Quest XP Changes for Update 20

[mrtweakin]

Really happy to hear something is being done with quest XP.

The list of decreases is a little odd. I could name (but I wont) a good many quests that have WAY too much XP in them- none of those 4 would be on the list (or even close, honestly).

The list of increases is good. Really pleased with House C being on there. I absolutely dread doing those quests to flag, the XP is just awful.

[Kaytis]

Desecrated Temple of Vol

This is literally the only quest in Necro 4 I run on most lives. Necro 4 may be joining Cannith in the never run category.

However, it is nice to see some boosts elsewhere -in particular Cannith and Amrath.

The 500 lb Gorilla in the room though: at level 17, when working over the huge xp hump from 18 to 19 for a third-lifer, there are only 10 level 15 quests to run (some of which are in EveningStar which may not be accessible without the key). We need some more. The general practice at 17 is to get to 19, take 18 and hit Vale. 18 to 19 (while staying at 17) is without a doubt the worst phase of TR'ing.

Admittedly times are changing. I gave up and hit Vale shortly after taking 17 last time, took 18 early and used level 20 friends to pike up to 20. But there really does need to be more level 15 quests, because there just aren't as many compared to the rest of the levels. It would help balance things out.

[sephiroth1084]

First, NO QUESTS SHOULD HAVE THEIR XP NERFED. We all know that Turbine does not know how to make a minor downward tweak to anything, and overdoing it will just make for player resentment and more work for the devs down the road. Really, other than a handful of quests spread throughout the game with ridiculous XP, nothing is so far out of line that it should have it's XP reduced. Temple of Vol and the IQ2 quests do not fall under that heading. Leave them be.

There are some quests on that list that should not have their base XP improved, but really need the XP granted for completing optionals boosted. Bargain of Blood is one of them.

As I've said elsewhere, the dev team should really come up with a sort of baseline they want for quest XP by level, then adjust up or down from there based on length and difficulty of the quest, looking toward number of at-level completions required to go from the beginning of that level to the end.

In that vein, all of the Amrath quests need their XP improved, and most epic quests (especially the ones that have heroic-level equivalents) need their XP improved as well once you consider the incredible about XP required to get from level 20-28 and the relative dearth of quests available in that level range, then add to that the absolutely ridiculous amount of XP needed to work on twists of fate (read: the only real endgame DDO has right now). Erring on the side of too much, especially for longish quests, is probably the best course of action.

[dragon2fire]

Nerfing vol sigh.....and iq2 ....Its funny to me that you say your not trying to punish players that can complete these things quickly with out exploiting ...cause with vol especially that is what you are doing.

[danotmano1998]

Odd,

I remember discussions about changing the XP requirements for TR's and that curve.
How do these changes fit with the already proposed changes Turbine has mentioned?

Will it be both? or will that plan be abandoned in favor of more specific tweaks to quests?

[Spoonwelder]

I would suggest you share the 'formula' with us - not the x+y2/6*(z-1) formula but the general scheme/theme of the xp formulation.

From your OP verbage it looks like the designation as long/medium/short has a factor in the calculation. But also from the changes you appear to be planning it looks like overall quest/map mileage may be (or is going to become) a factor.

A quest that is splittable (ie. Vol) vs. one that is linear but where the overall total length is similar will always be better XP/min for a good group but will not have any affect on a soloist (or non-self sufficient duos).

A quest with a weak trash and a hard end fight vs moderate to hard trash and an easy end fight (say Madstone vs. PoP. Note Madstone rarely gets run to ransack - POP will be farmed.

Optional XP availability - does this have an effect....say Chains of Flame - some 90% of base available in the optionals but SUUUUPER long quest versus OOB - no optionals but short and forced zerg. Chains also has lower base XP (Why?). Note also both are listed as "Very Long'. OOB is easily done sub 20min - Chains is double that.....I think you need a new designator - 'Effing Long'.


The point - understanding the formula in general terms will help us provide better feedback.

[Vargouille]

We are still planning some changes to the XP Curves, including consideration for 2nd and 3rd lives.

To clarify, most of these decisions have been based on making focused changes to known trouble areas, such as targeting some particular character levels and content, and are based on actual XP earned by players and quest completion times.

[oradafu]

We are still planning some changes to the XP Curves, including consideration for 2nd and 3rd lives.

To clarify, most of these decisions have been based on making focused changes to known trouble areas, such as targeting some particular character levels and content, and are based on actual XP earned by players and quest completion times.

If it's known trouble areas, why would you nerf Vol since there are only 10 quests at that level? Look at the list of quests at level 14, they are all Necro4 and GH flagging quests, not exactly fast quests. Yet Vol gets an XP nerf, while those quests stay the same?!

You know, sometimes it's nice to have a quest with okay XP that you can turn your brain off for a bit. And as someone else pointed out, the end fight can be a bit rough for the unprepared since you're getting spammed Commanded.

