Frustration Setting in, DCs and EE

[Ellihor]

Effectivity starts for me at an 85% sucess rate on the lowest save, aka if i theow a mass hold monster i want 8 to 9 out of 10 mobs beeing affected, if they have a low will save.
if i fod a caster , i want to be 85% sure he is going down, as his fort is the lowest save, archers should get a good grab from the web for they usually have low str.

That already hapens actually and my dcs are worst than yours. Its pretty rare to see a caster aving fod and low will save hold.

[Ladywolf]

Im getting really frustrated right now. After a long time of TRing i piled up 28 lifes on my main, a wizard.
I took every PL that provided any sort of bonus for my PM build to be able to cast efficiently in EE content.
All that i need right now, to max out my dc (currently at 66) is a blue helmet and the nether orb, which would be effectively 2 dcs (carrying a +4 nec focus item right now).

EH is working easily with this dc, on EE on the other hand i cant do **** with it, discos, beeing saved (+4 focus, no feats though) webs get ripped appart and landing insta death spells on anything but casters (which is also saved regulary) is rather senseless, given the fact they need several neg lvls before they work. Kiting through a SOD may help, but then again they hit like a truck, piling up to 200-400 per hit, which leaves me with my 800 hp kind of vulnable.

My overall conclusion: dcs for EE need an adjustment, or the wizard (PM) is technicly dead and useless in there.
This is what i would call a flawed and bad design, as it forces me to pick Schiradi over Magister and leaves me a mm monkey.
Next to that, the elemental dmg of wizards (PM) arent that great, compared to a possible AM/Sorc. The insanly high hps of the mobs is therefore another grain of salt in the wound. Even the SLAs, which recieved a long needed boost get totally countered by a simple deathward spell, which seems to be undispellable, even with mordekins, leaving me with the simple option to waste a lot of sp on medicore dmg or to have a time out when facing dw rednamed.

The arcane Spellsurge is helping, but a) also not always, b) 20 secs can be a rather short time, given the ammount of mobs appearing, spreading appeart, casting times and cooldowns (not to forget the 3 min cooldown on spellsurge ).

I start wondering if the last 2 dcs will make the difference, but in general im disappointed, as i hoped that high work would result into high gain.

Then again, im not counting me as a casual player, and im wondering what will they do once they get the desire to try EE and try to find the items, instead of buying them for tons of A$. If i, as a lvl28 Completionist Drow PM with a nearly maxed out gear and maxed out ED (one of the mystical 8) cant get onto them, anything more casual than me will just be a stone on in the inventory, or an afk till q is finished.

I am not voting for an IWIN and all dies button here, but im concerned this will drive a lot of players away, either killing thier fun or thier ambition to play at all. A friend of mine, currently playing a midllvl PM alreraddy stated he will drop the idea to play a wizard, as he wouldnt be able to get even close to the stuff i have. I recognize EE isnt for evryone, and its meant to be challenging, but i think right now it is over the top and needs adjusment.

For my Setup: (~800hp/3.6k sp)
Drow: max int, max con +4 tomes to all, +5 tome for int, all lvlups into Int
Featlist: Max, Emp, Hight, Quick, Mental Toughness, Imp Mental Toughness, Completionist, PL Wiz, Necrofocus I,II,III, Spellpen, gretaer Spellpen, Epic Spellpen, Insightfull ref, /Ebonus: spellpower neg, efocus spellcraft
Pastlives: each 3 times exept 1 times only: Fgt, Mnk, Paly, Rng, Rog, Bard.
Twists: Endless faith, echoes Magister, 1lvl3 slot for adjusting to current q/1 int to even out if uneven
Current gear:
Master Illusionist gloves EE, Sage's Cuffs, Boots open for adjustmnent (erock, FOM, Propulsion)
Tablecloth T2, con10 dodge 10 belt, litany, conc opp sp googs, eblue robe, torc, minII hp helm, Abbot quiver, tod ring +6int exept1 int exept 2 int, Tod ring +6 str exept 1 con exept2 con
Weapons: En nether orb +4 enchant, scepter +4 necro
Int ring gonna be swapped for 50hp ring once i get blue helm +3 int, torc will move for conc opp hp necky, bracers prob gonna be edq
Current augments: 200 sp, 35hp, impr Mental toughness, + necro focus will be swapped for 2x greater int feat.
Using Yugo pots INT

Any advice, besides cookies and store potions and having a bard at swordpoint, how to make things work for me (and evenly important for people that cant pile up what i have)?
Dev answer appreciated

I can relate with you. While not completionist I do have 3 wizard 3 sorc 3 fvs 3 cleric 1 bard. I STILL find after update 19 that on EE the toon isn't performing the way I feel it should...

