TWF feats now work with Wolf and Bear forms, is this wai?

[Charononus]

Even on a STR-based wolf build, I'd probably still want to spend at least 15 APs in Season's Herald: 1st 3 core enhs, Beguile, Produce Flame + Creeping Cold SLAs (no save on either), Wax & Wane x3. That said, it sucks that NW provides zero Spellpower; I know it's meant to be the "melee DPS" (ha!) tree, but c'mon, it oughta be worth, say, 0.5 Spellpower per AP.

Beguile is a maybe imo since it doesn't work on red names now. Produce flame though will probably do less dps than meleeing for that time frame since a melee build isn't going to have the spwr or meta's boosting it's damage. Same with creeping cold but now you've shut off an arcane in the party from being able to use niac's biting cold for damage.

[Havok.cry]

Even on a STR-based wolf build, I'd probably still want to spend at least 15 APs in Season's Herald: 1st 3 core enhs, Beguile, Produce Flame + Creeping Cold SLAs (no save on either), Wax & Wane x3. That said, it sucks that NW provides zero Spellpower; I know it's meant to be the "melee DPS" (ha!) tree, but c'mon, it oughta be worth, say, 0.5 Spellpower per AP.

I find it worthwhile to get all the way to spring's resurgence in seasons herald, at least for the early levels... not sure about later, but at 9 now and it is all the heals I need soloing elites. Have done every quest I can get BB on and it has kept me up (and my wolf). I don't even prep cure or vigor spells unless I am joining a party looking for a healer.

[Havok.cry]

Beguile is a maybe imo since it doesn't work on red names now. Produce flame though will probably do less dps than meleeing for that time frame since a melee build isn't going to have the spwr or meta's boosting it's damage. Same with creeping cold but now you've shut off an arcane in the party from being able to use niac's biting cold for damage.

The creeping cold sla can be used on trash and allows you to then forget they exist because they will die in a moment. It does this for 4 sp. You have better things to do to a boss, and you can let the arcanes have their fun.

[Charononus]

The creeping cold sla can be used on trash and allows you to then forget they exist because they will die in a moment. It does this for 4 sp. You have better things to do to a boss, and you can let the arcanes have their fun.

Deals on-going cold damage to the target every 2 seconds for 12 seconds. The damage starts small, and grows larger as the spell continues. Each phase lasts 4 seconds. First phase: 1d4 damage +2 per 3 caster levels (max +12 at caster level 18). Second phase: 2d4 damage +4 per 3 caster levels (max +24 at caster level 18). Third Phase: 3d4 damage +6 per 3 caster levels (max +36 at caster level 18).

so assuming pure and that 15 pts for 15 spwr

first phase
4+12=16*1.15=18.4 so a total damage of 36 damage first phase
8+24=32*1.15=36.8 so say 37 for a total of 74 damage for the second phase
12+36=48*1.15=55.2 so a total damage of 110 for the second phase

That 4 sp got you 220 dmg. When mobs have 7k + hp they tell you that that tickles. My undergeared wolf build that is very weak still is getting 60-70 dmg on a non crit and about 1 hit per sec with 24% doublestrike at the moment. Assuming no double strikes and an average of 65 per hit I'd be doing 780. Yeah it only takes a second or two to cast it but it doesn't hit hard enough to really be worth it imo.

[Havok.cry]

Deals on-going cold damage to the target every 2 seconds for 12 seconds. The damage starts small, and grows larger as the spell continues. Each phase lasts 4 seconds. First phase: 1d4 damage +2 per 3 caster levels (max +12 at caster level 18). Second phase: 2d4 damage +4 per 3 caster levels (max +24 at caster level 18). Third Phase: 3d4 damage +6 per 3 caster levels (max +36 at caster level 18).

so assuming pure and that 15 pts for 15 spwr

first phase
4+12=16*1.15=18.4 so a total damage of 36 damage first phase
8+24=32*1.15=36.8 so say 37 for a total of 74 damage for the second phase
12+36=48*1.15=55.2 so a total damage of 110 for the second phase

That 4 sp got you 220 dmg. When mobs have 7k + hp they tell you that that tickles. My undergeared wolf build that is very weak still is getting 60-70 dmg on a non crit and about 1 hit per sec with 24% doublestrike at the moment. Assuming no double strikes and an average of 65 per hit I'd be doing 780. Yeah it only takes a second or two to cast it but it doesn't hit hard enough to really be worth it imo.

