Army of One

[Lanhelin]

Enchantment is hardly a dead spec, but charm spammers are (I only charm mobs while soloing, because pink hats annoy most parties).

This is only partially true. There are a few quests with mob groups respawning or huge amounts of them (I don't remember the quest names, but like the one where you have to defeat a whole village full of minotaurs or the other where you enter a forest and directly at the start there spawn groups of mobs again and again and you have to defend the area for a certain amount of time) or enemies far away and above, unreachable for melees (like the one Drow-Dungeon in the Sands) or certain quest targets like in the cave dungeon in The Twelve where not killing the earth elementals would cause an additional chest to spawn. In these cases charms are very useful and hardly annoying.

Charmed mobs can always be released, this should not be a problem because it takes only a few more seconds to complete the dungeon. It saves Player-SP, it contributes mob-damage and/or one or the other mob-buff to the party. The only annoying thing is, that Healer Hirelings would heal charmed mobs to full HP, wasting their SP on them. This is the only real annoying thing, maybe melees get a bit annoyed too when their attacks come to nothing. But this is a low price compaired to the advantages.

@Topic:

I thought a bit further about splashing Druid and there seem to be a few viable builds when Wizard 17 is the minimum to get the Mass Hold Monster spell. Splashing Rogue additionally for Trap skills only or +Evasion should work too.

1. Wizard 19 / Druid 1 (pure Enchanter, more high level Wizard spells)
2. Wizard 18 / Druid 1 / Rogue 1 (Trap skills)
3. Wizard 17 / Druid 3 (+1 DC for heightened Charm Animal; Animal Trance, Hold Animal and Cure Light Wounds (Tier 2 Druid spells))
4. Wizard 17 / Druid 1 / Rogue 2 (Evasion)

I'm not sure now which path I'll follow. #3 and #4 appeal to me the most, but on the other side more high level Wiz spells and longer duration of Wiz buffs are also good things to think about.

[ThePrincipal]

You ever think about making a 15 wizard 5 bard (spellsinger 5)? The character gets mass charm monster and has the highest possible enchantment dc in game. I was thinking could be pretty awesome although one trick pony..

Gives you +1 DC right? Spellsinger gives +3 Enchant DC from (1 yellow crown, 2 prodigy). Lvl 15 wizard loses -2 DC from Heighten only going to lvl 7 caster level.

[richieelias27]

This is only partially true. There are a few quests with mob groups respawning or huge amounts of them (I don't remember the quest names, but like the one where you have to defeat a whole village full of minotaurs or the other where you enter a forest and directly at the start there spawn groups of mobs again and again and you have to defend the area for a certain amount of time) or enemies far away and above, unreachable for melees (like the one Drow-Dungeon in the Sands) or certain quest targets like in the cave dungeon in The Twelve where not killing the earth elementals would cause an additional chest to spawn. In these cases charms are very useful and hardly annoying.

Charmed mobs can always be released, this should not be a problem because it takes only a few more seconds to complete the dungeon. It saves Player-SP, it contributes mob-damage and/or one or the other mob-buff to the party. The only annoying thing is, that Healer Hirelings would heal charmed mobs to full HP, wasting their SP on them. This is the only real annoying thing, maybe melees get a bit annoyed too when their attacks come to nothing. But this is a low price compaired to the advantages.

@Topic:

I thought a bit further about splashing Druid and there seem to be a few viable builds when Wizard 17 is the minimum to get the Mass Hold Monster spell. Splashing Rogue additionally for Trap skills only or +Evasion should work too.

1. Wizard 19 / Druid 1 (pure Enchanter, more high level Wizard spells)
2. Wizard 18 / Druid 1 / Rogue 1 (Trap skills)
3. Wizard 17 / Druid 3 (+1 DC for heightened Charm Animal; Animal Trance, Hold Animal and Cure Light Wounds (Tier 2 Druid spells))
4. Wizard 17 / Druid 1 / Rogue 2 (Evasion)

I'm not sure now which path I'll follow. #3 and #4 appeal to me the most, but on the other side more high level Wiz spells and longer duration of Wiz buffs are also good things to think about.

I'm not seeing any synergy between Druid and Wizard... especially with 3 druid levels. You miss out on Lich so that you can gain... what exactly?

[Lanhelin]

I'm not seeing any synergy between Druid and Wizard... especially with 3 druid levels. You miss out on Lich so that you can gain... what exactly?

The main purposes to splash Druid: Taking one Druid Level gives the spell Charm Animal (for Spiders, Lions, Dogs, Scorpions and Bears). Wizards cannot charm those types of mobs, except the magical beast subtypes. Taking three Levels gives Hold Animal. Minor benefits: Animal Form makes the Wiz a bit more survivable in lower content melee range; the Wands & Scrolls Enhancement costs 4 AP in the Season's Herald tree, but 9 AP in the Archmage tree; a lever-pulling Wolf Companion.
I wouldn't take Lich for Enchantment purpose - Vampire would be better because of +2 DC to this school. I put some further thoughts on these builds in this thread if you're interested.

