Pure Caster Cleric advice needed

[Henshaw135]

Hello, and thank you in advance for interest in the thread. :-)

I have been tinkering a build on Lamannia for my level 11 character, who I am going to +20 LR into a Cleric, when LR comes off CD (was 3 classes, so needed to get rid of one first with a +3 LR). I already have a Morninglord Cleric on Live, but I want a Human instead, especially for the extra Feat, but also for the Dragonmark (which IS the extra Feat).

Firstly, I am basing the build loosely on EllisDee37:s Necro Cleric, which I really like, but wanted to tweak it into my own tastes. I don't want to derail their thread with questions about my own build, so I decided to post a new thread instead.


First the Feats I want to fit in:
- Least Dragonmark of Passage (I really like Dimension Door, and would like Teleport too. Teleport can be scrolled though, so not required and it's expensive in AP (12 instead of 7 total AP). It would also make it impossible to get everything vital from RS and DD trees)
- Mental Toughness (spellpoints are quite low at lower levels, and as I don't know all quests yet, I want to make sure I have enough. +1% to Crit isn't bad either)

The ones I would have to swap out for them:
- Toughness (31 HP with the cost of a Feat slot I really would like to use for something more important... I don't have it even on my melee characters. could switch Mental Toughness out for it though at 20:ish, unless Extend is more vital later on)
- Enlarge Spell (not certain, but I guess it's used for the instadeath spells? will the double range really make such a difference?)
- OR Quicken (I still haven't used it a single time on my current Cleric except for Burst (and only used Burst once), as Blade Barrier is fast enough without, and most damage comes from kiting anyway. Self healing I do with Aura, Pots and Wands, unless I am about to use a shrine. Is it vital for healing later on?)


Then about the Enhancements:

Kind of a continuum from the Mental Toughness Feats, I really like Efficient Metamagics, as I have run out of SP on a few quest, and that's about as bad situation as it can be on a caster, in my still limited experience... Echoes does work, but in some fights it's just not going to cut it as it's still only 12 SP, so no big spells on it (did the last bit of Fathom the Depths boss fight with Echoes solo on Elite, and it was painful). Sadly, if I want to get Efficient Heighten, it would cost me 8 more points from something more important, and that just isn't going to happen.

So, what I came up with was this:


Stats:

                  Starting          Feat/Enhancement
Abilities        Base Stats          Modified Stats
(32 Point)       (Level 1)             (Level 20)
Strength             10                    12
Dexterity             8                    10
Constitution         14                    16
Intelligence         14                    16
Wisdom               18                    20
Charisma             10                    12

Tomes Used
+2 Tome of Strength used at level 7
+2 Tome of Dexterity used at level 7
+2 Tome of Constitution used at level 7
+2 Tome of Intelligence used at level 7
+2 Tome of Wisdom used at level 7
+2 Tome of Charisma used at level 7

Feats:

Level 1 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Human Bonus) Maximize Spell
Feat: (Cleric) Follower of the Sovereign Host

Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Necromancy

Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Passage
Feat: (Cleric) Unyielding Sovereignty

Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness - Will most likely switch something more important in at 20, or even earlier

Level 12 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration

Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration

Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell

Level 21 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Epic Spell Penetration

Level 24 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy

Level 26 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell

Level 27 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Evocation (or Great Ability: Wisdom or Empower Spell, depending on what I really need)

Level 28 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Guardian Angel

Enhancements:

Radiant Servant 32 AP:
Healing Domain
Pacifism
Positive Energy Burst
Improved Empower Healing
- Extra Turning 3
- Wand and Scroll Mastery 3
- Altruism 3
- Bliss 1
- Improved Turning 3
- Wisdom x2
- Endless Turning 3
- Intense Healing 1
- Positive Energy Aura

Divine Disciple 41 AP:
Divine Emissary of Light
Sacred Defense
Sun Bolt
Sunbeam
Sunburst
Transcend Light
- Spellpower: Universal 3x3
- Spell Critical: Universal x4
- Efficient Maximise 3
- Spell Penetration 3
- Wisdom x2
- Spell DC: Evocation

Human Racial 7 AP:
Human Versatility: Spell Power Boost
Human Adaptability: Wisdom
Human Versatility: Saves Boost
- Orien Dragonmark Focus
- Lesser Dragonmark of Passage

While leveling, I will go with the SLA:s in Divine Disciple, and will swap them out at 20. I will most likely also have Energy of the Disciple for some extra SP, but I'm not sure if it would be better to just take more Universal Spell Power instead, to get more power for the SP I already will have in the first place.

