I need a "Save" function

[almaniac]

The title pretty much says it all. I used to play regularly with a group of 7 other people. Now we're down to 2 (including me) for one simple reason; frustration over not being able to finish longer quests in a reasonable amount of time.

We all are pretty busy but we set aside 2 hours a week to play, and we all had VIP accounts. Unfortunately, that meant we could often do only a single adventure, and sometimes not even that. While we love the story telling and richness of the long adventures, we just didn't end up playing them, and after awhile the shorter content gets dry (how many times can you do an orchard run?).

If we could save the progress of the party it would totally transform the game for us, and we'd get the rest of the guys back I'm sure. We can't be the only ones who would like this. It would even be awesome for soloing.

Mechanically it could work like this perhaps:

1) When no combat is ensuing, the party leader can initiate a save.
2) Saving logs those characters out. We don't want it to become a "redo", or a way to keep retrying a difficult part of the dungeon.
3) A timer starts on those characters (1 hour? 3 hours?). Until the timer ends they cannot log back in.
4) Some time later the party logs back in.
5) The characters go to some kind of lobby or something until everyone is in, or the party leader re-starts the dungeon.
6) Once restarted characters that don't come back are affected the same way they would be if they left the dungeon; so is the party.
7) New characters can join the party with all the usual consequences of joining late.
8) A player can pull their character out of the saved dungeon any time after the timer ends, but they will not be able to re-join the saved state except as a new joiner.

Anyway, something like that would be huge for us. It would allow people with only a couple hours (or less) at a time to fully enjoy the game.

[almaniac]

I was just thinking, mechanically, it would make sense for a save point to be deleted as soon as the adventure was restarted. That would absolutely stop people using a save function as "redo".

[Fedora1]

Then what would you do when a snotty nosed 12 year old PUG leader decides to intiate a "save" without party consent? Now 5 players are unable to login with their toons for hours.

[TrinityTurtle]

Then what would you do when a snotty nosed 12 year old PUG leader decides to intiate a "save" without party consent? Now 5 players are unable to login with their toons for hours.

Building on this concern, what would happen if say the three hour timer was put in place, and you managed to get back in and in the middle of a quest the rest of your group also logs back on? Or even if you were standing around crafting or working on y our auctions? Would the quest fail for the other five, or would you be sucked in, or...what?

[Fedora1]

Yeah, the only way I see a "Save" function working is in solo play.

[almaniac]

Building on this concern, what would happen if say the three hour timer was put in place, and you managed to get back in and in the middle of a quest the rest of your group also logs back on? Or even if you were standing around crafting or working on y our auctions? Would the quest fail for the other five, or would you be sucked in, or...what?

Actually, I think I already addressed this. Characters in a saved party could enter though some kind of lobby (like the Hall of Heros perhaps). Re-entering could be like it's done for any other dungeon, or the party could be re-entered as a group (like what happens inside the Path of Inspiration for example). I suppose a late-comer could come back in through the lobby, with all the usual effects of coming in late (no loot in chests discovered while out; that kind of thing).

If you really wanted to use the character to do something else, the interface could allow that. In that case though I'd say the character should be booted from the party. Otherwise it would just be a way to get around re-entry penalties.

There are already game mechanics to handle people joining late, leaving, and coming back in; that can all be left alone. The only new aspect would really be the ability to save and come back to where you left off at a later time.

[Qhualor]

One of the great things about DDO is that its live action with no pause button. I would hate to see it go down this road which would lead to eventually people asking to pause mid combat to heal up, switch weapons, look through your bag for something that a lot of other games allow.

[almaniac]

Then what would you do when a snotty nosed 12 year old PUG leader decides to intiate a "save" without party consent? Now 5 players are unable to login with their toons for hours.

Well, the mechanics are only a suggestion, not a design document. You raise a good point, and maybe the timer idea doesn't add anything anyway. I was trying to think of a way to avoid do-overs. Maybe there's a better way. One of the guys I used to play with suggested it could be an option when setting up a party to do a dungeon. Then, if you didn't want to let someone lock you out that way you could simply not join those PUGs.

Since I rarely do PUGs, and usually only play with people I know, I wasn't thinking of that context. Any suggestions for how it could work for more "anonymous" groups?

[RedHost]

We all are pretty busy but we set aside 2 hours a week to play, and we all had VIP accounts. Unfortunately, that meant we could often do only a single adventure, and sometimes not even that.

Wait, what quest in DDO takes 2 hours to complete?!