[Teh_Troll]

I can relate with you. While not completionist I do have 3 wizard 3 sorc 3 fvs 3 cleric 1 bard. I STILL find after update 19 that on EE the toon isn't performing the way I feel it should...

Blue pills have helped my performance greatly.

People are still complaining about this? I was on the d00m team before U19 but with all the stat and DC inflation we have now if you can't find a way to be effective the problem exists between the keyboard and chair.

And if you're necro DC was high enough to bring back this thread you have nothing to complain about.

[patang01]

And i feel this is basicly wrong, and thats why i try to bring attention to the topic, if you invest a lot, you should gain a lot

I agree, the one who max out potential DC should also land a majority of what they're trying to do (not 99 percent, but a comfortable 80). Otherwise DPS will always reign over tactical and DC.

[Charononus]

And if you're necro DC was high enough to bring back this thread you have nothing to complain about.

Ah but forum threads have a -200 penalty to necro spells.

[maddmatt70]

I can relate with you. While not completionist I do have 3 wizard 3 sorc 3 fvs 3 cleric 1 bard. I STILL find after update 19 that on EE the toon isn't performing the way I feel it should...

Rhyes, that wizard I told you about the other day has a 67 necro dc. He was doing a good job of competing in ee stormhorns with a high dps ranged xbow/bow archer character, blitz two hander, one of the best shiradi casters in DDO, and another solid shiradi caster for kills. Do you have a 67 necro dc? In Whelon he dominates although I do not know how he compares to those characters above there.

[FURYous]

Epic - heroic; majestic; impressively great
Elite - representing the most choice or select; best

I am a FvS with a 66 necro DC right now (the same as the OP) and I have a hard time believing that he is having such an overwhelming difficult time. I am always at the top of the kill count if I don't have to heal, and the other DC casters in my guild seem to do better than me.

If you are going to name it Epic Elite, I expect to not land my spells every time, I want a challenge. So far I seem to be doing well enough that I get invited back time and time again. I have never seen anyone turn down a DC based caster that has put in the time to get his DCs to the Epic Elite level.

All in all I think my instant kills hit at least 40% of the time with no preparation at all. If I wait 7 seconds the melees will have whoo whooed it down enough that I land 85% of the time or more (that whole teamwork thing).

Are you expecting to solo EEs without using pots or something?

[count_spicoli]

Imo opinion now the pale master is back to making all content trivial again. with all the intel raises and bonuses to dc you can get running with pale masters is basically no fun at all for anyone other than pale masters. Its actually ridiculous. Did an EE madstone the other day and never got near a **** thing. the pale master just destroyed everything before you could get near it. I actually liked that fact that necros weren't auto success in ee and I have a 4th life pale master. Kind of a dumb change imo

[Teh_Troll]

Imo opinion now the pale master is back to making all content trivial again. with all the intel raises and bonuses to dc you can get running with pale masters is basically no fun at all for anyone other than pale masters. Its actually ridiculous. Did an EE madstone the other day and never got near a **** thing. the pale master just destroyed everything before you could get near it. I actually liked that fact that necros weren't auto success in ee and I have a 4th life pale master. Kind of a dumb change imo

While you are right PMs are borderline god-mode in the level 24 EEs (GH, high road) this is no longer end-game. They are NOT god-mode in the stormhorns.

[maddmatt70]

While you are right PMs are borderline god-mode in the level 24 EEs (GH, high road) this is no longer end-game. They are NOT god-mode in the stormhorns.

I think in Whelon they are close to god mode as well. I just have a wizard friend who has close to max dc or max dc word for saying that he is crushing it. So really its a whopping 5-10 quests where they are not god mode.

[Teh_Troll]

I think in Whelon they are close to god mode as well. I just have a wizard friend who has close to max dc or max dc word for saying that he is crushing it.

Yes, there are a lot of weak-save mobs in Wheloon. Stormhorns are a different ballgame.

So really its a whopping 5-10 quests where they are not god mode.

It was about the same before.

I guess this is why the bosses have 300k HP, so the melees can contribute something besides conversation.