On the Radiant Servant tree the problem I have is, that I only have the first rank of Intense Healing, which makes both my Aura and Burst lower. This I don't know how much it really affects my performance, so I would need some insights. I will also have Bliss 1 while leveling (will switch it to something else at 20, maybe Intense Healing 2), as the extra HP is very nice. My first priority is to get the Aura though, and anything that makes me survive better without the need to use SP for self-healing. Could the ranks in Intense Healing do that, or is the AP better spent on something else? In the limited tests I did, the difference with and without wasn't that big, but over time it cumulates quite a lot (for Aura).

I am also seriously considering on putting 6 points into the Warpriest tree for the 5/- DR and 15 extra HP for leveling. For 6 points that feels something I don't want to pass, but it might delay some important Enhancements too much. In that case resetting the Warpriest tree won't be expensive though, so I will see how it goes. I will only have Nimbus of Light SLA from DD when I hit 12 if I put the points to the Warpriest tree. If I didn't, I would have 2 ranks in Searing Light too by that time.


Another wall of text from me... I seem not to be able to make my posts short at all. :-)

Thank you for reading, and in advance for comments, help and insights.

[tsteigner]

Hello, and thank you in advance for interest in the thread. :-)


First the Feats I want to fit in:
- Least Dragonmark of Passage (I really like Dimension Door, and would like Teleport too. Teleport can be scrolled though, so not required and it's expensive in AP (12 instead of 7 total AP). It would also make it impossible to get everything vital from RS and DD trees)
- Mental Toughness (spellpoints are quite low at lower levels, and as I don't know all quests yet, I want to make sure I have enough. +1% to Crit isn't bad either)

The ones I would have to swap out for them:
- Toughness (31 HP with the cost of a Feat slot I really would like to use for something more important... I don't have it even on my melee characters. could switch Mental Toughness out for it though at 20:ish, unless Extend is more vital later on)
- Extend Spell (not certain, but I guess it's used for the instadeath spells? will the double range really make such a difference?)
- OR Quicken (I still haven't used it a single time on my current Cleric except for Burst (and only used Burst once), as Blade Barrier is fast enough without, and most damage comes from kiting anyway. Self healing I do with Aura, Pots and Wands, unless I am about to use a shrine. Is it vital for healing later on?)

Toughness imho is a waste of a feat atm, you could easily swap this one out
Extent since the change to lvl 1 buffs lasting for min 5 min, isn't even needed anymore
so you could if you want change those 2 for mental toughness + Dragonmark

but you never want to build a cleric without Quicken, you might get along with a bladebarrier without quicken, but not with heal and for 100% not with a mass heal ( and if you ever group, a group around higher lvl, will always expect a cleric to heal with mass heal, since the burst will most times not be enough)

[Henshaw135]

Toughness imho is a waste of a feat atm, you could easily swap this one out
Extent since the change to lvl 1 buffs lasting for min 5 min, isn't even needed anymore
so you could if you want change those 2 for mental toughness + Dragonmark

but you never want to build a cleric without Quicken, you might get along with a bladebarrier without quicken, but not with heal and for 100% not with a mass heal ( and if you ever group, a group around higher lvl, will always expect a cleric to heal with mass heal, since the burst will most times not be enough)

Whoops, sorry for the confusion. I meant Enlarge Spell, not Extend. Read the post through 10 times total making changes and correcting typos, and still ended up with something so crucial. Sorry about that.

Thank you for the answer. Was suspecting Quicken would be for heals, and will take it in that case.

(Fixing the OP now.)

[SirValentine]

First the Feats I want to fit in:
- Least Dragonmark of Passage (I really like Dimension Door, and would like Teleport too. Teleport can be scrolled though, so not required and it's expensive in AP (12 instead of 7 total AP). It would also make it impossible to get everything vital from RS and DD trees)
- Mental Toughness (spellpoints are quite low at lower levels, and as I don't know all quests yet, I want to make sure I have enough. +1% to Crit isn't bad either)

The ones I would have to swap out for them:
- Toughness (31 HP with the cost of a Feat slot I really would like to use for something more important... I don't have it even on my melee characters. could switch Mental Toughness out for it though at 20:ish, unless Extend is more vital later on)
- Enlarge Spell (not certain, but I guess it's used for the instadeath spells? will the double range really make such a difference?)
- OR Quicken (I still haven't used it a single time on my current Cleric except for Burst (and only used Burst once), as Blade Barrier is fast enough without, and most damage comes from kiting anyway. Self healing I do with Aura, Pots and Wands, unless I am about to use a shrine. Is it vital for healing later on?)