Compared to every other online game I have played, DDO is loaded with very fast and easily accessible content. In games like WoW during the Vanilla and Burning Crusade eras there was an absolute need for dungeon progress to be saved, because it was not reasonable for all groups to complete it in a given span of time. I can think of absolutely nothing in DDO that has that same need. I can think of very few quests or raids that top an hour of slow play.

[Havok.cry]

Wait, what quest in DDO takes 2 hours to complete?!

Compared to every other online game I have played, DDO is loaded with very fast and easily accessible content. In games like WoW during the Vanilla and Burning Crusade eras there was an absolute need for dungeon progress to be saved, because it was not reasonable for all groups to complete it in a given span of time. I can think of absolutely nothing in DDO that has that same need. I can think of very few quests or raids that top an hour of slow play.

Larger dungeons can take hours if you are exploring every nook and cranny, grabbing every optional and picking up every collectible. I did this in my first chains of flame run solo and it took me five hours to complete. It was fun. Zerging has it's place and is fun too, but zerging is not the only way to play.

[droid327]

What I'm driving at is the same ability to run a quest over several sessions that we had in the pen-and-paper version.

Wait, what quest in DDO takes 2 hours to complete?!

That's what I was wondering, too. That "pick up where you left off last week" functionality already IS in the game, by virtue of "campaigns" (quest packs) being broken up into independent quests. In a way, completing a quest is really just reaching the "save point" of the campaign. Just like you'd run one campaign that tells an overarching story, each quest pack (and now, Sagas, even more broadly) tell an overarching cohesive story.

Larger dungeons can take hours if you are exploring every nook and cranny, grabbing every optional and picking up every collectible. I did this in my first chains of flame run solo and it took me five hours to complete. It was fun. Zerging has it's place and is fun too, but zerging is not the only way to play.

There's a middle ground between zerging and utter completionism. Even completing most optionals and progressing casually, quests shouldn't take more than 45 mins-1 hr. If you want to play uber-completionist, that's fine of course - but just realize that you're an outlier in the playerbase, and don't expect them to implement a special mechanic just so you can log back in tomorrow and finish breaking every single crate in Ruined Halls or looking for the secret rainbow room in Shadow Crypt

If that's how you like to play, and you really cant even find a 90 minute block of time to devote to a quest, there's always (aptly-named) Explorer areas, which let you explore around at your own pace without ever 'losing progress' like you do if you quit out of a quest.

[hacknoid]

That's what I was wondering, too. That "pick up where you left off last week" functionality already IS in the game, by virtue of "campaigns" (quest packs) being broken up into independent quests. In a way, completing a quest is really just reaching the "save point" of the campaign. Just like you'd run one campaign that tells an overarching story, each quest pack (and now, Sagas, even more broadly) tell an overarching cohesive story.



There's a middle ground between zerging and utter completionism. Even completing most optionals and progressing casually, quests shouldn't take more than 45 mins-1 hr. If you want to play uber-completionist, that's fine of course - but just realize that you're an outlier in the playerbase, and don't expect them to implement a special mechanic just so you can log back in tomorrow and finish breaking every single crate in Ruined Halls or looking for the secret rainbow room in Shadow Crypt

If that's how you like to play, and you really cant even find a 90 minute block of time to devote to a quest, there's always (aptly-named) Explorer areas, which let you explore around at your own pace without ever 'losing progress' like you do if you quit out of a quest.

Well, quests like The Pit or Spies in the House come to mind, especially the first time you play them. I enjoy the fun of going in with people who do not know a quest, and as such its much more like a true adventure. This can take longer. Basically, most of the quests listed as "very long" WILL take more than an hour to play easily, and can top 2 hrs if you are trying to be careful. VoN is another long one, again, if you're new to it and not just rushing through.

I personally really enjoy the explorer areas for exactly that reason - I can play as long as I have time, and then abandon at any point without feeling I am losing anything. But if I play, say, 5 hours a week, and I have to abandon a quest I have been running for even 1 hour because the end is nowhere in sight, then I am effectively wasting 20% of my play time.

I may be the outlier, but as I said above - something like this may actually attract a user base that otherwise wouldn't play or stick with it.

[Havok.cry]

and don't expect them to implement a special mechanic

My expectations of turbine are low.... pretty much non-existant. I would expect an ant colony under my house to start cooking me twelve course meals on silver, before I would actually expect turbine to do anything I want. That won't stop me from wanting turbine to do things. I hope you can appreciate the difference between wanting and expecting.

