Zombie & Vampire Form

[Daemoneyes]

I'd really like to see Necrotic Bolt and Blast shifted down one tier each and than Harm added as an SLA to tier 5 with the pre-req arrows removed or at least don't require the 3 offensives SLAs for it it.

yupp
either they should give us SLA which cure stat damage or add stat cure to Death Aura (1 per tick) and to NEB (6-12)

[Daemoneyes]

First let us keep in mind at what point each of these forms are available

Zombie is available at a minimum of Level 3 and 5 AP spent in the PM tree.
What this shroud does is give the Wizard a melee option at the sacrifice of 1 DC and 2 CHAR skills. The 1 DC at lower levels may or may not effect the effectiveness of spells depending on feats and equipment available. The -20% attack speed can be overcome with the use of Haste making it only -5%. But movement speed would not necessarily be effected because the PM is still considered an Intelligent Undead.

Combine that with unarmed combat the 1d6 INT damage can be a powerful ability to stun low level creatures as most don't have high intelligence scores.

Vampire is available at a minimum of Level 6 and 10 AP spent in the PM tree.
It has no negatives to stats, only positives like +2 strength and charisma and a bonus of +2 DC to Enchantment as well as -25% threat. Unarmed attacks can generate a negative level on a natural 20.

Yes they are more susceptible to light damage and using this form in quests full of light damage is hazardous. However, if taking a more vampire type approach to combat - strike fast, hard and disappear out of range, or utilizing the "Charms" of the enhanced abilities such as Diplomacy/Bluff as well as control spells, it is possible to survive against light damage. Additionally investment into the Cloak of Night enhancement can reduce the light damage by as much as 50%. Uses of spell absorption items can also help reduce light damage.

In my opinion most wizards don't use vampire form because they are scared of the light damage (that is not in every quest) as well as they don't have a mind towards Enchantment spells but are looking more at spells that do damage. In many cases not understanding that you don't have to kill everything in every dungeon to win. Sometimes it is better to let them kill each other and move on to the end chest instead.

I still don't recommend Undead form for the first 1/2 of Running with the Devils, but if the forms are used to their strengths they can make for a very versatile and powerful wizard.

Also very few PMs that get to Wraith and Lich forms will ever return to the Level 3 and Level 6 versions as they don't offer anything these two forms could cover. With the new enhancement system I will us Wraith form for quests where sneaking through them is better resource wise then steamrolling - Such as Claw of Vulcore.

My point is that the earlier forms are fine as they are with their benefits vs retractors.

Cloak of night also reduces heal by the same amount, thus it only makes you die faster.
Spell Absorb is STILL bugged, so you have ZERO heal with it and it does not work against most forms of Light damage.

[Havok.cry]

If I had to guess, vampire was chosen because of pop culture, even though it would be a really really stupid descision to saddle yourself with all the vulnerabilities of a vampire.

But this game is not pop culture and, as I have said since vampire form hit lammania originally: Shroud of the Mummy would have been much, much better, more DnDish, and it wouldn't be the same generic **** every other game that deals with an undead player has.

Shroud of the ghoul/ghast/wight would have been a better choice than shroud of the zombie. No one ever aspires to becoming a mindless shambling corpse.

If they were going to be really cool about it, they would have each level have a multiple enhancement selector with multiple options for undead forms for that level. Keep the options they have now, and add more. I would do zombie/ghoul, vampire/mummy, wraith/skeleton mage lich/quell. Zombie would give a butt load of hp, but make you all around slower, and ghoul would apply disease procs to your attacks and make you a bit faster. Vampire would be as it is now with it's enchantment bonuses, and mummy would give it's fear aura and fear bonuses. Wraith as is now, skeleton mage would give a free lesser death aura and skeletal DR. Lich would be as is, and quell would give no stat bonuses, but would give the in-corporeality of wraith form along with it's denial of divine powers (with a switch to be usable in public whenever something is bugged to affect PMs in public areas).

