats to attack/dmg have been around for a while now. While I agree with the crowd saying that people just need to get used to it, I also sympathize with the notion that letting a caster add his main stat to attack/dmg with weapons is extremely powerful when you consider how that stat impacts such a character, compared to how STR for instance impacts a barbarian. This is compounded further by the issues above of multi-class splash. If you can pick up +cha to hit/dmg with two levels of sorc, many paladins will do exactly that (ya ya, I know PDK is out there, but not everyone has access to it, current TR issues, etc).
   
   
   • Option 1: I personally think the best option is from my idea above of linking progression. For instance, have a tier one enhancement that adds INT/CHA to attack/dmg, up to a limit of the highest level wiz/sorc spell you can cast. This would stack with the regular modifier to attack/dmg (STR/DEX depending on multi-class, race, or whatever), which would still allow for the builds that prioritize those other stats and would boost their melee capability nicely, all at a consistent rate of level up. With this I would recommend a passive added to the capstone that uncaps the INT/CHA contribution to attack/damage, but replaces the primary stat that would normally contribute.
   • Option 2: For those who want a simply +X stat to attack/dmg early in the tree, I would recommend make it just +attack, not +dmg. This would be enough to make sure gishes could be effective in melee in the sense that their attacks would consistently hit, but without giving them ridiculous dmg. And it wouldn't make that great of a splash pick up for other classes who don't want to split their primary stat for attack/dmg, which is less of an issue for gishes since their dmg is greatly enhanced by spells.
   
   
3. Wiz/Sorc disparity: I think the EK lines for the two classes need to have some major differences. If three of the core enhancements are freed up by consolidating the elemental toggles (again, this needs to happen), then the cores could be the place to put some interesting enhancements that are tailored toward the sorc gish vs wiz gish. Sorcs biggest problem is lack of feats compared to wiz, so maybe these would be enhancements that give specific boosts to each style of weapon combat (TWF, THF, S+B). I would go so far as to say that these enhancements for a sorc should be attractive enough that they could effectively TWF without the TWF line (same for the others). For the wizard side of the house, I'm not sure what the equivilant should be...maybe something that makes them more spell point efficient, since that's what they lack compared to sorcerers.
   
   
4. Coherence: This is mainly about the -ASF components included in EK. As others have pointed out, they just don't make a lot of sense. PnP had a lot of gish options...some were built around the use of armor while casting, others were not. In DDO, I don't really think the former makes much sense. Sure you can use EK as written to run around with full plate and a shield, but you really haven't accomplished much. This is mostly because of how AC works in the game. I think the whole concept would be more coherent if the -ASF component was nixed in favor of what an EK in DDO should be centered around - magical abilities that enhance [relevant] martial components. The usage of shields in EK also faces this issue. On some level it seems like the devs think a wiz/sorc gish is meant to be using one weapon and a shield...after all, they give shield proficiency, chance to shield bash when hit, and temp hit points while using a shield, and -ASF. So they obviously want EKs using a good old fashion shield. The problem is that a shield is an item primarily used to boost AC (and DR when blocking), which is not what DDO gishes rely on for defense. They use buffs (displacement, stoneskin, concealment, etc) to shore up the fact that they will never be AC tanks.

Specific Recommendations (in order of importance)

1. Anti-dispel mechanic: This should be priority #1 for any gish centered enhancement line. Wizards and Sorcerers who play this style rely on their buffs to be effective, unlike their counterparts. They still fall behind in terms of actually melee output, but that has always been good since they bring so much versatility through spells. What is not good is that they can be totally crippled by dispels. Add somewhere (see below for an idea) and enhancement that has 33%/66%/100% chance to ignore a dispel effect that would otherwise be successful.
   
   
2. Toggle consolidation: Others have pointed out, but I'll just echo. Make all the toggle elementals one ability. If you absolutely must split them, do it as multiple enhancement selectors in the main part of the tree, not as core abilities. As I pointed out above, the current cores do nothing to really push the envelope on taking more wiz/sorc levels, which is what cores should do IMO. This is second in importance not because the elemental toggles themselves are so important, but because core enhancements for 6, 12, and 18 need to be freed up.
   
   
3. Shield/Mage Armor SLAs: Feather's response was so sad. It's fine if you want these SLAs to be more about their secondary effect that actually having a shield/mage armor spell active. It's not fine that you think the AC boost or PRR will matter that much. I recommend the above idea (anti-dispel mechanic) be added to the mage armor SLA. I recommend the shield SLA gives a retributive force dmg effect that increases with spell power.
   
   
4. Capstone: So weak it hurts...except it's so weak it can't really hurt (even after the addition of some force dmg while active). Having relatively low up time is one problem, but the real one (as others have pointed out) is that the player has very little control over it. At the very least it should allow an activate to use after the requisite number of Eldritch Strikes have been used. Better yet, just replace it with something better. Remember that characters who have this enhancement have foregone other capstones to get one that in theory applies to a pretty unorthodox play style. One big limitation here is that anyone who reaches this capstone will not be able to pick up GTWF/GTHF because of the +11 BAB requirement. I know from the enhancement lines the devs are pushing the shield style on EKs, but I think that is wrong (outlined above) and if in some magical world they opened this line up to other combat styles, the capstone would be the perfect place to add in TWF/THF perks to make up for the lack of those feats.
   
   
5. Heavy Armor Proficiency: If they insist on enough -ASF enhancements that an EK could easily wear full plate, they should add proficiency.
   