<snip>

Level 1 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Human Bonus) Maximize Spell
Feat: (Cleric) Follower of the Sovereign Host

Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Necromancy

Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Passage
Feat: (Cleric) Unyielding Sovereignty

Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Mental Toughness - Will most likely switch something more important in at 20, or even earlier

Level 12 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration

Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration

Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell

Level 21 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Epic Spell Penetration

Level 24 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy

Level 26 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell

Level 27 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Evocation (or Great Ability: Wisdom or Empower Spell, depending on what I really need)

Level 28 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Guardian Angel

Just a few random comments on feats:

- Spell Pen is thorny issue. Others may disagree with me, but I would say drop at both Epic Spell Pen and Greater Spell Pen for sure. And if you have to, drop Spell Pen as well. Unless you are planning to run extensively run EE Drow content? Most mobs don't need ANY Spell Pen, and most that do don't need tons of it. And those that do can still be affected by spells not requiring Spell Pen. Whatever Spell Pen you do take, push it off later. There is very little at low- or mid-levels with much Spell Resistance. There's no way I'd take it earlier than level 15.

- Take Quicken off your "maybe" list and put it on your "must-have" list. And take it much earlier. I try for level 12, myself. Oh...and I don't think you CAN take it at level 26. That's not a generic feat, that's only for Epic Destiny feats.

- Where's Empower? It should at least be on your "maybe" list. If you do take it, try to take it early. I love applying Maximize, Empower Healing, and Empower all to my Positive Energy Burst as early as possible, plus your other SLAs from both Heroic enhancements and Epic Destiny abilities.

- Enlarge can be useful; personally, I can't fit it. I rate Empower higher, myself. More a play-style thing. Yes, it can be used with instakills, and there is a certain satisfaction to using Destruction on a Beholder from way outside of the range of his anti-magic cone. However, I think people recommend it for the advantages in healing in certain raids. FoT, for instance, being able to heal the Stormreaver tank when over near the rest of the party at The Truthful One.

- About order, you don't need Spell Focus Necromancy at level 3. You don't get Slay Living until level 9. Also, I'd personally take Heighten a bit earlier.

- Personally, I don't value either Toughness (anymore) or Mental Toughness very much. Learning to be efficient with your SP will help you more than Mental Toughness. And you can get enough HP with gear; now that Toughness no longer is needed to unlock an extra 20-80 HP worth of enhancements, the benefit outweighs the cost on a feat-starved class.

[Henshaw135]

Ok, thank you very much for the answer. :-) A lot to think about, and it seems that fitting the Dragonmark into an offensive Cleric build means very tough decisions.

I tried fitting everything into the Feats, but obviously something has to be left out. Here's my latest "draft":

Level 1 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Healing Spell
Feat: (Human Bonus) Maximize Spell
Feat: (Cleric) Follower of the Sovereign Host

Level 3 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Empower Spell

Level 6 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Least Dragonmark of Passage
Feat: (Cleric) Unyielding Sovereignty

Level 9 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Focus: Necromancy

Level 12 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Heighten Spell - Or Quicken?

Level 15 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy

Level 18 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Quicken Spell - Or Heighten

Level 21 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Spell Penetration

Level 24 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Greater Spell Penetration

Level 27 (Cleric)
Feat: (Selected) Epic Spell Penetration - Or Great Ability: Wisdom - Or Spell Focus: Evocation


Level 26 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Toughness - Switched when possible to Epic Spell Power: Positive

Level 28 (Epic)
Feat: (Selected) Guardian Angel

So how does this one look then?

What I was thinking, is that if Spell Penetration is only for certain enemies, and practically only for the insta-kills, should I just drop the Penetration completely and concentrate on Spell Focus' instead for both Necromancy and Evocation? Or should I drop the Necromancy for Evocation? Kind of feels that the build is made for the insta-kills against everything, so it would practically change it completely... I don't want to end up with a build that can only healbot at Epic levels (as it's my "main", I want it to be flexible. I could make a healbot from my Morninglord easily), as I also plan on soloing what I can when I don't feel like grouping up.