[Daemoneyes]

Please keep in Mind i do NOT want a pure buff, i just want PM to be fun to play and to be balanced & fair.
Which is it not in Zombie form with its ultra low attack speed and its Suicide with Vampire in every quest that has Light damage.
Which is it not with almost no way to cure stat damage.
Which is it not when a WF can selfheal 4 times more effective, not even counting the sp/heal ratio.

Zombie Monk is just a waste of a party slot in my opinion, 20% less damage? who came up with this? Scaling is the most important thing in dps and 20% less damage is nothing you can ignore or make up for.

Vamps getting one shotted by the random light castings of mobs, only total newbs run as vamp, make it viable.
And no its not only in RWTD, its in a lot of quests that mobs randomly cast light spells.

Stat damage, i really hate this. Often we dont even get a SAVE, why? Thats ridicules

So much bad ideas along with great fluff, a well enough ranting.
hf

[Daemoneyes]

If I had to guess, vampire was chosen because of pop culture, even though it would be a really really stupid descision to saddle yourself with all the vulnerabilities of a vampire.

But this game is not pop culture and, as I have said since vampire form hit lammania originally: Shroud of the Mummy would have been much, much better, more DnDish, and it wouldn't be the same generic **** every other game that deals with an undead player has.

Shroud of the ghoul/ghast/wight would have been a better choice than shroud of the zombie. No one ever aspires to becoming a mindless shambling corpse.

If they were going to be really cool about it, they would have each level have a multiple enhancement selector with multiple options for undead forms for that level. Keep the options they have now, and add more. I would do zombie/ghoul, vampire/mummy, wraith/skeleton mage lich/quell. Zombie would give a butt load of hp, but make you all around slower, and ghoul would apply disease procs to your attacks and make you a bit faster. Vampire would be as it is now with it's enchantment bonuses, and mummy would give it's fear aura and fear bonuses. Wraith as is now, skeleton mage would give a free lesser death aura and skeletal DR. Lich would be as is, and quell would give no stat bonuses, but would give the in-corporeality of wraith form along with it's denial of divine powers (with a switch to be usable in public whenever something is bugged to affect PMs in public areas).

Depends, as power player vampire in dnd can be good because of gaseous form and the easy to aquire Darkness spell
My GM wanted to wrangle me when he found out that i had Anchored Darkness and Locate Spells at every piece of my Equipment ^_^

[Failedlegend]

Ah man I would love if Vamp was replaced by Quell giving us an option vs. light spell casters w/o having to drop form and would be useful even into Epic

I'd say just make Quell form grant immunity to divine spells instead of blocking divine casting. I'd also make the incorp only 10% so it doesn't step on Wraith's toes

For Mummy (as opposed to zombie as lvl 3 core) I's say on unarmed hit apply Mummy Despair, Mummy Rot & Mummy Curse, no modifier to attack/movement speed, x2 fire damage and maybe some Mummy specific Divine SLAs.

So it would be

PM 3 Zombie/Mummy

PM 6 Vamp/Quell

PM 12 Wraith

PM 18 Lich

The divine SLAs make Mummy useful at all levels especially vs. Undead or other neg energy immune baddies and Quell will be useful when there's a heavy divine/light damage presence than of course Wraith is useful due to it's incorp, +20 Balance/MS (+ invis spell) and innate FF, than of course Lich is the best spellcaster form. Zombie & Vamp are left in primarily for multi-classing considerations.

I think for Divine SLAs Mummy should get Inflict Mod Wounds (can target self), Nimbus of Light, Unholy Blight, Slay Living and Create Undead. Caster Level obviously based on Wizard Level

Note: PMs need Harm as a tier 5 SLA

[Havok.cry]

Depends, as power player vampire in dnd can be good because of gaseous form and the easy to aquire Darkness spell
My GM wanted to wrangle me when he found out that i had Anchored Darkness and Locate Spells at every piece of my Equipment ^_^

I have had many players try to be vampires. Vampire's have sooooooo many weaknesses it was trivial to neutralize any benefit they gave. The rest of the party got tired of trying to work around the vampire's deficiencies and the characters were always abandoned (by their own player not the party). I mean seriously you are repelled by a strongly presented holy symbol. You essentially run away from anyone and everyone who can afford a 1gp item. At least they didn't give shroud of the vampire all the weaknesses of an actual vampire lol.