[Charononus]

Larger dungeons can take hours if you are exploring every nook and cranny, grabbing every optional and picking up every collectible. I did this in my first chains of flame run solo and it took me five hours to complete. It was fun. Zerging has it's place and is fun too, but zerging is not the only way to play.

Were you taking five min breaks after killing each mob? Seriously I don't know how that quest could take that long and it's one of the longer quests I can think of.

OP

Not signed

There is no need for this because the longest quests in ddo can be done in under two hours by a flower sniffing group as long as they aren't literally taking a 5 minute break after each kill.

[Enoach]

I am all for casual gamming but I am sorry I just don't see the need for this type of feature in DDO. For me having the optional XP earned on the spot helps groups continue to move forward even if they don't have time now to complete the whole quest.


And I'm one that spent 5 hours in a ELITE VON3 back long ago my first time through when XP death penalty existed and shrines could only be used once, even the raise shrines. It took us 45 minutes to get to the end fight, and the rest of the time to beat the boss - no TR, no TWINK and even then after I completed I walked out 1 level lower then when I started. Sure we should of just quit after the 3rd attempt but boy was it fun .

[Havok.cry]

Were you taking five min breaks after killing each mob? Seriously I don't know how that quest could take that long and it's one of the longer quests I can think of.

OP

Not signed

There is no need for this because the longest quests in ddo can be done in under two hours by a flower sniffing group as long as they aren't literally taking a 5 minute break after each kill.

Solo at level elite chains of flame. I was on a AA elf fighter back in 2010, when the devs still really hated ranged combat... it sometimes took me five minutes just to kill a mob. I picked up every collectible, did every optional. I rescued every slave, even the extra ones. When you don't have spells helping you out, to get some of them I had to drop down and re-cover ground I had already cleared... I had to do this many times. The map was unfamiliar (and I won't look at the wiki on my first time through a dungeon) to me and I got turned around in this process several times. I had to examine all the ledges to see if they went anywhere. I had to figure out why there were portals way down in the lava. I had no blindness ward item and no remove blindness pots until I looted the ogre magi chest. That fight took a long time. I had no speed boosts as I was not the best player at keeping, or even sometimes getting, consumables, and it was my first life. Now days I can complete it a lot faster than that first run (average 30 minutes solo, same archer a few lives later). Coalescence chamber took me longer on my first run though... also solo. Shadow crypt took me about four hours the first time through, no wiki, no guide, solo, same archer.

I do have to point out to you, that while any group CAN complete any quest in a fairly short amount of time, very few quests have time limits, and no one is bound by forum instituted time limits on their quests unless they want to be.

What I am wondering is, since this would have no impact on your gameplay at all, and it would improve the gameplay of others, why are you opposed to the idea? I know alot of solo players who would love this feature. I know a lot of players that are parents or spouses that would love this feature. I know a lot of horny guys with willing girlfriends-that-need-it-now-not-later that would love this feature. I know drunken people who fall asleep at the keyboard that would love this feature. So again, why would you be opposed to a feature that would have no impact on you at all, but would help many others enjoy the game more?

[Charononus]

What I am wondering is, since this would have no impact on your gameplay at all, and it would improve the gameplay of others, why are you opposed to the idea? I know alot of solo players who would love this feature. I know a lot of players that are parents or spouses that would love this feature. I know a lot of horny guys with willing girlfriends-that-need-it-now-not-later that would love this feature. I know drunken people who fall asleep at the keyboard that would love this feature. So again, why would you be opposed to a feature that would have no impact on you at all, but would help many others enjoy the game more?

1) Dev time is limited, doing this would take dev's off of other things whether it be new content or bug fixes.

2) I have zero confidence that it would go well, I think it would have the potential to break quests for a significant amount of time before it was fixed.

3) Someone would find a griefing method to do it.

It fails risk/reward is my basic reasoning.

[Hoglum]

Something like this would be nice. Maybe a small room behind shrines where you could logout then enter at that point later on. Sort of like the Threnal tent maybe. This could potentially allow for larger dungeons rather the the hallway/boss fight set ups we see.

I'm not sure what would work but I like larger dungeons & can understand the time limits people have. PUGs could be problematic though. Not sure how to solve that.

[Jeremiah179]

I think the mechanic would have to be this -- the party leader puts up the lfm which states it is a mode in which you can all leave and come back.

When you join this group - you are warned and click okay. If they are going to charge Astral Shards for this feature, they will not have a warning I imagine. (Little Turbine jab... sorry!)

