Hassan's Assassin

[Hobgoblin]

just as a note - with harper tree out, would you now say that almost any race is viable? Since you put very little into racial trees

hob

[CThruTheEgo]

just as a note - with harper tree out, would you now say that almost any race is viable? Since you put very little into racial trees

hob

I didn't spend much in the racial tree before harper, so that's no different. Harper has, however, changed the reasons for choosing a race. Because you don't have much to spend on the racial tree, the biggest benefit of a race is what it inherently offers (e.g. extra feat, higher starting stats, etc.) and not its enhancements. You can still spend a lot on the racial tree but what is gained does not outweigh what is sacrificed imo.

I will say the extra feat from human is worth a lot less now than it used to be. Weapon finesse is no longer needed, and neither is dodge. Human still offers the best burst dps through damage boost, which unlocks the racial int, and the extra feat can be spent on past life rogue sneak of shadows for more burst dps. Human is also the best option for a completionist that still takes epic toughness. Personally I like drow the best now, but I don't have time to TR into one atm.

[Emizand]

Drow Variant:
With the introduction of +6 stat tomes, drow have a much easier time reaching the 21 base dex and con to qualify for improved sneak attack and epic toughness. The only thing that is lost is the burst dps that human gets from human damage boost and past life sneak of shadows. Final HP comes out exactly the same as the human version. Drow comes out 1 DC ahead. I would build a drow assassin as follows and may even TR into this build if I ever get around to it.

starting stats: 32 point build
str 8
dex 16
con 14
int 20
wis 8
cha 10
This setup requires a +6 con tome and a +5 dex tome. All level ups into int except for the level 24 point which goes into con.

When I went to school 14 + 6 = 20, Epic Toughness requires 21. Am I missing something?

Emi

[Garix]

When I went to school 14 + 6 = 20, Epic Toughness requires 21. Am I missing something?

Emi

Yes. The very last sentence

[Emizand]

Yes. The very last sentence

So its an error?

Was so hoping I was missing something.

Thanks Garix.

[Garix]

So its an error?

Was so hoping I was missing something.

Thanks Garix.

Think you may of misunderstood me , I was referring to

"All level ups into int except for the level 24 point which goes into con."

That extra point puts it to the 21 required.

Hopefully that clears it up a little

[CThruTheEgo]

When I went to school 14 + 6 = 20, Epic Toughness requires 21. Am I missing something?

Emi

Garix is correct. You'd put 1 level up point into con, so it's 14 + 6 + 1 = 21, thus qualifying for epic toughness. Using the level up point at level 24 means you can keep your int maxed throughout heroics for max skill points, not that you'd be short on skill points anyway, heh.

[Emizand]

Thanks guys

[Calaquende]

Disable Device:
23 base
8 epic
3 tome
2 skill mastery x2
29 int68
20 item
6 exc int skills belt
2 good luck
1 elite spider cult mask
3 danger room ship buff
4 GH
5 enhancement (Ventilated Armbands swap)
7 tools
113 TOTAL

For the int skills (like disable, above) I see that you're swapping in a "6 exc int skills belt". Is this a hassle since you've got your Con item on the belt? Do you find that you have to heal missing HP after swapping it out and then back in?

[Hobgoblin]

For the int skills (like disable, above) I see that you're swapping in a "6 exc int skills belt". Is this a hassle since you've got your Con item on the belt? Do you find that you have to heal missing HP after swapping it out and then back in?

does not work that way with con -unless you are low on health when you switch ie 6*20=120 which you lose immediately from both current and total hp. then you put it on and you get that 120 back.

Note - this is not how it works with life items u do have to heal that back.

hob

[CThruTheEgo]

For the int skills (like disable, above) I see that you're swapping in a "6 exc int skills belt". Is this a hassle since you've got your Con item on the belt? Do you find that you have to heal missing HP after swapping it out and then back in?

Hob is correct. You gain back the hp when you swap a con item.

The belt is the EE Skullduggery Kit (the EH version also has +6 exc int skills but only +4 exc dex skills). I don't swap it in all the time because it's just not necessary (but it is fun to get critical successes on EE ). I definitely don't swap anything that's going to drop my hp when I'm disabling in the middle of combat. I keep that in the calcs to show the numbers achievable. You can also get +6 exc int skills from the Manual of Stealthy Pilfering. It has +3 good luck also, so even though you lose 2 int from swapping Epic Litany, you still end up with the same final number.

[Calaquende]

Hob is correct. You gain back the hp when you swap a con item.