Now I did have one player manage to get himself turned into a ghost, and that was a bada$$ mofo. He was **** near impossible to reign in. Very OP. Most OP paladin I ever did see. (Ghosts, unlike most undead could have alignments other than CE, and generally had the alignment they had in life.) He later became an NPC in future games I set in the same world.

(FYI, gaseous form was easily countered by the stone shape spell, essentially encasing them in an air tight bubble of rock, their time runs out and they are done for. And don't forget the double damage from fire, not just light, but fire, the single most common elemental damage type in DnD. Most games I played in were high magic settings. I would guess that in a lower magic setting a vampire might be a more powerful thing to play, but not in a high magic setting.)

[Daemoneyes]

I have had many players try to be vampires. Vampire's have sooooooo many weaknesses it was trivial to neutralize any benefit they gave. The rest of the party got tired of trying to work around the vampire's deficiencies and the characters were always abandoned (by their own player not the party). I mean seriously you are repelled by a strongly presented holy symbol. You essentially run away from anyone and everyone who can afford a 1gp item. At least they didn't give shroud of the vampire all the weaknesses of an actual vampire lol.

Now I did have one player manage to get himself turned into a ghost, and that was a bada$$ mofo. He was **** near impossible to reign in. Very OP. Most OP paladin I ever did see. (Ghosts, unlike most undead could have alignments other than CE, and generally had the alignment they had in life.) He later became an NPC in future games I set in the same world.

(FYI, gaseous form was easily countered by the stone shape spell, essentially encasing them in an air tight bubble of rock, their time runs out and they are done for. Most games I played in were high magic settings. I would guess that in a lower magic setting a vampire might be a more powerful thing to play, but not in a high magic setting.)

Well we didnt play much high magic because it runs out of balance way to fast.
Also i think the appreciation for all the exotic and magic stuff vanishes if you can buy it on every market or if its easy to become a magician.
And our GMs did always try to play the NPC as if they had only the knowledge the NPC could have, so never had to bother much with Holy Symbols/Water. Only a few times but that was fun and Holy Symbols are not everywhere. Sure they are in some homes and churches but most are easy to remove once you charmed a young lady from that village

I survived 5months before i got staked and had to reroll but that time was a lot of fun and till the end my party members didnt even know i was a vamp, they all thought i was a warlock ^^
(because of all the drow armor they never got suspicious about me using darkness the whole time =) )

[bsquishwizzy]

If that's the case they don't need the light damage debuff, also a way to heal stat damage with potions or spells they can natively cast would be needed.

They didn’t have one before, I personally don’t see any problem taking it away now. But that is not addressing the issue I was commenting on. The person wanted them to “fix stat damage.” Given all of the immunities and benefits to going into form – like displacement, increased fort, spell immunities, and so on – with stat damage out of the picture what you’re left with as far as downsides is light damage sensitivity, and not being able to use positive healing which is a non-issue with death auras and NEB. It would make the toon UNBELEIVEABLY unbalanced.

Hence, the reason why I think that “fixing” the stat damage bug is a bad idea.

Take both trees, why not? AM isn't that appealing to me anyway.

I take most of PM and some of AM, but I personally like taking a PrE to the max when I do. It has its advantages.

AM is nice (or was nice) for the SP. I’m so-so on the SLAs.

[bsquishwizzy]

This is nuts.

Please keep in Mind i do NOT want a pure buff, i just want PM to be fun to play and to be balanced & fair.

If you want “balanced”, then you need to start putting in more broken stuff for a PM. Right now PM is an “Easy” button for arcanes. What you want is a pure buff, while saying you don’t want a pure buff.


