Mr Sticky Buddy (13Rog/6M/1druid Halfling) concept for comparison to H-ORC STR build

[Inoukchuk]

stats (halfling 13Rog/6M/1druid):
STR 14 (needed: PA:13 at 2, THF:15 at 5, ITHF:17 at 15)
DEX 20
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 8
on 34pt build lower str to 13 if you have +4 tome, on 32 lower wis to 8 also
Easily swaps to elf if you prefer shadow (displacement) to healing/saves

progression/feats:
1 - R - dragonmark (healing)
2 - M - PA
3 - R - cleave
4 - R
5 - M - THF
6 - R - GC
7 - D
8 - M
9 - R - empower heal
10 - M
11 - R
12 - M - IC: Bludgeon
13 - M - dodge (adept of forms)
14 - R
15 - R - ITF
16 - R
17 - R - (imp evasion)
18 - R - GTF
19 - R
20 - R - (opportunist)
21 - master of forms
24 - imp sneak att
27 - blinding speed ? PTHF ? Tactician ?


Enhancements:
Halfling (18):
3 - Luck
4 - Dex II
3 - dragonmark focus
2 - lesser (healing)
2 - break out the leeches
2 - greater (healing)
2 - dodge

Acrobat(39):

1 - staff control
1 - stick fighting
1 - tumbler
1 - kip up
2 - staff training
3 - theif acrobatics
2 - staff training
6 - quick strikes
6 - haste boost
4 - dex II

2 - staff training
6 - sweeping strikes
2 - staff training
2 - staff specialization

Henshin(12):

1 - riddle of fire
2 - staff training
2 - animal form (tortoise?)
2 - staff training
2 - fists of iron
1 - contemplation
2 - staff training

Ninja(11):
1 - basic ninja training
3 - acrobatic
2 - sneak att training -2
2 - sneak att training -2
1 - Agility - 1
1 - advanced ninja training - 1
1 - Shadow Veil - 1

DEX(48) - 20 base + 4 enh + 4 tome + 2 ship + 6 level up + 8 item + 3 insightful +1 exceptional = 48 (+19)

Damage:
+28 - DEX*1.5
+6 - acrobat tree
+4 - henshin tree

+2 - ship buff (bugbear)
+2 - ram's might

+6 - deadly VI item
+10 - power attack
=58
Stout Oak:
+41 - base dice 6+5[2d6] (1.5 dance of flowers, .5 imp PA, 1 shillelagh)
=99 17-20/x5, 19-20/x7 + fracturing (7) + felling the oak

Sireth:
+31.5 - base dice 7+4.5[1d10] (1.5 dance of flowers, .5 imp PA)
=89.5 13-20/x3, 19-20/x5 + Sup Good (10.5) + Lit (9.15) + Clouburst (8.75) + FoM

Gains (over Carry a Big Stick H-Orc STR build):
+6(7) dodge
+12 reflex
+4 will
+3 fort
healing (dragon mark + druid level 1 + emp healing) + neg level removal
+2 SA dice

[Caprice]

It is a minor point since this is a proof of concept build for endgame, but if anyone tries to make one like I did there is a hitch in the early Feat vs. BAB progression. GC is listed at level 6 but it requires BAB +4, which you do not get until level 7 with the published class progression. Pushing the Druid level down to 7 (i.e. R M R M R M D) lets you take all the Feats as listed, or you can stay with the posted class progression and take Emp Healing at 6 and wait until 9 for GC. Both options have their merits.

[Inoukchuk]

It is a minor point since this is a proof of concept build for endgame, but if anyone tries to make one like I did there is a hitch in the early Feat vs. BAB progression. GC is listed at level 6 but it requires BAB +4, which you do not get until level 7 with the published class progression. Pushing the Druid level down to 7 (i.e. R M R M R M D) lets you take all the Feats as listed, or you can stay with the posted class progression and take Emp Healing at 6 and wait until 9 for GC. Both options have their merits.

Good catch. Any feedback on the build itself?

[Caprice]

Good catch. Any feedback on the build itself?

Probably not anything useful. I am such a terrible altoholic that I have yet to get a character into epic progression so there is not much point in having me speculate on end game optimization, and it seems like a pretty tight build to me already. I was excited enough to make a compromised version of the build the same day, so it is safe to say I like what I see.