In any case, switching Feats around later isn't a problem as such, as I can get Shards from auctions. Just would prefer not to blow hundreds in one go. :-)


Thank you again for the help. Any further ideas, insights and help is very welcome. :-)

[SirValentine]

New setup looks pretty good.

What I was thinking, is that if Spell Penetration is only for certain enemies, and practically only for the insta-kills, should I just drop the Penetration completely and concentrate on Spell Focus' instead for both Necromancy and Evocation?

Probably more bang for the buck. Even WITH all 3 feats, you'll still be iffy on breaking Spell Resistance on EE Drow on a first-lifer. And passing Spell Resistance still doesn't help if you don't also have enough DC.

Though, an advantage of having the first Spell Penetration feat, is that, if/when you get your destinies/fate-points to that point, twist in 6 extra Spell Penetration from Draconic & Magister for content where you want it. And use those twists better elsewhere when you don't. You can't swap feats back and forth every quest. I had that setup myself for a while, though I ended up dropping Spell Pen completely. Feats are even tighter if you try to fit the Wizard past life feat and Completionist into the build, too.

I don't want to end up with a build that can only healbot at Epic levels (as it's my "main", I want it to be flexible. I could make a healbot from my Morninglord easily), as I also plan on soloing what I can when I don't feel like grouping up.

That's very content-dependant. With gearing up and experience, I don't see why you'd have much trouble soloing or instakilling in any EH content, and lots of (the easier) EE content. Instakilling in the toughest EEs may not practical for you to reach anytime soon. That's not necessarily bad, though.

[Henshaw135]

Ok, thank you very much again. :-)

I will go with the latest version of the Feats, and see how it plays. If I bump into problems, I will return to the topic on them.


Any other observations and advices are still welcome, of course. :-)

[Henshaw135]

Did the LR +20 into Cleric, and tested on Blockade Buster twice.

I got the Radiant Servant tree up to the Aura, Human tree for Dimension Door and Warpriest for the +15 HP and DR 5/-.

900 SP went very fast. On the leftmost ship, the mobs seem to be mostly using range, so kiting them to a Blade Barrier doesn't work at all. My only damage spells were Nimbus of Light, Searing Light and Holy Smite, and they really didin't do the job at all. Slay living on the other hand did, even though it got saved against 3 or 4 times, and it's quite costly. Also the CD isn't really that practical on Slay Living to kill everything using it. I was out of SP after this ship on both goes, even after leeching the Cleric hireling dry with Divine Vitality. I still need to learn to use my spells economically. :-)

Didn't even realise how huge difference the SLA:s really make. Compared to my level 15 Cleric, my spell versions of Nimbus of Light and Searing light didn't really even scratch the mobs, even though I ran the quest on normal compared to hard. Ended up resetting both Warpriest and Human so I got Nimbus of light 3, Searing Light 3 and Efficient Maximise 2. Fully meta'd with Maximise and Empower, they should now do actual damage, and Blade Barrier will also be 6 SP cheaper per cast. Also put my Devotion/Healing off-hand back to my bag and got myself a Radiance/Radiance Scepter to pair it with my Impulse/Kinetic. Hopefully that will fix the SP problems. So, that's how Reality slaps Theory on the cheek with with an iron gauntlet. :-)

Still running with a Cleric hireling, so I have a buffer of SP if I need them (had to leech SP last night and also shrine to get the quest done), and don't need to waste any on healing. Aura and Burst seem to do healing just fine though for myself (hireling still gets low on HP).


So, it looks like I won't be able to fit the Warpriest DR (6 AP) in, and already had to push Dimension Door (7AP) back. I will get DD though, if I don't have to destroy my DPS doing so. 2 more levels should allow me to get it back (still need to get the 3:rd rank for Efficient Maximise). In the worst case I will have it just before 15.

[Henshaw135]

Ok, the latest changes I made to my Enhancements really did do the trick. My spells actually do great damage, with the higher crits being at the 290 range. Blade Barrier already does nice 150-190:ish crits, so I'm all set with single-target and AOE-kiting.