The belt is the EE Skullduggery Kit (the EH version also has +6 exc int skills but only +4 exc dex skills). I don't swap it in all the time because it's just not necessary (but it is fun to get critical successes on EE ). I definitely don't swap anything that's going to drop my hp when I'm disabling in the middle of combat. I keep that in the calcs to show the numbers achievable. You can also get +6 exc int skills from the Manual of Stealthy Pilfering. It has +3 good luck also, so even though you lose 2 int from swapping Epic Litany, you still end up with the same final number.

Thank you for the clarification. I'm continuing to plug along towards this goal. I don't yet have the Thoughtful Rememberance belt (lost twice on rolls) but I'm sure I'll get it soon. When that happens, I was thinking of plugging in the "blue OR yellow slotted con2" that you have in the bracers as well as the "green slotted HP40" that you have in the goggles. Not sure why, but I'm a bit AR and would like to keep all the HP in one place. I'm not sure if I'd have to heal the HP40 if I swap, but even if I do that's no biggie. Or maybe I'll stick in the good luck +2 since the belt is also going to be my resistance item.

[CThruTheEgo]

When that happens, I was thinking of plugging in the "blue OR yellow slotted con2" that you have in the bracers as well as the "green slotted HP40" that you have in the goggles.

It doesn't matter too much where you slot things tbh. You do want to try to be aware of what items you swap and what you'll lose by doing so, but sometimes there's swaps you don't think of. I'm actually going to move the hp and vitality out of the goggles because if I do the goggles in Mark of Death, then it drops my hp a bit.

Not sure why, but I'm a bit AR and would like to keep all the HP in one place.

I also prefer to keep the same effects in the same slot, but one advantage of having them spread out is if you do have to swap that item for some reason, you don't lose the entire effect that you have on it.

I'm not sure if I'd have to heal the HP40 if I swap, but even if I do that's no biggie.

You do have to heal the hp40 if you swap that out, I believe vitality also iirc. It's just the hp granted from con that doesn't have to be recovered.

[dualscissors]

Thanks for this thread. It was very helpful figuring things out over the months I've played ddo.

How strongly (and why) would you recommend against building in the cleave chain instead of Toughness/Epic Toughness?

I definitely see the virtue of an extra 80HPs on a HP starved class build (880 HPs vs. ~800HP). That said, 2! feats for a moderate 80HPs feels expensive. Secondly, a little DPS improvement with Power Attack when Precision isn't relevant is a modest perk.

But mainly I'm curious because I've enjoyed having 2x AoE attacks that interrupt the attack sequence, esp. when cleave/great cleave can proc status effects on pesky mob groups. Having only a single target DPS when soloing EH or easier EE quests I find to be a nuissance.

Thanks

[CThruTheEgo]

How strongly (and why) would you recommend against building in the cleave chain instead of Toughness/Epic Toughness?

I don't like AoE attacks on an assassin. Assassins are all about managing agro. You can't assassinate anything if you've got 4 mobs coming after you all at once. And if you're not assassinating, you're better off with a different build.

Getting power attack requires investing in str, which is otherwise a dump stat for assassins nowadays. Since you're dropping epic toughness anyway, you'd be lowering con (so you can keep improved sneak attack and max int) to invest in str. So you're losing at least 2 con to do that, for a total minimum loss of 108 hp from -2 con, toughness, and epic toughness. Lower hp and AoE attacks that attract agro seem like a bad combination imo.

I definitely see the virtue of an extra 80HPs on a HP starved class build (880 HPs vs. ~800HP). That said, 2! feats for a moderate 80HPs feels expensive.

With 800 base hp, 80 more hp is a 10% increase. That's not bad at all. Plus, because you have to lower con to fit power attack, you're actually looking at a comparison of 772 hp vs 880 hp, which is a 14% increase in hp.

Having only a single target DPS when soloing EH or easier EE quests I find to be a nuissance.

I find soloing mind-numbingly boring, so this aspect doesn't concern me personally. IMO though, if you really want an AoE attack to deal with groups of mobs, you'd be much better off investing in spellcraft (plenty of skill points to go around, and spellcraft is an int based skill), slotting an elemental spell power item/augment, and twisting energy burst. On an int based assassin, there would be some decent synergy there.

You can also go nokowi's route and invest in improved traps from the mechanic tree. You can get 100+DC web traps with this. Once you've got em webbed, scroll sleet storm (make sure you have a FoM item equipped) to blind them all (guarantees sneak attack damage, can also use glitterdust traps for the same effect), and start tearing them down with melee.

[dualscissors]

I don't like AoE attacks on an assassin. Assassins are all about managing agro. You can't assassinate anything if you've got 4 mobs coming after you all at once. And if you're not assassinating, you're better off with a different build.