I am not 100% sure but think your stat buys may be slightly off - for a halfling with 14/20/14/12/10/8 I count 38 points spent. If you happened to have reincarnated with a +4 STR tome and are willing to swap when you pick up your THF and Dodge feats, then you can get away with dropping STR to 13. You'd have STR15 at level 7 and STR17 at level 15, which works out for picking up THF at Monk 6 (level 13) and ITHF at 15. I consider the THFs to be a bit unimportant while leveling anyway; I rarely stand still when I am fighting so I do not see that as a problem, but YMMV. If you only have the implied +3 you can easily drop WIS a couple points instead and rely on items and/or tomes to see you through. You are only casting level 1 spells anyway, and +1 Will saves probably is not going to make or break anything, but since you do not need the STR for anything else but the Feat requirements you might as well make it as low as you can. Taking a +4 this life will not help much, since you can't use it until after you would have needed it, but you could always move Master of Forms up to level 15 and push I/GTHF back to 18 and 21.

For leveling I would also be tempted to squeeze down the Monk levels a bit sooner. I feel like you get a lot out of Monk 6 between Shadow Veil and Adept (plus a little runspeed and better earlier saves). You want Rogue 3 ASAP for the DEX to attacks with staves, but also want to spread the Rogue levels out to keep up skills, but I think you can probably move up Monk 6 at least one level more without making skills lag too much. Maybe R M R M R M D R M M R M R ... R?

You mention Elf as an alternate option but I think that Halfling is much better in the long run for the build as presented. The better saves, status removal, and the synergy of having Empower Healing for both DM self-heals and later on for Cocoon really stand out. As an elf you really want Extend for your displacement DMs, and I don't see anything expendable on the feat list to squeeze that in too. A Halfling can also drop the DMs and pick up the racial Sneak Attack enhancements to put out a bit more DPS. Elves get up to 6% more hit, and Skill is quite nice (3% doublestrike, dodge, and dodge bypass), but without having seen or done any math it just does not feel as powerful (but I may be wrong).

However, FWIW for my 32-pt 1st life vet2 experiment I did go Elf. Qualifying for the THF feats on a 32-pt DEX-based Halfling is just a bit too rough for me. I think I ended up with 15/18/12/14/10/8; that puts me just a +2 STR tome away from the I/GTHF feats, and the extra starting INT helps a lot with the skill points without having tomes to bolster those. I'm also trying a R M M R M M D R M M R ... R progression to get Monk 6 at level 10. The STR/DEX disparity isn't as wide so I am pretending to be STR-based for now, and I hope that my knowledge of the quests will help me get away with the lagging skills. However the feats are as you have laid out, except that I am picking Extend for now for the longer Displacement DMs. I will probably think about swapping to Empower Healing somewhere in the epic levels ... if a shiny new build doesn't distract me first. [Hint: One always does! ;-)]

[DareDelvis]

Howdy,

Something to consider is that the last update made it so enhancements of the same name from stacking e.g. Staff Training.

I have a halfling acrobat and have used a dex/str to get overwhelming crit and pure strength, did not notice much difference but that is because the spread of points was not significant .

Also, for the last week I went up Henshin since I don't find Vault or Staff Lunge helpful vs points spent. I have been using Every Light Casts a Shadow which is cool as long as you remember to have death ward going.

[Inoukchuk]

Probably not anything useful. I am such a terrible altoholic that I have yet to get a character into epic progression so there is not much point in having me speculate on end game optimization, and it seems like a pretty tight build to me already. I was excited enough to make a compromised version of the build the same day, so it is safe to say I like what I see.

I am not 100% sure but think your stat buys may be slightly off - for a halfling with 14/20/14/12/10/8 I count 38 points spent. If you happened to have reincarnated with a +4 STR tome and are willing to swap when you pick up your THF and Dodge feats, then you can get away with dropping STR to 13. You'd have STR15 at level 7 and STR17 at level 15, which works out for picking up THF at Monk 6 (level 13) and ITHF at 15. I consider the THFs to be a bit unimportant while leveling anyway; I rarely stand still when I am fighting so I do not see that as a problem, but YMMV. If you only have the implied +3 you can easily drop WIS a couple points instead and rely on items and/or tomes to see you through. You are only casting level 1 spells anyway, and +1 Will saves probably is not going to make or break anything, but since you do not need the STR for anything else but the Feat requirements you might as well make it as low as you can. Taking a +4 this life will not help much, since you can't use it until after you would have needed it, but you could always move Master of Forms up to level 15 and push I/GTHF back to 18 and 21.