   
6. Tensor's Toggle: Small issue, but I don't think this should have a mana cost...it should effectively be like a stance. If you are in a scenario where you just want to cast spells, toggle off. Want to mix it up melee...turn it on.

[voodoogroves]

Frankly, if you want to make folks interested, you need to give it some oomph. I like moving the damage toggles into the enhancement line itself, similar to Henshin Mystic. Put other items in the auto-grants (at at least one more strike). Something like ....

Granted Abilities
1 - Move Improved Armor here
3 - Add the current L1 strike here
6 - Move Improved Shield here
9 - Put a strike of some sort here - single target with big x[w] or with a cc, debuff or stack effect - or a strike that only does 1[w] but has a chance to proc temp SP
12 - Tensers here
18 - Move L20 Eldritch Power here; drop melee damage boost to 5%
20 - Transform Kinetic Energy; also increase the melee damage boost from Eldritch Power to 10%

- Add a SP-based defensive boost to the tree on T1 as a toggle. Make it cancel the weapon toggles, still drain SP but do something crazy like grant Life Shield, Elemental Absorption, something.
- Add a T2 ability to make attacks bypass Incorporeal


Dunno.

[HatsuharuZ]

I agree that making the elemental damage toggles into core abilities was a bad idea.

I also think that the capstone should be a passive ability that is always on, not a temporary ability whose activation cannot be controlled.

[Janisis]

Does any of the weapon buffs / special attacks work with handwraps?

[Leclaire1]

Hate to say it as much as I like the concept this just cant work Wizards and Sorcerers don't have enough BAB to take the TWF or THF feats and have to wait till 15+ for Improved Critical.

If you want a Wizard or Sorcerer to play like a melee they need to be able to pick on one of TWF or THF feat lines. Even with Heavy multi-classing 12 Wizard/ 8 Fighter it will be hard to fit the feet you need in at the right levels. This thing could do it but its still only max BAB of 14.

I would suggest adding one of the TWF, THF or a choice of feat lines virtually to the core enh (1,6,12 or 3,12,18). Virtually meaning you don't actually get the feat so If you're a 3 Eldritch Knight 8 Kensei you would still need to take the real feat to pick up the next one in the line.

Or lower remove BAB requirement on the THF and TWF feats and replace them with character level requirements.

I think these are incredibly valid critiques assuming the intent of the devs is to have full wizards running like melees. Its possible there are different aims in mind however. When druids came out many melee druids dumped wisdom for str and found themselves gimped. As it turned out, the wisdom for the DCs on animal spells was far more important even to a wolf melee druid than a few more points of strength. While I can't say for certain, my suspicion is that the intent is for this to play a little differently. As such, and eldritch knight would never replace a fighter or barb in a party, but this gives him enough damage to at least play as reliable support DPS while still having full casting capabilities. A nuker/fighter stule EK would be able to supplement his lower general DPS output with spells and buffs. Another EK might use his/her melee options to conserve sp for CC purposes. If this is the intent, than we have something more interesting going on, and we don't need to worry about not having some feats which are critical to standard melee builds.

I'm also kind of disappointed to not see an ability allowing the usage of Int/Cha for at the very least attack, if not also damage, with a group of weapons. This could be all weapons, or weapons tied to the aforementioned combat style selection (two-handed weapons, one-handed weapons, one-handed weapons and shields), or could have a requirement of Weapon Focus and then a Kensei-style enhancement to narrow down you selection.

Yeah, either way I think we definitely need a INT/CHA to damage option. This really isn't optional, that extra damage is required for relevance. My caster cleric will only occasionally melee with Forgotten Light, because while he'll still never be even close to optimal, swinging without the damage bonus is just outright painful. The permi-attack bonus from Tenser's only helps the attack, so I think to make this even worth taking on a caster we definitely need this damage option.

[Twinkly]

Yeah, either way I think we definitely need a INT/CHA to damage option. This really isn't optional, that extra damage is required for relevance. My caster cleric will only occasionally melee with Forgotten Light, because while he'll still never be even close to optimal, swinging without the damage bonus is just outright painful. The permi-attack bonus from Tenser's only helps the attack, so I think to make this even worth taking on a caster we definitely need this damage option.

It's an EK. Don't dump strength. And I disagree with that option, unless this PrE isn't supposed to be used in conjunction with Tenser's.

That aside, it seems to me that there is a conflict in the defensive aspect of the concept of this PrE. EK's tend to be wizards. Wizards tend to be warforged or palemaster. In either case, wizards tend to use tensers transformation. Wizards also tend to cast either reconstruct or negative energy burst to help support their meleeing. Tensers transformation makes it more difficult by doubling the cooldown time of self healing spells, working against the meleeing concept. Wizards already have increased cooldown times compared to sorc. It would be great if EK included an enhancement that reduces the cooldown time of repair spells per rank to to counter the penalty of Tensers. That will make the PrE concept work more smoothly.

Also, Eldritch Shield could use a buff.

On the offensive side, I'm concerned that the bonuses seem a bit weak for the investment, and also that they may not scale enough with content.
Eldritch strike may do decent damage, but it's got a pretty long ass cooldown for a primary melee attack. And there isn't really anything else that stands out.

[Twinkly]

Improved Battlemage:
[...]
An orb in your off-hand is treated as a small shield for the purposes of PRR and blocking DR.

Now that. Would be a neat addition. Although, I'd argue for a large shield instead. It would even go well with the blocking animation of the orb (large shield). Also, that should be combined with "Also, equipped also provide the same bonuses that orbs do."

[Seikojin]

Indeed! About time I can make a spellsword! It will be interesting to see how some special builds can add these buffs to their arsenal.