If you are trying to have a level 2 spell sla be relevant in EE content, then I have no advice for you at all. It is, however, a better use of sp than putting niacs/eladars on the same trash. My point was against some targets it is not a waste, and it shouldn't interfere with arcanes then, because any arcane who is trying their dots on trash, at full meta'd cost, is out of their mind. Also your math is not accounting for spellpower items (easy to slot in a augment gem), nor metamagics, which even wolves should take or they are deliberately gimping themselves (my opinion, but one I am fairly certain numbers back up).

[Missing_Minds]

I've heard they upped bear animations for the capstone, which still sucks as a pure build loses so much compared to even a 2 monk splash that there is no reason to stay pure and even with the new capstone it won't make up enough for staying pure.

I've heard that also. I'll be at work for the next several days (as it were)

So my guess is that it wont' stack with haste just like wolf form doesn't stack with striding/speed.

Aka utterly pointless as it offers players NOTHING.

[Charononus]

If you are trying to have a level 2 spell sla be relevant in EE content, then I have no advice for you at all. It is, however, a better use of sp than putting niacs/eladars on the same trash. My point was against some targets it is not a waste, and it shouldn't interfere with arcanes then, because any arcane who is trying their dots on trash, at full meta'd cost, is out of their mind. Also your math is not accounting for spellpower items (easy to slot in a augment gem), nor metamagics, which even wolves should take or they are deliberately gimping themselves (my opinion, but one I am fairly certain numbers back up).

most wraps (yes all animal form druids should be using wraps for die step reasons) only have 1 red slot if they have any and in that one slot you should have devotion to help heal yourself imo.

In any case when theory building unless you are planing and stating it's for a 1-20 life planing for the top level of play is probably best.

[Havok.cry]

most wraps (yes all animal form druids should be using wraps for die step reasons) only have 1 red slot if they have any and in that one slot you should have devotion to help heal yourself imo.

In any case when theory building unless you are planing and stating it's for a 1-20 life planing for the top level of play is probably best.

There are other places you can get devotion. I understand the need to plan for the end. My comment about using creeping cold as a fire and forget thing to kill a mob by itself was not really for that, and I didn't really think about that before I posted it. Creeping cold is good though. It is absolutely worth the 15 AP spent in tree to get, even on a melee build. This is of course my opinion, and my definition of a melee druid build includes maximize and empower. If yours does not, then it may be worth considerably less.

[Charononus]

There are other places you can get devotion. I understand the need to plan for the end. My comment about using creeping cold as a fire and forget thing to kill a mob by itself was not really for that, and I didn't really think about that before I posted it. Creeping cold is good though. It is absolutely worth the 15 AP spent in tree to get, even on a melee build. This is of course my opinion, and my definition of a melee druid build includes maximize and empower. If yours does not, then it may be worth considerably less.

quicken and empower healing only.

[Diyon]

Ok, for one thing look at the recent changes today. My wolf druid just got from the changes: 3 AC, 10 PRR, 65 positive spell power, +6 Base damage, +1 STR, +1 DEX, +1 CON, +2 Bluff, +2 intimidate.

That aside, my melee wolf druid (pure build) is easily my best character right now and they have all lvl ups in WIS. I can solo some epic elites with it, epic hard is generally a cake walk. Me and guildy went and duo'd the Druid's Deep chain on EE today. I have 80+ AC, 80 PRR, 8d6+13 sneak attack, and 50% doublestrike without using doublestrike boost or celerity. I gather up large groups of monsters and systematically destroy them. Since this update, I have 297 positive spell power not including maximize (a little more if summer kicks in). This is easily the hardest of my characters to kill.

The only reason I can think of as to why all of you are thinking melee animal form is junk is that you are either doing it wrong, or have been watching others do it wrong.

(btw someone said use wraps because of the die step. This is not true, you get that regardless of weapon in animal form. Pretty much anything that affects unarmed affects animal form attacks, from reinforced fists, using stunning fist, and tod burst rings. I use a holy burst ring. So use kamas or shortswords and use the offhand slot for more stats like seeker or stunning or whatever. **Another edit** unless you are not a monk, in which case use a shield.)

[Faeeee]

(btw someone said use wraps because of the die step. This is not true, you get that regardless of weapon in animal form.

I highly doubt it. Yes stunning fist and tod rings works in animal form even when you're not using wraps, but damage dice increase should only work with wraps. My druid has constantly and very noticeably higher base damage using wraps than using kamas, even though I do swap them around depending on situations.

[GeoffWatson]

The druid's animal form has feats that are meant to compensate for the lack of Two Weapon Fighting support. The change which allows Two Weapon Fighting feats to apply to animal form attacks is not working as intended, and is under investigation. It's too early to say when or if it will change, but you can officially designate this as "not working as intended." Thanks!