For leveling I would also be tempted to squeeze down the Monk levels a bit sooner. I feel like you get a lot out of Monk 6 between Shadow Veil and Adept (plus a little runspeed and better earlier saves). You want Rogue 3 ASAP for the DEX to attacks with staves, but also want to spread the Rogue levels out to keep up skills, but I think you can probably move up Monk 6 at least one level more without making skills lag too much. Maybe R M R M R M D R M M R M R ... R?

You mention Elf as an alternate option but I think that Halfling is much better in the long run for the build as presented. The better saves, status removal, and the synergy of having Empower Healing for both DM self-heals and later on for Cocoon really stand out. As an elf you really want Extend for your displacement DMs, and I don't see anything expendable on the feat list to squeeze that in too. A Halfling can also drop the DMs and pick up the racial Sneak Attack enhancements to put out a bit more DPS. Elves get up to 6% more hit, and Skill is quite nice (3% doublestrike, dodge, and dodge bypass), but without having seen or done any math it just does not feel as powerful (but I may be wrong).

However, FWIW for my 32-pt 1st life vet2 experiment I did go Elf. Qualifying for the THF feats on a 32-pt DEX-based Halfling is just a bit too rough for me. I think I ended up with 15/18/12/14/10/8; that puts me just a +2 STR tome away from the I/GTHF feats, and the extra starting INT helps a lot with the skill points without having tomes to bolster those. I'm also trying a R M M R M M D R M M R ... R progression to get Monk 6 at level 10. The STR/DEX disparity isn't as wide so I am pretending to be STR-based for now, and I hope that my knowledge of the quests will help me get away with the lagging skills. However the feats are as you have laid out, except that I am picking Extend for now for the longer Displacement DMs. I will probably think about swapping to Empower Healing somewhere in the epic levels ... if a shiny new build doesn't distract me first. [Hint: One always does! ;-)]

What, you don't have 38 pt builds yet? Nice to know you made one from this build thread =)

Great feedback, I will probably implement most of it! I think at some point I realized going 14 str was a good idea for the progression but forgot to lower int to accommodate. As you point out, 13 str works if you push back THF, or you could lower int to 10 if you are okay with a touch fewer skills. Would love to get STR to 21 for OC, but it's just not practical on a halfling dex build (though I think I included OC in damage calculations, so they'll be a touch lower than anticipated).

Elf should be viable, but I agree not as good which is why I made the example build halfling. Displacement is a fairly strong replacement for healing you lose, especially getting cocoon at epic levels, but you lose saves and status removal which are important throughout.

*Edit - and yes I have +4 tomes for all stats but I prefer not to base the build on that in case others don't*

[Inoukchuk]

Modified OP with corrections based on feedback.

[DareDelvis]

Howdy, I am revisiting my acrobat who has the usual 13/6/1 split.

2 questions:
1. Are glancing blows fixed with the q-staff? I was under the impression that they were still borked.
2. Doesn't Sireth require IC: slash to boost crit range?

I have run a dex build with my halfling and a str build. Both were fun. I may use the free or to try using the marks which I have never done before, but giving up the every light casts a shadow will be hard.

My biggest problem with this build and class split is deciding how to use the AP. I could use a couple dozen more...more SA, more staff training, beguile, shintao healing amp etc

Cheers

[Inoukchuk]

Howdy, I am revisiting my acrobat who has the usual 13/6/1 split.

2 questions:
1. Are glancing blows fixed with the q-staff? I was under the impression that they were still borked.
2. Doesn't Sireth require IC: slash to boost crit range?

To my knowledge IC works on the base type of the weapon rather than the actual damage type. So while Sireth won't work with pulverizer from LD it does work with IC: Bludgeon. Also if I understand correctly, q-staff glancing blows are still borked with cleaves, great cleaves but work on all other attacks (and cleave/GC are still worth using on a THF build regardless). Someone feel free to correct me (haven't actually started this build yet, this is theory build for next life while I'm playing up my Ginsu life).

I have run a dex build with my halfling and a str build. Both were fun. I may use the free or to try using the marks which I have never done before, but giving up the every light casts a shadow will be hard.

My biggest problem with this build and class split is deciding how to use the AP. I could use a couple dozen more...more SA, more staff training, beguile, shintao healing amp etc

Cheers

Don't we all have that problem! It's great having the problem of too many good things to take though rather than "I guess I'll take this since there is nothing else I need".