Getting power attack requires investing in str, which is otherwise a dump stat for assassins nowadays. Since you're dropping epic toughness anyway, you'd be lowering con (so you can keep improved sneak attack and max int) to invest in str. So you're losing at least 2 con to do that, for a total minimum loss of 108 hp from -2 con, toughness, and epic toughness. Lower hp and AoE attacks that attract agro seem like a bad combination imo.



With 800 base hp, 80 more hp is a 10% increase. That's not bad at all. Plus, because you have to lower con to fit power attack, you're actually looking at a comparison of 772 hp vs 880 hp, which is a 14% increase in hp.



I find soloing mind-numbingly boring, so this aspect doesn't concern me personally. IMO though, if you really want an AoE attack to deal with groups of mobs, you'd be much better off investing in spellcraft (plenty of skill points to go around, and spellcraft is an int based skill), slotting an elemental spell power item/augment, and twisting energy burst. On an int based assassin, there would be some decent synergy there.

You can also go nokowi's route and invest in improved traps from the mechanic tree. You can get 100+DC web traps with this. Once you've got em webbed, scroll sleet storm (make sure you have a FoM item equipped) to blind them all (guarantees sneak attack damage, can also use glitterdust traps for the same effect), and start tearing them down with melee.

I definitely am losing out on the 30+50 HPs. I build CON at 15 and put 1 build point in to make up for the CON 16. This would shortchange INT if the planned total wasn't coming out to an even number already without using that 7th leveling ability point (Base 18 + Leveling 6 + Tome 6 + Enchancements 7 + Items 11+3+1 + Ship 2 + Destiny 6 + Profane 2 + Cap 2 = 64).

Agro is definitely something that has to be carefully monitored where you have a chance to restealth for follow up assassinates. In grouping I notice that Cleave-ing in a pile of other players and mobs sometimes pulls agro, often doesn't - e.g. a wiz/sorc is spamming ridiculous damage; a dreadnaught is also Cleaving for enough damage to make a lot of hate for himself; or in a pile-up where the mob dies before it considers chasing me.

In soloing I have the agro anyway, so the argument would be that Cleave/Great Cleave-ing 2-5 mobs chops them down faster than not having those 2 extra AoEs every 6 seconds.

My main concern is that as I take on more of the top-tier EE (in groups) if those 80 extra HPs end up frequently meaning the difference between barely staying alive or seeing the death screen - since death means 0 dps. :-)

[Calaquende]

I continue to use this excellent guide, but I wanted to get your feedback on an equipment swap. I've decided to go with Epic Boots of the Innocent for the Speed XV (+15% to melee attack speed) and permanent GH. I suppose you could use pots and scrolls for the same effect, but it's nice to have them there all the time, especially the GH. I then moved my GS HP item to the cloak. (Actually, it's ConOpp and has always been there, and I don't really feel like crafting a new one, even though I have the mats.) Anyway, the big thing I end up losing is the exception seeker +5, although there's seeker XII on the ring (which I don't have, yet). Anyway, what do you think of that swap?

You can also go nokowi's route and invest in improved traps from the mechanic tree. You can get 100+DC web traps with this. Once you've got em webbed, scroll sleet storm (make sure you have a FoM item equipped) to blind them all (guarantees sneak attack damage, can also use glitterdust traps for the same effect), and start tearing them down with melee.

I checked out Nokowi's build and I don't see how he gets close to 100 DC for the web traps. The DC is 10 + spell level (=3) + Int modifier (=29) = 42. Mechanic II will get you +4 and Improved Traps will get you +3. Elemental traps use Disable Device DC, but Magical Traps (i.e. Web) do not. I suppose I could ask him, but what am I missing?

[Ayseifn]

I continue to use this excellent guide, but I wanted to get your feedback on an equipment swap. I've decided to go with Epic Boots of the Innocent for the Speed XV (+15% to melee attack speed) and permanent GH. I suppose you could use pots and scrolls for the same effect, but it's nice to have them there all the time, especially the GH. I then moved my GS HP item to the cloak. (Actually, it's ConOpp and has always been there, and I don't really feel like crafting a new one, even though I have the mats.) Anyway, the big thing I end up losing is the exception seeker +5, although there's seeker XII on the ring (which I don't have, yet). Anyway, what do you think of that swap?



I checked out Nokowi's build and I don't see how he gets close to 100 DC for the web traps. The DC is 10 + spell level (=3) + Int modifier (=29) = 42. Mechanic II will get you +4 and Improved Traps will get you +3. Elemental traps use Disable Device DC, but Magical Traps (i.e. Web) do not. I suppose I could ask him, but what am I missing?