Which is it not in Zombie form with its ultra low attack speed and its Suicide with Vampire in every quest that has Light damage.

Which is it not when a WF can selfheal 4 times more effective, not even counting the sp/heal ratio.

Do WF AMs have auras? No.

Do the repair spells damage enemies while they heal you? No.

Can you double-up healing when two PMs with auras going? Nope.

Can a cleric casting Repair…oh wait, divines don’t have Repair! But they do have Harm, which gives a PM an alternate source of healing.

What is clear to me is that you’ve probably haven’t run a PM much. PM healing is ridiculously diverse.

Zombie Monk is just a waste of a party slot in my opinion, 20% less damage? who came up with this? Scaling is the most important thing in dps and 20% less damage is nothing you can ignore or make up for.

Well, this gets to the crux of the problem. A Zombie Monk? What genius thought THAT one up?

Yeah, let’s take a class known for their speed and agility…and put them in a shroud (meant for a wizard, I might add) that works COUNTER to the stated goal of the class, then complain about how the wizard shroud is screwed up. That’s frickin’ insane. The point of multi-classing is to use what is available to get what you want out of a toon. It is not modifying the properties of another class to fit your build. That’s just plain nuts.

Vamps getting one shotted by the random light castings of mobs, only total newbs run as vamp, make it viable.

There are Zombie, Wraith, and Lich shrouds available. Wraith is probably better as it give you displacement and a fort boost. Vampire is meant for increasing enchantment spells. Furthermore, if you’re using Vampire form in Running with the Devils, you frickin’ deserve to be a soul stone.

And no its not only in RWTD, its in a lot of quests that mobs randomly cast light spells.

Oh, I dunno…maybe use the Enchantment abilities of the Vampire form to do CC on the people who spam light spells so they can’t spam them? Unless you want to use it multi-class, in which case my suggestion is to not use Vampire form…

So much bad ideas along with great fluff, a well enough ranting.
hf

It is clear you want to modify PM so that it is your ideal multi-class build, which is a really dumb idea.

A PM on its own is an EASY PrE to play. And when you hit Wraith and Lich, you’re almost god-like with power. With the right gear, virtually nothing can crit you, and you can deal devastating amounts of damage to a lot of mobs. Changing this would only make it more powerful at lower levels, and unbalance the class entirely.

[EllisDee37]

Do WF AMs have auras? No.

Can you double-up healing when two PMs with auras going? Nope.

Well, actually, multiple WF AMs can get the equivalent of overlapping auras by using mass repair critical.

[Havok.cry]

Well we didnt play much high magic because it runs out of balance way to fast.
Also i think the appreciation for all the exotic and magic stuff vanishes if you can buy it on every market or if its easy to become a magician.
And our GMs did always try to play the NPC as if they had only the knowledge the NPC could have, so never had to bother much with Holy Symbols/Water. Only a few times but that was fun and Holy Symbols are not everywhere. Sure they are in some homes and churches but most are easy to remove once you charmed a young lady from that village

I survived 5months before i got staked and had to reroll but that time was a lot of fun and till the end my party members didnt even know i was a vamp, they all thought i was a warlock ^^
(because of all the drow armor they never got suspicious about me using darkness the whole time =) )

Most GMs I have seen don't do high magic very well. They make it easily available to the players and then just run the npcs the same as if it was a normal or low magic game. The players tend to balance them selves out in their decision making if they realize that everything they do, the NPCs can do too. If it is done right it can be alot of fun. Appreciation for all the magic stuff isn't as important though, part of the setting is that it is common place, so it is supposed to be that way.

I too, and the gms I play with, keep their NPCs with just the knowledge they should have. I wouldn't instantly give everyone around the new vampire a holy symbol. Instead I use reputation-ish stuff. Eventually word gets out that there is a vampire around. Clerics or vampire hunters come to take care of the problem and they arm the poor hapless commoners with the things they can to protect themselves, like holy symbols. My players were not very good at keeping their presence a secret, so it never took more than a week game time for said word to get out.