Ran Blockade Buster without shrining even once, and damage was amazing in comparison. Leeched SP from the Cleric hireling, and ended up with about 300-350 left.

Did the whole Ruins of Threnal (plus The Threnal Arena) with a guildmate last night duo on Elite (both of us level 12) and only ran out of SP one single time (the quest without a shrine). We did have amazing buffs though, as he had access to Stoneskin scrolls. Being melee, he did end up dying heroically a couple of times (sorry about that, still learning to Cleric!) to Ice Flencers and the Elder Beholder (first Beholders I have fought in the game...), but otherwise everything was very smooth.

After I learn some economic use of my spells, I will not have any more SP problems in quests. I do also have Twisted Talisman and Archivist's Necklace, which I usually use after buffing (Wizardry on Necklace, so have to be careful with switches).

I know the test wasn't completely on-level (4 out of 10 Threnal quests actually did scale to 12 on Elite, and Blockade Buster was level 13 quest on Normal), but Ruins of Threnal quests are quite extreme (well, some fights), so I'm very happy with the outcome.


Thank you again for the advice, and for pointing me into the right direction. :-)

[Henshaw135]

Returning to the topic after some experience with the build. :-)

After playing the build slowly to 14 (halfway towards 15) and having gotten all of the important stuff from Enhancements, I can say the build really does exactly what I expected from it, and more. Survivability is top notch, and DPS is very good. also the SP economy is great, and I haven't yet needed to do the Cleric Hireling shuffling trick for SP even once. I did come close at one point though, but still (barely) managed with Echoes.

As I went all out on casting, melee of the character is absolutely abysmal, and I have started eyeing for some Wis-based weapons. There seems to be one with Invaders! tokens, which I might try getting. The only time I have actually killed anything in melee was when I ran out of SP in the Frame Work end fight on Elite. The last mob left was the red-named caster (shaman or such, as he self-healed) for which echoes weren't giving SP back fast enough, so he just healed back to 15-20% every time I got him to 1-5%... Got the last 1% down (barely, as he already was in heal animation) with my wet noodles. ;-P It was my own fault that I did run out of SP though, as my kite zone was 4 (Maximized) Blade Barriers... Panicked a bit because of the yellow dungeon alert on top of the 3 (or 4?) red-names... :-)
So, melee would be nice to have as backup, but at the moment I'm hitting for 5-10 (might be less) points if I even hit anything at all with the 14 Str... I'm dual wielding scepters in any case, as I am pure caster.

Casting power feels very high, and that's comparing to my Wizard, Sorcerer and my Morninglord caster Cleric (small build differences, and different race). The SLA:s hit decently hard, Blade Barrier is very reliable with Maximize, Divine Power does wonders against bosses (everything else dies way before it's 16s duration finishes, so don't use it on lower than bosses) and 2 insta-kills take care of any situations with annoying mobs. Also Banishment's DC is high enough to actually work on Beholders.

Survivability is quite extreme, compared to anything I have had before, even my Paladin (Paladin 10 / Rogue 2). It's true my Paladin didn't die once, but he was close a few times against Casters, and would probably have been in much more trouble at 13+ against the insta-killing casters that are now very common. I do have 4 pairs of Fleshrender Goggles, but I also have 5 characters I play, so the fewer of them needs them, the better, which is now only 2.
I have only used Aura about 10-15 times total, except in Hold for Reinforcements, in which I had the babysitting duty while my guildmate was killing stuff. Burst I have used maybe 3 times total. I still run with the Cleric Hireling for the extra SP, so it ends up healing me most of the times, if I haven't parked it somewhere safe. If I have, one Aura fixes about anything the enemies can throw my way. I ran Frame Work on yellow dungeon alert constantly without any trouble (saving SP by pulling as much as I could at once), so the Cleric was mostly parked.


As it is, I don't think I can fit in the Warpriest tree's 5/- DR, 15 HP and 10 PRR. I really would like to, but with 32 points for Aura, 41 points to DD tree, and Dimension Door for 7 points from Human racial tree, there just aren't any points left. As for the 7 points for Dimension Door, I really hope it's going to be worth it, as the investment is quite huge... I do get 1 point of Wisdom and 2 different Action Boosts with it though, so it's not a complete waste in any case, and I think it makes the price ok.


Thank you for the interest in the thread, and as before, comments, ideas and tips are very welcome. :-)