IIRC magical traps are bugged and use the elemental traps formula.

[CThruTheEgo]

I continue to use this excellent guide, but I wanted to get your feedback on an equipment swap. I've decided to go with Epic Boots of the Innocent for the Speed XV (+15% to melee attack speed) and permanent GH. I suppose you could use pots and scrolls for the same effect, but it's nice to have them there all the time, especially the GH. I then moved my GS HP item to the cloak. (Actually, it's ConOpp and has always been there, and I don't really feel like crafting a new one, even though I have the mats.) Anyway, the big thing I end up losing is the exception seeker +5, although there's seeker XII on the ring (which I don't have, yet). Anyway, what do you think of that swap?

The Epic Ethereal Bracers have speed XIV on them, but I notice now that it is not listed in the OP. I'll change that. Losing 5 seeker with a 15-20x3 crit profile equals an average loss of 4.5 damage per hit. The difference between speed 14 and 15 is 1%. You have to be doing 450 average damage per hit (and that includes all damage – base, sneak attack, damage procs, etc.) to get 4.5 average damage per hit from that extra 1%. Anything above that and you're better off with the speed 15 than the exc seeker 5. However, anytime you have haste going (which grants speed 15), you are losing 4.5 average damage per hit from not having exc seeker 5. So the boots could be situationally better, but I also like the threat reduction on the cloak. It's a minor difference so I'd say take whichever you prefer.

I checked out Nokowi's build and I don't see how he gets close to 100 DC for the web traps. The DC is 10 + spell level (=3) + Int modifier (=29) = 42. Mechanic II will get you +4 and Improved Traps will get you +3. Elemental traps use Disable Device DC, but Magical Traps (i.e. Web) do not. I suppose I could ask him, but what am I missing?

That wiki page is horribly outdated. It's still talking about mechanic I and II from the old enhancement system. What nokowi determined through testing is that magical traps also use the disable device score, and more of it with the improved traps enhancement from the mechanic tree. I don't think we have enough info to know if this is WAI or not so I think it's too soon to say it's bugged.

[Calaquende]

The Epic Ethereal Bracers have speed XIV on them, but I notice now that it is not listed in the OP. I'll change that. Losing 5 seeker with a 15-20x3 crit profile equals an average loss of 4.5 damage per hit. The difference between speed 14 and 15 is 1%. You have to be doing 450 average damage per hit (and that includes all damage – base, sneak attack, damage procs, etc.) to get 4.5 average damage per hit from that extra 1%. Anything above that and you're better off with the speed 15 than the exc seeker 5. However, anytime you have haste going (which grants speed 15), you are losing 4.5 average damage per hit from not having exc seeker 5. So the boots could be situationally better, but I also like the threat reduction on the cloak. It's a minor difference so I'd say take whichever you prefer.

Again, this is great feedback. I believe that your mix of equipment is, in fact, the best. As it stands, however, I don't have the Shroud of Ardent, which means that I have on Dumathoin's Bracers as opposed to the Epic Ethereal Bracers (for the elemental resist and sheltering). Also, I have the Iron Mitts as opposed to the Epic Fanged Gloves (healing amp is super-important). That means that I need to put Int somewhere, so I've got the Epic Eye of the Beholder on as opposed to the Seal of House Avithoul. Now I've lost sneak attack, but since I don't have the Intricate Field Options I've put on Tharne's Goggles. This works well since I have the Epic Litany of the Dead which replaced the Epic Treasure Hunter's Spyglass, which means that I lost True Seeing, but that's also on Tharne's Goggles. Yay! However, I now lost Insight. Int +3. Until I get the Intricate Field Optics (which I hear is a terrible unbelievable grind) I'll just try to slide in a +2 augment. Complicated!!

I've been working on this gear for quite some time and I'm still missing some stuff, but as it stands I'm only missing seeker 12 & the exceptional seeker, double strike +9%, riposte 9 and threat reduction. That's a decent chunk of lost DPS but a) I'm still a freaking killing machine and b) less DPS means less need for threat reduction! My Assassinate DC is 68, which is already pretty amazing.

That wiki page is horribly outdated. It's still talking about mechanic I and II from the old enhancement system. What nokowi determined through testing is that magical traps also use the disable device score, and more of it with the improved traps enhancement from the mechanic tree. I don't think we have enough info to know if this is WAI or not so I think it's too soon to say it's bugged.

I've always thought that traps were terrible useless. I once played a Mechanic II in permadeath and the traps were a waste. If web traps actually used the disable skill, that would be neat. I'm going to give it a try and report back.