[richieelias27]

The main purposes to splash Druid: Taking one Druid Level gives the spell Charm Animal (for Spiders, Lions, Dogs, Scorpions and Bears). Wizards cannot charm those types of mobs, except the magical beast subtypes. Taking three Levels gives Hold Animal. Minor benefits: Animal Form makes the Wiz a bit more survivable in lower content melee range; the Wands & Scrolls Enhancement costs 4 AP in the Season's Herald tree, but 9 AP in the Archmage tree; a lever-pulling Wolf Companion.
I wouldn't take Lich for Enchantment purpose - Vampire would be better because of +2 DC to this school. I put some further thoughts on these builds in this thread if you're interested.

You realize that your DC with all druid spells is going to be absolute trash, right? -7 DC right off the bat because you cannot heighten to level 9, and a minimum of -2 more at level 20 because you surely put your level up stat points into INT. Then subtract whatever is leftover due to you not capping WIS. Not to mention a -17 to spell penetration on all of your druid spells, and a -3 to everything else. That is a very big hit just so you can (attempt to) charm what is arguably some of the weakest enemies in the game. I predict that you will be struggling just to land your druid spells even in over-level heroic normal content.

Also, Lich vs Vampire:

Vampire - Does not get an Enchant bonus over lich if improved shrouding is taken (and why would you not?) only +1 otherwise, not +2. Neg level on melee vorpal, +2 STR, and threat reduction, and +1 health per melee hit.
Lich - Same Enchant DC as vampire with improved shrouding, +3 Necro DC, +2 everything else (due to +4 INT). +4 to CON, +2 WIS, temp hp on damaged, +10 neg spellpower, extra negative energy damage on melee hits.

In other words, as far as DC is concerned Lich is superior to Vampire in every way.

Typically the rule with Necro forms is: If you want a melee/caster hybrid, go Wraith. For DC casting, 18 levels of Wizard is a minimum so that you can get Lich. Pure is recommended due to spell penetration unless you have past lives (and even then you need to be well geared), or you're just racing to 20 to TR.

Honestly, the only time you use Vampire form is between level 6 and 12, or you have a build that splashed less than 12 wizard levels.

[Lanhelin]

You realize that your DC with all druid spells is going to be absolute trash, right? -7 DC right off the bat because you cannot heighten to level 9, and a minimum of -2 more at level 20 because you surely put your level up stat points into INT. Then subtract whatever is leftover due to you not capping WIS. Not to mention a -17 to spell penetration on all of your druid spells, and a -3 to everything else. That is a very big hit just so you can (attempt to) charm what is arguably some of the weakest enemies in the game. I predict that you will be struggling just to land your druid spells even in over-level heroic normal content.

It's not the purpose to cast any other Druid spells than Charm and Hold. Animals and Vermin have very low Will saves, so a DC in the mid 20's would be enough. It's not necessary to cap Wis. Spell Pen on Druid spells is not relevant for this build. As mentioned in the other Thread I'd rather go Helf than WF, to compensate the lost 3 Spell Pen on Wiz spells.

Vampire - Does not get an Enchant bonus over lich if improved shrouding is taken (and why would you not?) only +1 otherwise, not +2. Neg level on melee vorpal, +2 STR, and threat reduction, and +1 health per melee hit.
Lich - Same Enchant DC as vampire with improved shrouding, +3 Necro DC, +2 everything else (due to +4 INT). +4 to CON, +2 WIS, temp hp on damaged, +10 neg spellpower, extra negative energy damage on melee hits.

Unfortunately there are not enough AP left (and the game doesn't allow it anyway) to take two Tier 5 Enhancements from different trees. I'd take the second spell school mastery enhancement and the secondary school mastery. Plus Arcane Supremacy, because even as an Enchanter sometimes a bit more dmg is nice. Going deep into Pale Master instead of Archmage is just a flavor thing, because there is no difference between both trees regarding Enchantment. Both give +3 DC (Improved Lich + 2 Int and two times spell focus + 2 Int), but going deep Archmage is cheaper regarding AP. The additional Vampire grants +2 DC for 11 AP only, on the other side if you additionally take the first spellfocus and the two Int enhancements from Archmage this would cost 24 AP. It'd be even cheaper to spend 22 AP in PM to get +3 DC, but I need the points elsewhere, eg. in the Helf tree to get max +5 Int, so I cannot see the big advantage going deep PM for this purpose.

Typically the rule with Necro forms is: If you want a melee/caster hybrid, go Wraith. For DC casting, 18 levels of Wizard is a minimum so that you can get Lich. Pure is recommended due to spell penetration unless you have past lives (and even then you need to be well geared), or you're just racing to 20 to TR.

Honestly, the only time you use Vampire form is between level 6 and 12, or you have a build that splashed less than 12 wizard levels.

I'm untypical. Believe it or not ;-)


Edit: There is one difference between deep Archmage and deep Pale Master regarding Enchantment: The PM +DC only applies to Int based spells (if you take the improved Lich), because it'd be gained all via Int, while the two Spell masteries in AM and the Vampire would increase the DC of the Druid spells too by +4.