One of the biggest downsides my players found to playing a vampire was the need to return to their grave each morning, or if they ever got forced into gaseous form. Not just any old coffin or grave would do, it had to be their coffin or grave. That severely reduced the area they could operate in, and the group really liked to be abroad.

The two most successful undead characters I ever saw was the ghost paladin that I mentioned earlier, He just got OP. The other was a mummy who passed himself off as a leper. He wasn't very popular, but the roleplaying was awesome and he managed some things you wouldn't believe. But as I said, any time I ever saw a player try to be a vampire, it never went well for him, even if I wasn't the GM.

[Daemoneyes]

This is nuts.



If you want “balanced”, then you need to start putting in more broken stuff for a PM. Right now PM is an “Easy” button for arcanes. What you want is a pure buff, while saying you don’t want a pure buff.

If you think PM is easy button try WF, its way stronger than PM can hope to become.

Do WF AMs have auras? No.

Aura is so low heal it could also be out of combat because it wont matter infight.

Do the repair spells damage enemies while they heal you? No.

you kidding me?
thats such a joke of damage its not even funny, also most mobs are immune to it anyway.

Can you double-up healing when two PMs with auras going? Nope.

you wont need double up healing as WF because you can selfheal to full with one cast, which costs half of a metad NEB.
And that meta NEB wont heal you full.

Can a cleric casting Repair…oh wait, divines don’t have Repair! But they do have Harm, which gives a PM an alternate source of healing.

almost no Cleric has Harm slotted

What is clear to me is that you’ve probably haven’t run a PM much. PM healing is ridiculously diverse.

yeah guess a pure PM and 3 lifes as multiclass PM wont allow me to talk here, am i right.

Well, this gets to the crux of the problem. A Zombie Monk? What genius thought THAT one up?

Yeah, let’s take a class known for their speed and agility…and put them in a shroud (meant for a wizard, I might add) that works COUNTER to the stated goal of the class, then complain about how the wizard shroud is screwed up. That’s frickin’ insane. The point of multi-classing is to use what is available to get what you want out of a toon. It is not modifying the properties of another class to fit your build. That’s just plain nuts.



There are Zombie, Wraith, and Lich shrouds available. Wraith is probably better as it give you displacement and a fort boost. Vampire is meant for increasing enchantment spells. Furthermore, if you’re using Vampire form in Running with the Devils, you frickin’ deserve to be a soul stone.



Oh, I dunno…maybe use the Enchantment abilities of the Vampire form to do CC on the people who spam light spells so they can’t spam them? Unless you want to use it multi-class, in which case my suggestion is to not use Vampire form…



It is clear you want to modify PM so that it is your ideal multi-class build, which is a really dumb idea.

A PM on its own is an EASY PrE to play. And when you hit Wraith and Lich, you’re almost god-like with power. With the right gear, virtually nothing can crit you, and you can deal devastating amounts of damage to a lot of mobs. Changing this would only make it more powerful at lower levels, and unbalance the class entirely.

All i can hear from you is: dont multiclass if you do not want to take at least 12 wiz for Wraith.
Which is nutz because the Devs said they want build disparity, which you do not get when the first 2 forms available are useless.
And the tip about using enchantment for CC is ridicules for Multiclassing, because you will not have the spells or the DC to CC anything in any content that matters.

[Daemoneyes]

Most GMs I have seen don't do high magic very well. They make it easily available to the players and then just run the npcs the same as if it was a normal or low magic game. The players tend to balance them selves out in their decision making if they realize that everything they do, the NPCs can do too. If it is done right it can be alot of fun. Appreciation for all the magic stuff isn't as important though, part of the setting is that it is common place, so it is supposed to be that way.

true but that always means much more work for the GM
and since we all dont have as much time for it as we would like to we usually take the easy way and keep it simple.
which means, less fancy stuff but since the new Pc games throw at us so much ridicules stuff we are happy to play something different in pen&paper

I too, and the gms I play with, keep their NPCs with just the knowledge they should have. I wouldn't instantly give everyone around the new vampire a holy symbol. Instead I use reputation-ish stuff. Eventually word gets out that there is a vampire around. Clerics or vampire hunters come to take care of the problem and they arm the poor hapless commoners with the things they can to protect themselves, like holy symbols. My players were not very good at keeping their presence a secret, so it never took more than a week game time for said word to get out.