[MagicBlade]

Hey... I have a few general questions on this build, which you didn't go over. Skill points - where at did you put the skill points for leveling?

Also, I'm using a 34 point build (TR) and wondering about the stat points. I don't have access to +3 tomes.. but was wondering how a stat point arangement like this might work:

Str: 15 +2 Tome at 7
Dex: 18 +2 Tome at 7
Con: 14 +2 Tome at 7
Int: 11 +3 Tome at 11
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

With the tomes, it'd give me 12 Int at lv 3, for +1 skill point/lvl, and 14 at 11, for +2 skill points/lvl

Skill points:
Level 1 (R): 32
Level 2 (M): 4
Level 3 (R): 8
Level 4 (R): 9
Level 5 (M): 5
Level 6 (R): 9
Level 7 (D): 5
Level 8 (M): 5
Level 9 (R): 9
Level 10 (M): 5
Level 11 (R): 9
Level 12 (M): 6
Level 13 (M): 6
Level 14 (R): 10
Level 15 (R): 10
Level 16 (R): 10
Level 17 (R): 10
Level 18 (R): 10
Level 19 (R): 10
Level 20 (R): 10

Anyways... just wondering where it's best to put the stat points.

Also - in general, what to go for on the gear, the maximize dps - throughout leveling and endgame.. as well as to maximize survivability.

For the Dragonmark of Healing - I assume that it's based upon Heal + Healing Spell Power/Empower Healing?
Also, with the full Dragonmark chain - there's only:
8 Cure Light Wounds
6 Cure Serious Wounds
4 Heal

That's only a total of 18 heals - how is this enough do.. well anything? Do the dragonmarks regenerate over time, or only renew upon resting/tavern?

[Inoukchuk]

Hey... I have a few general questions on this build, which you didn't go over. Skill points - where at did you put the skill points for leveling?

Also, I'm using a 34 point build (TR) and wondering about the stat points. I don't have access to +3 tomes.. but was wondering how a stat point arangement like this might work:

Str: 15 +2 Tome at 7
Dex: 18 +2 Tome at 7
Con: 14 +2 Tome at 7
Int: 11 +3 Tome at 11
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

By my count that's 37 pts (keeping in mind your STR starts at 6 on a halfling, so 13pts to get 15 str). You could compensate by dumping int to 8, or int to 10 and wis to 8. Skills shouldn't be strapped since you have a lot of rogue levels. However, with such a heavy pt investment in STR I'd be tempted to run a STR build instead, have to think about it. A +3 tome solves this problem.

With the tomes, it'd give me 12 Int at lv 3, for +1 skill point/lvl, and 14 at 11, for +2 skill points/lvl

Skill points:
Level 1 (R): 32
Level 2 (M): 4
Level 3 (R): 8
Level 4 (R): 9
Level 5 (M): 5
Level 6 (R): 9
Level 7 (D): 5
Level 8 (M): 5
Level 9 (R): 9
Level 10 (M): 5
Level 11 (R): 9
Level 12 (M): 6
Level 13 (M): 6
Level 14 (R): 10
Level 15 (R): 10
Level 16 (R): 10
Level 17 (R): 10
Level 18 (R): 10
Level 19 (R): 10
Level 20 (R): 10

Those last 7 levels are all rogue, which lets you catch up pts. Assuming you do in fact start at 11 with +3 tome, if we just count rogue levels we have 32 at 1st and 114 after that. That's enough for:
23 spot
23 search
23 disable
23 umd
23 open lock
19 left over

Monk gives us another 41 to split between heal, tumble, balance, hide, move silent, concentration. Druid adds 5 to put into spellcraft, heal, concentration. Personally I'm not really a sneaking type, so I might be inclined to put a few pts in tumble, max heal and concentration to 17 each (highest level getting full ranks), max bluff, put all 5 druid pts in either heal or spell craft for more pos SP, and put a few in balance. Optionally you can level out a few of these short of max to try to bring up sneak skills also, which is class skill for both rogue and monk.

Anyways... just wondering where it's best to put the stat points.

Also - in general, what to go for on the gear, the maximize dps - throughout leveling and endgame.. as well as to maximize survivability.