In this mode, you can click on any ress shrine while alive and it will ask if you want to save and close quest. This will log everyone out. This can only be done by the leader.

No timer. When you click on your character to log in again... it says "Party Quest Paused. Do you wish to enter waiting room?" Small room, no character functions except chat. Portal into quest at the shrine you left at...Or Party Quest in Progress, meaning the leader has already restarted. You would port in at the shrine you left on and catch up to the group. Similar to if you "DC'd" at that shrine.

**Once the party leaves that quest, all unlogged characters would be released. - if they clicked to log in it could log in normally - or a pop up message - Paused Quest Completed.... Whatever.

If you decline to enter waiting room... you abandon the group basically and you are free to move about the game freely again.
If you are in the waiting room and no one shows up...you can log out, and re log in and abandon if you wish.

Turbine could charge Astral Shards for this.
The leader should have to pay the entire amount. They would be the only ones who could continue a quest from the waiting room or directly - this is less complicated. The group members are at their own risk then.

I think the whole point of this mechanic is for friends or a guild to have a set group play the maximum amount of time. TR groups are an example - if they were committed to staying together, they could use this mechanic to play until someone had to leave and then everyone parks and no cheating! hehe

Another group that might take advantage are Static Groups - where everyone has agreed to certain rules... always playing on XX and XX time a week for 2 hours each and agreeing not to play those characters otherwise.


Hope this helps get this in Update 34 --- cause I do not feel it serves enough or would earn them enough. But I could see it working.

[bsquishwizzy]

The title pretty much says it all. I used to play regularly with a group of 7 other people. Now we're down to 2 (including me) for one simple reason; frustration over not being able to finish longer quests in a reasonable amount of time.

We all are pretty busy but we set aside 2 hours a week to play, and we all had VIP accounts. Unfortunately, that meant we could often do only a single adventure, and sometimes not even that. While we love the story telling and richness of the long adventures, we just didn't end up playing them, and after awhile the shorter content gets dry (how many times can you do an orchard run?).

If we could save the progress of the party it would totally transform the game for us, and we'd get the rest of the guys back I'm sure. We can't be the only ones who would like this. It would even be awesome for soloing.

Mechanically it could work like this perhaps:

1) When no combat is ensuing, the party leader can initiate a save.
2) Saving logs those characters out. We don't want it to become a "redo", or a way to keep retrying a difficult part of the dungeon.
3) A timer starts on those characters (1 hour? 3 hours?). Until the timer ends they cannot log back in.
4) Some time later the party logs back in.
5) The characters go to some kind of lobby or something until everyone is in, or the party leader re-starts the dungeon.
6) Once restarted characters that don't come back are affected the same way they would be if they left the dungeon; so is the party.
7) New characters can join the party with all the usual consequences of joining late.
8) A player can pull their character out of the saved dungeon any time after the timer ends, but they will not be able to re-join the saved state except as a new joiner.

Anyway, something like that would be huge for us. It would allow people with only a couple hours (or less) at a time to fully enjoy the game.

I understand the attraction for this kind of capability, but in a real-time game / MMO this will probably never happen. The mechanics to make this happen would be both a resource hog, and a nightmare to implement.

First, they only feasible / safe place to put a saved game would be on the server. Transferring stuff back and forth to a client-side PC and making it all sync up without the potential for loss of communications is a lot of work for little-to-no benefit. That means you have to create an image of the quest somewhere as to where you left of: what mobs you killed, where you were, what loot you had, what level you were on…and so on. That can potentially be a lot of data. I won’t even go into people hacking saved games as an easy exploit.

So you have to preserve that data somewhere, for an unspecified amount of time, on the server. That means a growing disk allocation for saved games. Somewhere in there you need to determine how long do you keep a saved game before determining that it is abandoned, and them blowing it away with some housekeeping process running on the server. This means disk access, possibly more lag and so on. Not a good thing.

And what happens when one of the players decides to drop group, or run it independently of the group? Then you have to remove that player from the saved game, replace the stuff he took and place it somewhere in the game, or delete it altogether. Or, you lock out the player from playing the game until either the saved game goes away, or until the quest is complete. Because there is a possibility that the player may level-up outside of the quest, and that throws off the quest entirely. I mean, there are a gabazillion variables that come into play when you decide to “freeze” a quest in time in a system that is basically considered “real time.”

Either way you slice it, it is a convoluted mess that has ZERO payback for the amount of work you have to put into it. It works on a PC or with limited, static groups. In an MMO like DDO it is a nightmare all around.