I am usually the one with a low profile, or at least all other players we have tend to draw so much attention that i do not ^^
Which tends to be a problem when we play Shadowrun but its always fun.

One of the biggest downsides my players found to playing a vampire was the need to return to their grave each morning, or if they ever got forced into gaseous form. Not just any old coffin or grave would do, it had to be their coffin or grave. That severely reduced the area they could operate in, and the group really liked to be abroad.

We try to stick together and usually do not stray far from our caravan.
Which yes is not so great sometimes but has reduced our deaths greatly ^^

The two most successful undead characters I ever saw was the ghost paladin that I mentioned earlier, He just got OP. The other was a mummy who passed himself off as a leper. He wasn't very popular, but the roleplaying was awesome and he managed some things you wouldn't believe. But as I said, any time I ever saw a player try to be a vampire, it never went well for him, even if I wasn't the GM.

mummy leper lol
dont remember the rules for ghost but yes some things can be really op
got to say its often the problem that players try to play their char the wrong way and then they never life long.

we had 2 Lich other then that only my Vampire as Undead Chars. (not at the same time, was our evil group)
Other than that we had mostly outsider chars and a few Beast race chars.

In our "holier than thou" campaign we had a Lich (elven lore keeper) which did lead to a lot of trouble with all the paladins and clerics that wanted to kill her, often did cost us half the playing time to rescue her from the mob/clerics ^^

[Havok.cry]

got to say its often the problem that players try to play their char the wrong way and then they never life long.

QFT (Not to tell someone how to play their character or anything, but really there is a stupid way to play the hand you are dealt and a smart way)

we had 2 Lich other then that only my Vampire as Undead Chars. (not at the same time, was our evil group)
Other than that we had mostly outsider chars and a few Beast race chars.

None of my players ever went for beast races. Outsiders come with their own problems lol. At the first banishment the players mutually decided they were going to turn the game into "Lost in Space: DnD edition" That game was a lot of fun.

In our "holier than thou" campaign we had a Lich (elven lore keeper) which did lead to a lot of trouble with all the paladins and clerics that wanted to kill her, often did cost us half the playing time to rescue her from the mob/clerics ^^

Suprisingly none of my players ever tried to become a lich. They were way to paranoid about the phylactry thing. I never had a chance to actually play one either, but I had a plan to store my phylactry in extra-dimensional spaces that only I could access. Outside of divine intervention, I would have been effectively eternal. I was also going to start my own demi-plane, but the game ended before I could achieve either of those goals lol.

[Havok.cry]

Whatever.

I can be a PM without having to buy the WF race. And if I go elf I get all sorts of spell pen advantages. I dispute your assessment.

He said it was a stronger choice, not neccesarily a better choice. Better is based on opinion, stronger is based on numbers. For someone who does not want to spend anything to get warforged, anything else is better. In that situation though, anything else is not stronger. A shiradri WF AM will blow a elven PM out of the water any day.

The auras do insignificant damage to all the stuff around you. Yes it is damage, but it is not enough to matter, and guess what... an AM can put those auras up to, just like an AM can cast necromancy spells still, so claiming that as some kind of advantage is wrong. Claim as an advantage something that PM can do that AM can not do, instead of something an AM can also do.

That being said, why aren't people just using both trees? You can be an Archmagepalemaster instead of an Archmage or a Palemaster.

[Daemoneyes]

Whatever.

I can be a PM without having to buy the WF race. And if I go elf I get all sorts of spell pen advantages. I dispute your assessment.