For gear... I don't know what you already have, so that's tough. Easy to get and nice to have items come from house C challenges, particularly the frozen tunic (the freezing effect is amazing crowd control and at the same time a nice damage boost due to helpless) and the bracers of wind (for perma-blur and air-guard). Both are amazing starting at level 3/4. You'll want the best deadly item and speed item you can wear at level, best stat + items also. As always equipment will be a nightmare, trying to fit in deathblock, 100% fort, feather falling, +x resistance, etc. Your weapon of choice from 8-20 (or at least 18) will be theurgic stave, though a triple pos GS staff would be nice for undead (consider a holy/good burst/30% amp; you lose a tiny bit of DPS but gain an easy amp item if you don't want to build a 10/20/30 amp item separately).

For the Dragonmark of Healing - I assume that it's based upon Heal + Healing Spell Power/Empower Healing?
Also, with the full Dragonmark chain - there's only:
8 Cure Light Wounds
6 Cure Serious Wounds
4 Heal

That's only a total of 18 heals - how is this enough do.. well anything? Do the dragonmarks regenerate over time, or only renew upon resting/tavern?

I've never played a halfling, so this is a concern for me as well. You'll also have a small regen from druid. I'm inclined to say that in 95% of heroic content that will be plenty of healing between shrines, especially if you have a ML11 flask of rum, which I do. For more challenging content (long, difficult quests) you would use these for combat heals and scroll heal outside of combat. I'd love for someone that plays halflings to chime in on this (this is a theory build, I haven't actually played it yet but plan to in my next life or the one after).

[MagicBlade]

By my count that's 37 pts (keeping in mind your STR starts at 6 on a halfling, so 13pts to get 15 str). You could compensate by dumping int to 8, or int to 10 and wis to 8. Skills shouldn't be strapped since you have a lot of rogue levels. However, with such a heavy pt investment in STR I'd be tempted to run a STR build instead, have to think about it. A +3 tome solves this problem.

Character Plan by DDO Character Planner Version 04.19.03
DDO Character Planner Home Page

Level 1 Lawful Good Halfling Male
(1 Rogue) 
Hit Points: 33
Spell Points: 0 
BAB: 0
Fortitude: 3
Reflex: 7
Will: 1

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(34 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 1)
Strength             15                    15
Dexterity            18                    18
Constitution         14                    14
Intelligence         11                    11
Wisdom               10                    10
Charisma              8                     8

That's 34 points, there's a char gen of it, with 36 point, could bump Int to 13 or Wis to 12, or drop int to 9, and bump Con to 16...

For gear... I don't know what you already have, so that's tough. Easy to get and nice to have items come from house C challenges, particularly the frozen tunic (the freezing effect is amazing crowd control and at the same time a nice damage boost due to helpless) and the bracers of wind (for perma-blur and air-guard). Both are amazing starting at level 3/4. You'll want the best deadly item and speed item you can wear at level, best stat + items also. As always equipment will be a nightmare, trying to fit in deathblock, 100% fort, feather falling, +x resistance, etc. Your weapon of choice from 8-20 (or at least 18) will be theurgic stave, though a triple pos GS staff would be nice for undead (consider a holy/good burst/30% amp; you lose a tiny bit of DPS but gain an easy amp item if you don't want to build a 10/20/30 amp item separately).

Currently as far as gear - I don't have much, but able to get, if I go that route. Currently my character is a eldritch knight fighter, but looking to TR into something else that'd be more survivable than my current build. No idea just want I want to TR into just yet, but a friend pointed me to this build.


I've never played a halfling, so this is a concern for me as well. You'll also have a small regen from druid. I'm inclined to say that in 95% of heroic content that will be plenty of healing between shrines, especially if you have a ML11 flask of rum, which I do. For more challenging content (long, difficult quests) you would use these for combat heals and scroll heal outside of combat. I'd love for someone that plays halflings to chime in on this (this is a theory build, I haven't actually played it yet but plan to in my next life or the one after).[/QUOTE]

[lotterholt]

IC: Bludgeon will not fit at 12, BaB will be 7 not the required 8, maybe swap for ift and have to take it later.

[Inoukchuk]

IC: Bludgeon will not fit at 12, BaB will be 7 not the required 8, maybe swap for ift and have to take it later.