[Spoonwelder]

We are still planning some changes to the XP Curves, including consideration for 2nd and 3rd lives.

To clarify, most of these decisions have been based on making focused changes to known trouble areas, such as targeting some particular character levels and content, and are based on actual XP earned by players and quest completion times.

Please share your analysis with us....first because it would be interesting. Second so we can provide live player related analysis to the why's and wherefore's of some of the data you are seeing.

Ie. if you are seeing that Vol needs a nerf because it is run so fast on average and so often and that makes it a target for nerfing....read some of the above posts and you will see some of the reasoning. Any quest designed with a splittable point will always be completed faster than ones that are not - BUT there is more risk (usually) in splitting up. So that is a risk/reward benefit. Also we will comment on the affect that it will have on solo/duoists....etc......

At worst we will feel heard about this at best we may provide actual insight to improve the decision making process.

[droid327]

Yeah I agree with everyone else who says the problem isn't with Vol, the problem is with the other 3 Necro IV quests, which are either extremely convoluted, to the point you just run it formulaically rather than actually playing it (Inferno), or contain a near-impossible mechanic to solo (Fleshmaker, at the end), or an inordinately tough boss fight (Ghosts, which is the least offensive of the three).

If your data is showing Vol is getting run way more than the other three, that's why. People like to grind through Heroic mostly solo.

We are still planning some changes to the XP Curves, including consideration for 2nd and 3rd lives.

To clarify, most of these decisions have been based on making focused changes to known trouble areas, such as targeting some particular character levels and content, and are based on actual XP earned by players and quest completion times.

Overall its a net positive, I think. Just be careful when you're interpreting your "real player" data - correlation is not causation, don't just assume that because a quest stands out as giving lots of XP to lots of players, that its because its XP is not properly proportional.

[Cetus]

Nerfing vol makes no sense, but in its entirety the picture looks good

[mikarddo]

Since the XP Ransack and Saga features came out in Update 19, we’ve continued to examine ways to improve our XP systems.

- PurpleFooz – Lead Designer

If you want this done right you probably should enlist the help of some of the more knowledgeable players. Might I suggest that you secretly enlist the help of say 8 players whom has shown a great deal of knowledge about the game (not me I can assure you) by posting here on these forums (I could name a few but thats not the point here). You then ask each of them to list in order the 50 heroic quests that need more xp as well as the 20 quests in order that give too much xp. Those 8 posters submit their lists in privacy and without knowing who the other 7 are. You then compare those lists and make your decisions on a much more informed basis.

Apart from that I think you should look long and hard at upgrading optional xp across the board. Make those optionals worth running - unlike now where many of them are simply ignored because they give mediocre xp.

Finally, you should make the xp curve on 2nd and 3rd+ lives similar to the xp curve on 1st life. 2nd live would simply be 65% more xp than 1st live on each level and 3rd life 130% xp more than 1st life. Better yet, make it +50% and another +50% cumulative, making 3rd life +125% of 1st life. This would be a nice simply system and spread the xp need out more making the last few heroic levels much less painful.

[sirgog]

Suggestion 1: Uncouple elite XP from normal and hard XP.

Someone did the numbers and established that you use a formula for XP per quest, where heroic XP = 500 + (modified quest level)*(a quest-specific constant based on perceived length and difficulty); and epic XP is the same except with 8000 instead of 500, and the constant is 2.5 times the heroic one. (Casual is 60% of that).

This should not be based on a formula. Many quests take far longer on Elite than Hard, and a good number take significantly longer on Hard than Normal.

As an example, consider Mindsunder run in a typical PUG.

On Normal, the mobs have 600-1000hp and mediocre saves. A level 18 group can blitz the quest almost at max running speed, slowing only slightly for some rooms.
On Hard, they have enough HP and saves to not just fall over every time a DBF is thrown. A level 18 group likely takes 2-3 minutes longer than Normal (unless they massively outgear the quest).
On Elite, most groups (excluding multiple caster groups that are geared for zerging) take three times as long as Normal.

However, the base XP (which is, beyond first runs, the most important factor) only varies by ~5% from N to H or from H to E despite completion time varying much more than that.

This dynamic should be fixed so that a content designer can manually set base XP numbers for one difficulty independently of the others. (This is even more important for epic levels as some quests take significantly different times to complete on heroic and epic, notably VON1 which is much longer on Epic than Heroic, and Big Top which is much shorter on epic than heroic, and also because the EH to EE gulf is so large).


Suggestion 2: Pick some quests that aren't run much now but that you want to showcase, and give them VON3 levels of XP.

Take a poll of the devs asking 'Which quest are you most proud of designing?'. Get the answers and inflate them to over-the-curve XP levels. Blown to Bits should definitely be on this list.

Players will get sick of them in time, but a change is always welcome.


Suggestion 3: Up the XP award from raids significantly, both the hard ones and also the easy ones.

DDO is a social experience, and raids are as social as you can get. More people running at-level Shrouds, VODs, Tempest Spines, Twilight Forges and so on can only be a good thing.