I don’t have to quicken it.

It does damage to virtually all mobs.

Yeah, it matters “in fight.”

lol yeah totally matters to do low damage ticks that are slowly ticking away at mobs with several Thousands of Hp.
not that the mobs would be in range of the aura anyway..

Ummm…no they are not. It damages most mobs out there.

that would be true if there wouldnt be standing on every corner and mob group a priest or fvs or whatever that casts DW.
Or if there wouldnt be mobs with freaking blanket immunity's.

Don’t need to if I’m using auras.

And I’m doing damage to the enemy by just standing there.

All you are, while standing around is dead. Because mobs in EE hit for way more than you can heal.
Even in EH there are several quests where neg. healing will not be enough with your glorified "just standing around" tactic :P

You’re obviously not doing it right if you are not seeing the same things I am.

I’m not putting down a WF AM. But you’re high if you think that PMs have crappy self-heals.

And you seem to do something wrong if you cant do way better with other classes than a PM.

They’re only useless to you. And they are useless because you obviously have no clue as to running a PM.

To sit there and say that the most mobs are immune to death auras is, frankly, dumb. At best you’re talking about constructs and undead.

It works on devils.

It works on demons.

It works on elves, human, gnolls, rats, dogs, mephitis, elementals, will-o-whisps, bats, lions, rust monsters, trogs, trolls, giants, dwarves, teiflings…all sorts of living, non-constructs. Cripes, it even works on some constructs.

Then don’t use Vampire form. It is really that simple. Mainly because Enchantment is what Vampire form is meant to increase. If it was made to be attractive to a melee-splash, then it would appear in a melee tree, and not in an arcane PrE. Period.

Here take a Tampon, because you seem to be bloody ......

But don’t sit there and say that PM sucks because it doesn’t work like you want it to. There are LOTS of melee toons that splash PM, and they do so for the clear benefits of Wraith form. You’re trying to use a form to do something it was NEVER meant to do, and crying about it. Here’s a suggestion: try using something else. Don’t modify the class because it doesn’t work the way you want it to in your narrow little niche design.

12 freaking lvl of a class is not a SPLASH...

[Daemoneyes]

He said it was a stronger choice, not neccesarily a better choice. Better is based on opinion, stronger is based on numbers. For someone who does not want to spend anything to get warforged, anything else is better. In that situation though, anything else is not stronger. A shiradri WF AM will blow a elven PM out of the water any day.

The auras do insignificant damage to all the stuff around you. Yes it is damage, but it is not enough to matter, and guess what... an AM can put those auras up to, just like an AM can cast necromancy spells still, so claiming that as some kind of advantage is wrong. Claim as an advantage something that PM can do that AM can not do, instead of something an AM can also do.

That being said, why aren't people just using both trees? You can be an Archmagepalemaster instead of an Archmage or a Palemaster.

Most are using both now, at least DC caster.
But with the new content i dont see much use in DC casting if you plan to play EE.
All that debuffing you need to do without perfect equip is just to much hassle when you can blast away endlessly as Shirady without wasting time on debuffs.

About to TR my pure PM into a survival shirady along the line of 2fvs/2rogue/16wiz, i am still not sure if i want to go for insta trapfinding or WF.

[bsquishwizzy]

lol yeah totally matters to do low damage ticks that are slowly ticking away at mobs with several Thousands of Hp.
not that the mobs would be in range of the aura anyway..

A couple of DoTs and they find you very quickly.

Again, you obviously have no clue as to how to run a PM.

that would be true if there wouldnt be standing on every corner and mob group a priest or fvs or whatever that casts DW.
Or if there wouldnt be mobs with freaking blanket immunity's.

Ummmm…uh…what?

Some 75% of mobs take damage from auras. If I recall correctly, even some undead takes damage from my aura. And this is your response?

At best you’re talking about Priestesses in MotU. If you can’t take one of them out without dying as a PM, maybe you need to learn the class a little better.