Good catch. There are a couple of ways to fix this. The easiest is swap the rogue level at 14 with the monk level at 12 (5th monk level gets no BAB increase, but 7th rogue does). But the option I prefer might actually be to dump the druid level because on further review all the good staves except stout oak are metal... go figure. Chieftan's Spear and Sireth are steel, Theurgic Stave is adamantine. Though I was also wrong about pulverizer in my damage calcs (added it as multiplier rather than extended range, which makes stout oak neck-and-neck with Sireth for damage if, and that's a big if, pulverizer stacks with staff specialization (and you have shillelagh). I've heard rumors that pulverizer does not stack with keen edge, can anyone confirm if it stacks with staff specialization? If that works then by using stout oak you are basically trading 15 PRR and FoM for Felling the Oak, and while felling the oak is very very nice, I'm not sure that's a good trade.

So, the question is, is it worth dropping the druid level and if so for what?

Druid:
Ram's Might (+2 damage)
Lesser Vigor
Access to Empower Heal
Shillelagh (only works on Stout Oak and Rahl's Might)
Echoes of power

Fighter:
+1 feat
+1 BAB (also helps leveling order)
saves 6 AP on haste boost which I can spend in Kensei tree on 1 core, 1 level of WGS and 3 pts in haste boost
(nets me +3/-1 and a feat vs druid)

Monk(7):
Wholeness of body

Other options I'm missing? So far I'm not seeing much to convince me to drop druid actually.

[thouston]

was considering a stick build and this may be the build i am looking for.
was wondering if you have it in the ron's planner format.
it would be more difficult for me to mess up that way.

***EDIT***
what monk feat did you take at level 8?
also what do the saves and hit points look like at level 20?

[kuro_zero]

Pulverized, Keen Edge, and Staff Specialization are all typed as competence bonuses and don't stack.

Being DEX based, I would highly recommend getting Grandmaster of forms for another +1DEX and, more importantly, the extra +2.5% doublestrike. It also gives you the full 15% melee atk speed so no need for Blinding Speed.

I would drop the whole THF line, getting enough STR to hit the 13 needed for PA with tome. Alternative feat selections Quicken and mobility / toughness.

Druid is probably still the beat splash for this build. Ram's Might is nice, but probably more importantly is unlocking Heal as a class skill which you'll want max ranks for the pos SP to power cocoon.

[thouston]

does anyone know if op still plays?

[RumbIe]

You mention it is for comparison to the HORC STR based build. Any chance someone could link the one he was talking about. I have had HORC since it came out and 14 used character slots and never once build something with it. Was looking at QStaff builds for fun and it cuaght my eye.

Thanks

[Cardtrick]

You mention it is for comparison to the HORC STR based build. Any chance someone could link the one he was talking about. I have had HORC since it came out and 14 used character slots and never once build something with it. Was looking at QStaff builds for fun and it cuaght my eye.

Thanks

The classic HORC STR-based acrobat used to be 13 rogue / 6 monk or fighter / 1 fighter or monk. I had a version called YASH (Yet Another Staff Horcrobat) that was fairly popular, which used the 6 fighter / 1 monk split. The 6 fighter was to get Kensai I, which was a big DPS increase at the time. The basic idea was to go super high strength and use the Kensai and Horc damage improvements to make quarterstaffs sort of viable. It used to be quite a nice build, and there were other similar ones.

These days, though, half orcs really aren't ideal for anything and the enhancement pass freed up level splits quite a bit, so I doubt there's much out there like what he mentions. Plus the Thief Acrobat enhancements and the available quarterstaves have been improved so drastically that you don't really need to push strength/damage to the absolute limit to do acceptable DPS; it's often better to get some other utility value instead. Human for healing amp and the extra feat or Bladeforged for the self-healing are just strictly superior options to half orc.

Still, it's not terrible, just not ideal. My favorite current staff build is the Zeus build. It uses Bladeforged, but you could convert it to half-orc. You'd give up the self-healing and immunities, which is very unfortunate, but you're going to do that on any half-orc build. It's still a good level split and nothing else would have to change much.

Or if you have something more specific in mind that you're looking for, go ahead and post a request in the "Looking for a Build" thread, and I'm sure one of us will put something together for you. Best of luck!

[RumbIe]

Thanks. I did see the Zeus build and I will likely take a stab at it as it is drawn up. I have BF so why not. Looks cool

I guess I was just looking through my stable of characters and saw that while I have bought Horc I have never built anything with them. Looking at their enhancement tree I'm not particularly impressed, much the same way I can't for the life of me find a reason to keep using Helfs. There must be some build out there though where Horc is the best, or at least 2nd best option for a race. Some of the rage effects might be cool, but losing 20 PRR for +2 STR hardly seems worth it. +2 AC is fine for the other rage, but not really balanced in my opinion.