For the raids that are part 1 of a two part raid (Twilight Forge, VON5) - give the big XP boost to part 2 not part 1.

[sirgog]

Count me as somewhat surprised about DToV. It's not even the best XP/min in its pack at its level - the amount of ground you need to cover and the priests appearing behind gates often makes it a 6-6.25 min zerg, while GOP is a 3.25-4 min zerg and an outstanding group can do Inferno in 4.75-5.25 min (no side chests, no shrining, splitting up).

There are several other quests conspicuously missing from that list to get their XP improved. Hold for Reinforcements, Chains of Flame and Servants of the Overlord chief among them.

[Fnordian]

Only recently have we been able to change base XP without altering the amount of favor that players have already earned. We’ve also crossed the hurdle of being able to do it without breaking the formulas for increasing XP with higher difficulties, or with playing in Epic mode.

On a related note, is there any chance of adding favor for the additional Threnal quests that currently don't appear in the Compendium and currently don't grant any favor?

• The Giant Lieutenants
• The Giants' Lair
• The Giants' Supplies
• The Threnal Arena

While short, these are still proper quests, so really they should grant at least a little bit of favor, should they not? (It's true they're short but there are a number of short quests that do grant favor, e.g., the Haverdasher quest.)

So...any chance?

[dlsidhe]

We are still planning some changes to the XP Curves, including consideration for 2nd and 3rd lives.

To clarify, most of these decisions have been based on making focused changes to known trouble areas, such as targeting some particular character levels and content, and are based on actual XP earned by players and quest completion times.

Here's my suggestion - instead of having the crazy exponential increase on 2nd and 3rd lives, increase the total XP needed by a given percent, then retroactively divide that up so the relative percentage per level is the same as a first life.

As an example, let's say that a second life is 150% of a first life, so 2,850,000XP to 20. Total XP to level 2 on a first life is 5,000; or ~.26% of the total XP needed. Thus, the total XP to level 2 on a second life would be ~7500, which is a steeper increase at low levels, but there's abundant XP at low levels. 19-20 on a first life is 10% of the total XP, so under this suggestion a second life toon would need 285,000XP from 19 to 20, or 57,000XP/bubble vs the current 74,100XP/bubble. Then make a third life or more 200% of base, or 3,800,000XP total, which for 19-20 translates to 380,000 total XP, or 76,000XP/bubble vs 110,400XP/bubble, but makes going from 1 to 2 a total of ~9880XP, or almost double the current total. The curve becomes flatter, vets spend longer at lower levels (which, for me at least, makes it more likely I'll help newer players since I'll be rerunning a quest a few times, anyway), grind in low-XP segments gets better, and everyone can go disco dancing in front of the Marketplace entrance from the Harbor.

[sirgog]

Here's my suggestion - instead of having the crazy exponential increase on 2nd and 3rd lives, increase the total XP needed by a given percent, then retroactively divide that up so the relative percentage per level is the same as a first life.

As an example, let's say that a second life is 150% of a first life, so 2,850,000XP to 20. Total XP to level 2 on a first life is 5,000; or ~.26% of the total XP needed. Thus, the total XP to level 2 on a second life would be ~7500, which is a steeper increase at low levels, but there's abundant XP at low levels. 19-20 on a first life is 10% of the total XP, so under this suggestion a second life toon would need 285,000XP from 19 to 20, or 57,000XP/bubble vs the current 74,100XP/bubble. Then make a third life or more 200% of base, or 3,800,000XP total, which for 19-20 translates to 380,000 total XP, or 76,000XP/bubble vs 110,400XP/bubble, but makes going from 1 to 2 a total of ~9880XP, or almost double the current total. The curve becomes flatter, vets spend longer at lower levels (which, for me at least, makes it more likely I'll help newer players since I'll be rerunning a quest a few times, anyway), grind in low-XP segments gets better, and everyone can go disco dancing in front of the Marketplace entrance from the Harbor.

[Random nitpick]:

The formula for XP is not exponential, it's cubic (on 34/36 point builds) and quadratic on 32/28.

[/random nitpick]

Should be quadratic on both, with 34 pointers requiring 160% of base XP requirements and 36 pointers 220% for each level.

[Shmuel]

Shadowfell quests might be included in the 2nd phase. Hopefully.

Yes, Shadowfell XP is ridiculously bad, especially the stormhorns quests. should be 4-5 times as much at least.

[RandomFireGuy]

i have to say, i have no problem with the changes to the quests altered. no negative feelings about this update

[dlsidhe]

[Random nitpick]:

The formula for XP is not exponential, it's cubic (on 34/36 point builds) and quadratic on 32/28.

[/random nitpick]

Should be quadratic on both, with 34 pointers requiring 160% of base XP requirements and 36 pointers 220% for each level.

Point taken, I should've looked at the graphs first. I think we end at the same general point, but take differing routes.