2 Monk Splash

[Panzermeyer]

I of course often see a 2 Monk splash on lot's of builds.

I obviously see the bonus of evasion and 2 martial feats for this splash.

However I have never run a monk and am not familiar with all the needs for a monk.

The few times I have run this splash it's utility seems to run out in the mid teens, as far as making sure I stay centered and unarmed combat.

However reading some threads it seems to me that I am missing a bunch of how I am suppose to hold the build to keep getting benefits of being centered from these 2 monk levels.

What are the benefits of being epic with a 2 monk splash and staying centered, and how does one keep those?

[jalont]

I of course often see a 2 Monk splash on lot's of builds.

I obviously see the bonus of evasion and 2 martial feats for this splash.

However I have never run a monk and am not familiar with all the needs for a monk.

The few times I have run this splash it's utility seems to run out in the mid teens, as far as making sure I stay centered and unarmed combat.

However reading some threads it seems to me that I am missing a bunch of how I am suppose to hold the build to keep getting benefits of being centered from these 2 monk levels.

What are the benefits of being epic with a 2 monk splash and staying centered, and how does one keep those?

You do not need to be centered for the two free feats and you do not need to be centered for evasion. So, for some builds, staying centered isn't something they worry about.

Each build is different. Some fighter builds can just take two monk levels and take all the rest of the stances as feats. It seems like an odd way to do it, but that would be a benefit to them, as they could stay centered in Earth IV while wielding their kensai weapon.

Some divine casters take two monks because of the synergy with wisdom. They remain casters, but stunning fist is nice, therefore they aren't negatively impacted.

[Panzermeyer]

You do not need to be centered for the two free feats and you do not need to be centered for evasion. So, for some builds, staying centered isn't something they worry about.

Yes I understand that part about splashing Monk and it certainly does have value.

My question is more around what is the value of staying centered at the higher levels, and what do you get by worrying about keeping the build centered that will benefit you in the Epic content.

[jalont]

Yes I understand that part about splashing Monk and it certainly does have value.

My question is more around what is the value of staying centered at the higher levels, and what do you get by worrying about keeping the build centered that will benefit you in the Epic content.

The only people that are probably staying centered are divine casters (there's really not much that would make them uncentered anyway) for water stance (+2 to their DCs) and stunning fist, which on a divine caster will stay viable through EE content.

The other is fighters. In order for a fighter to stay centered, all they need to do is give up armor. In a world where AC is useless, Earth IV more than makes up for the lack of PRR.

[elg582]

The few times I have run this splash it's utility seems to run out in the mid teens, as far as making sure I stay centered and unarmed combat.

This is probably when your saves are no longer sufficient for evasion to work and high end melee weapons start to compete with unarmed combat, unless you have a lot of monk levels to increase the base damage.

However reading some threads it seems to me that I am missing a bunch of how I am suppose to hold the build to keep getting benefits of being centered from these 2 monk levels.

8 fighter will let you stay centered with your focus weapons from tier 5 kensei; of course, this locks out other tier 5 abilities. 2 paladin (and some investment in CHA) will increase your saves enough to be effective late game.

What are the benefits of being epic with a 2 monk splash and staying centered, and how does one keep those?

Other than the 2 feats and evasion? If you take the form feats, then earth stance gives defensive bonuses and increased crit multiplier, wind gives attack speed and doublestrike, water gives increased saves and ki generation. You could use monk special attacks, but most of them run off of monk level, so the DCs will suck.

[Inoukchuk]

Yes I understand that part about splashing Monk and it certainly does have value.

My question is more around what is the value of staying centered at the higher levels, and what do you get by worrying about keeping the build centered that will benefit you in the Epic content.

Staying centered can do a number of things. For a 2 monk splash it usually means this:

1) earth stance from master of forms - this grants +1 multiplier on 19-20 (equivelant of overwhelming critical) AND +3 Con, +15% AC, 12 PRR, +55% threat
2) monk attacks, usually fist of iron (+3[W] and +1 multiplier) and earth-earth-earth-earth finisher (+12 dam and 2d6 acid on earth attacks, +2 multiplier on finisher)
3) use of Dance of Flowers, a twistable tier 1 ability from GMoF ED that gives +1.5[W] all the time (if centered)

So, for instance, if you are dual wielding Balizarde while centered you can be looking at 4[W] 13-20/3 (19-20/x5) all the time (or better if you have more stuff added in), plus some nice elemental attacks from earth.

Other than that, you need to keep up your reflex save for evasion to maintain it's value. Does this answer your question well enough?

[Panzermeyer]

Staying centered can do a number of things. For a 2 monk splash it usually means this:

1) earth stance from master of forms - this grants +1 multiplier on 19-20 (equivelant of overwhelming critical) AND +3 Con, +15% AC, 12 PRR, +55% threat
2) monk attacks, usually fist of iron (+3[W] and +1 multiplier) and earth-earth-earth-earth finisher (+12 dam and 2d6 acid on earth attacks, +2 multiplier on finisher)
3) use of Dance of Flowers, a twistable tier 1 ability from GMoF ED that gives +1.5[W] all the time (if centered)

So, for instance, if you are dual wielding Balizarde while centered you can be looking at 4[W] 13-20/3 (19-20/x5) all the time (or better if you have more stuff added in), plus some nice elemental attacks from earth.

Other than that, you need to keep up your reflex save for evasion to maintain it's value. Does this answer your question well enough?

Yes that does.

I was well aware of the need for a decent reflex save and light/no armor to get any value out of evasion.

This info on being centered is what I was looking for. Thanks.

[Inoukchuk]

Yes that does.

I was well aware of the need for a decent reflex save and light/no armor to get any value out of evasion.

This info on being centered is what I was looking for. Thanks.

I should also clarify for the information I provided above that most people will spend general feats to pick up adept of forms and master of forms (detailed above in stance/earth attacks). You get the lower forms for free as a first level monk (initiate of forms?), and pick up adept for free at 6th and master for free at 12th, which is also why you see a lot of 6 monk splashes to get adept of forms for free, another free monk feet, some ac/dodge/movement, and access to shadow veil from Ninja.

Also of note, the monk splash is often worth it just for the feats and evasion. I have a 18/2 paly (mostly leveled before the pass and will TR soon so I didn't bother to LR) that doesn't bother to try to be centered, he just wanted evasion + paly saves + 2 badly needed feets.