All you are, while standing around is dead. Because mobs in EE hit for way more than you can heal.
Even in EH there are several quests where neg. healing will not be enough with your glorified "just standing around" tactic :P

Then I think the solution is to not sit there and let mobs wail on you. Duh.

I’ve run EEs before. And I’ve see WF AMs go down hard with their glorious, wonderful self-healing that is so much better than mine. Your point being?

Oh yeah, and not everyone runs EE…or wants to run EE all the time…and such. At early levels, Zombie and Vampire forms do wonders for a PM, which is what they are specifically designed to do, and not as a potential splash for a monk (which is about as idiotic a concept as I have ever heard). At that level, it is VERY appropriate to turtle-up, cast auras, and drop Wall of Fire. Those forms were NEVER meant to be used in EE settings, like you want them to.

Plus, your love of reconstructs will have you out of SP long before a shrine on EE. So you’re either compensating with pots, or you don’t know what you’re talking about.

And you seem to do something wrong if you cant do way better with other classes than a PM.

I do play other classes other than a PM. I’ve even played a fleshy AM in EEs (gasp!).

Again, you want to bastardize PM forms because they don’t want to work the way YOU want them to. That’s a flaw in your thinking, and not a problem with the PrE.

Here take a Tampon, because you seem to be bloody ......

You’re the one whining because you can’t make Zombie form work on a monk.

I mean, how utterly idiotic is that concept?

12 freaking lvl of a class is not a SPLASH...

Then try something else.

Or work around the deficits of the form.

But don’t sit there and whine about PM forms for other classes when they are designed for an arcane class, and not for everybody else.

Seriously, just how hard is it to grasp this concept?

[bsquishwizzy]

He said it was a stronger choice, not neccesarily a better choice. Better is based on opinion, stronger is based on numbers. For someone who does not want to spend anything to get warforged, anything else is better. In that situation though, anything else is not stronger. A shiradri WF AM will blow a elven PM out of the water any day.

The auras do insignificant damage to all the stuff around you. Yes it is damage, but it is not enough to matter, and guess what... an AM can put those auras up to, just like an AM can cast necromancy spells still, so claiming that as some kind of advantage is wrong. Claim as an advantage something that PM can do that AM can not do, instead of something an AM can also do.

That being said, why aren't people just using both trees? You can be an Archmagepalemaster instead of an Archmage or a Palemaster.

Honestly, I could care less about whether the WF AM is stronger than a fleshy PM in self-healing. To me it comes down to a matter of preference.

And I'm not disputing that auras d insignificant damage...the fact is they DO inflict damage on mobs that are in range. The point was that for the same spell you get healing and damage all in one. This is nice in straight-ahead quests where there is lots of fighting, and it is a bit of a problem when you are trying to be stealthy (because doing damage to a mob while you are sneaking around is kinda counterproductive). But if used properly, it can be very effective. Dismissing it, however, is just flat-out ignorance.

My issue isn't with self-healing - which my detractor quickly jumped upon to show just what an "uber" player he is - it is with taking an already powerful class, and making it way too powerful. "Fixing" Zombie and Vampire forms has the potential to do that. He (she?) wants Zombie and Vampire forms - with all of their advantages - changed so they are work fluidly with melee toons so that they can have all of these benefits with very little investment into the PM tree. I mean a zombie is a zombie, is a zombie: they shamble and they are slow. Why you would leave the movement speed slow and make the attack speed normal seems dumb. That's not a zombie then...it is a mage with a club foot.

But instead of addressing that, he / she decided to thump their chest about how groovy their WF AM was, and how PMs suck. Ok, whatever. Don't really care, but to dismiss a PM's obvious advantages in a lot of different areas is kinda ignorant. They are a class that is not only east to play, but very piowerful (almost to the point of being OP). And now someone wants to come along and make them even more powerful for the sake of some Monk hybrid they want to build.

Utterly dumb.

Hence I'm calling it for what it is.