Pity. They make melee druids decent. The Natural Fighting feat is terrible.

Geoff.

[IBCrabin]

With TWF working in animal form while holding a shield, A Druid animal form with perfect twf is capable of hitting up to 4 times (100% main hand + 80% off hand + 50% double strike with shield and twist +10% off hand double strike) with 1 attack regularly.

Proposed change is to fixed twf and change natural fighting feats

20-25% incremental at

20% 6 druid Level (Natural fighting)
20% 9 Druid Level (Improved Natural fighting)
25% 12 druid Level (Greater Natural fighting)

Add a 15% double strike for epic destiny feat. pre req (Greater Natural fighting)
Total of 80% double strike at level 26.

Change celerity to 2% double strike stacking 5 times on vorpal and lose 1 stack every 10 second.
For a possible 90% double strike from passive enhancement and feats.

This will make for a more unique druid class and create flexibility for other class splashes.

To encourage deeper druid level build, add
given feat at 15 Druid Level
bear form - 15% attack speed (stacking) +2 damage
wolf form - 10 prr +1 damage

[Tilomere]

With TWF working in animal form while holding a shield, A Druid animal form with perfect twf is capable of hitting up to 4 times (100% main hand + 80% off hand + 50% double strike with shield and twist +10% off hand double strike) with 1 attack regularly.

Technically the shield is equipped but you are not holding it. You are fighting unarmed. This is consistent with weapons, and also consistent that even with the shield equipped, you cannot block with it.

Because it is equipped, it will uncenter you, and if it is metal it will break the druidic oath. Because you are not holding it you are ineligible for higher tier stalwart defense bonuses, but now are eligible for TWF.

[Violith]

With TWF working in animal form while holding a shield, A Druid animal form with perfect twf is capable of hitting up to 4 times (100% main hand + 80% off hand + 50% double strike with shield and twist +10% off hand double strike) with 1 attack regularly.

it was commented on recently that TWF working in animal form was NOT WAI, and to be expected it to be either fixed back to how it was, or made WAI depending on developer decisions. but for the moment it should be considered to not be WAI

[IBCrabin]

I was stating the issue with the current U19 with twf feats and proposed a solution to make druid animal more competitive with other melee builds.

[Diyon]

I highly doubt it. Yes stunning fist and tod rings works in animal form even when you're not using wraps, but damage dice increase should only work with wraps. My druid has constantly and very noticeably higher base damage using wraps than using kamas, even though I do swap them around depending on situations.

I'll concede that that may be the case but I was talking to someone earlier who said it most definitely worked. In anycase I'd like to see some testing down that definitively shows it does or doesn't with numbers.

[SerPounce]

I'll concede that that may be the case but I was talking to someone earlier who said it most definitely worked. In anycase I'd like to see some testing down that definitively shows it does or doesn't with numbers.

Testing many months back showed that weapon-based +w and monk die steps from levels only works from wraps, but other sources of +w (reinforced fists, destiny abilities, etc) worked with all weapons. It wasn't at super through 1000 iteration type test, but it was decent, and reasonable conclusive iirc. You might be able to find the thread with some searching, I don't recall the title.

Things could have changed of course, and a more complete test would be great if you felt so inclined

[Diyon]

Testing many months back showed that weapon-based +w and monk die steps from levels only works from wraps, but other sources of +w (reinforced fists, destiny abilities, etc) worked with all weapons. It wasn't at super through 1000 iteration type test, but it was decent, and reasonable conclusive iirc. You might be able to find the thread with some searching, I don't recall the title.

Things could have changed of course, and a more complete test would be great if you felt so inclined

Ah ok. Well reinforced fists working is good news. You don't really need a 1000 iteration type test. You just need to set up the character and gear so that the amount of damage you deal is predictable and clear (get rid as many extra damage procs as possible). So you know what the minimum and maximum damage is with it working and not working and see which range you fall into. Also good to double check with a control without the ability in question just to make sure your calculation of the min and max are correct.

In any case, stuff changes, it might be a good idea to revisit this.

[Panzermeyer]

The druid's animal form has feats that are meant to compensate for the lack of Two Weapon Fighting support. The change which allows Two Weapon Fighting feats to apply to animal form attacks is not working as intended, and is under investigation. It's too early to say when or if it will change, but you can officially designate this as "not working as intended." Thanks!

I have not played a druid yet.

But honestly this does seem silly.

Monks get bonus's for TWF feats using their hands.

But druids are not suppose to get bonus using the TWF for using their hands, even if their hands are claws?

That really does not make sense.

It seems you should just leave it in and change it to WAI.