[djl]

While you are right PMs are borderline god-mode in the level 24 EEs (GH, high road) this is no longer end-game. They are NOT god-mode in the stormhorns.

You can fairly easily get 60+ DC on necro spells, and that's on a toaster too. Combine that with the Archmage SLA enervation and you can be very effective as a PM, even in Stormhorn EEs. The biggest thing PMs have going against them atm are the slew of bugs.

Nevertheless, a 16 wiz/2 fvs/2 monk build running shiradi is more godmode than any PM. You have ridiculous saves, evasion, and nigh unlimited SP.

[kwyjibo_lol]

My completionist PM has the maximum necro dc (69 reliably) and the only place he really struggles is in EE storm horns. I've thrown crushing despair, energy drains, FoD combinations up to three times in succession to kill one Orc ranger.

Not complaining so much, it's good to have a challenge but I can imagine some people that would drive them insane.

[Andoris]

A lot of doom in this tread, but let me say that Pale Masters are very viable in EE content. You might need to use debuffs, and you are not at 95% ( but you are pretty close). But if you max out your DC's (I run 68 necro, 63 enchant) it is not as bad as folks in this tread are making things out to be.

Yes, there are a few mobs that have crazy weird high saves, but for the most part, if you play smart, and have worked to maximize your potential, you will be an invaluable member of any EE group.

[Arcanegrin]

A lot of doom in this tread, but let me say that Pale Masters are very viable in EE content. You might need to use debuffs, and you are not at 95% ( but you are pretty close). But if you max out your DC's (I run 68 necro, 63 enchant) it is not as bad as folks in this tread are making things out to be.

Yes, there are a few mobs that have crazy weird high saves, but for the most part, if you play smart, and have worked to maximize your potential, you will be an invaluable member of any EE group.

^^

With my PM currently sitting at a 65 DC I'm still not seeing much of a problem. The problem seems to be that you want a 85%+ success rate. It seems to me about hitting the cooldowns correctly and using quicken (yes SP management is a pain, sunelf helps with 5 sp clickies). Circle of death, jump in with wail, then starting using FOD etc. Enervate SLA, energy drain.

You should also be holding monsters, webbing them, and dancing things with Irresistible dance, this makes you very useful (contributing indirectly to the kill count) by itself. Looks like you could use some enchantment focuses, and a bard past life feat perhaps.

If you come on a group of 8 mobs and manage to kill 4 and hold the 4 others your pretty darn effective.

You have more necro dcs then me but I'm generally in top 3 if not number 1 for kills in EE, not only that but with most things CC'd along the way PM is a very effective member of the team even if it isn't number one in kills.

If you really want that 100% effective rate in (current) EE content, perhaps get to the 68 dc andoris has (guide in his signature), then look forward to the upcoming gear. New armor for +1 profane DC bonus. New caster stick up to +7 necro dcs for a 2 hander.

[elkorm]

Hey Errtu! weren't we together on Devourer? name's ringing a bell.
Anyhow.
Can't say getting DC casting on EE going is a stroll in the park, but it's far from impossible as it's been pictured on the forums.
I have seen a lot of good PM players on GLand from who I took insipiration...I would suggest moving away from single school and actually get Ench or Conj up to speed...Otto + Mind fog work a charm with ench > 64-65 and then you can think how to kill em (or web if you'r into it). Mass Hold for the melee (or yourself if you go into ee on draconic, which I don't) or throw a despair + circle.
You cannot expect do be at 100% on ee, but you will find out you are useful
You need to reconsider your role, some mobs needs multiple enervations/drains before you can instakill them (and I am talking about necro dc 66) while they fail their will saves against hold/disco without "help". Watch. Try stuff out. Learn. Adjust.
You might also want to read Asharam excellent guide on PM.
ahoy
Elk

[slarden]

This is a necro thread talking about necro spells.

My PM was on the bench before the enhancement pass. He is back to being one of my main 2 characters again.

The enhancement pass provided many more options to a PM with the availability of SLAs and other things from the archmage tree. The archmage tree + either shiradi or draconic gives the PM or DC caster other options to work with. If you rely solely on necromancy and negative energy you need to find a way to travel back to 2011 so you can live in the past.

I did my fair share of complaining about DCs prior to the enhancement pass along with many others. As far as I am concerned they addressed the issue better than I expected because it'[s much more fun to have an arsenal of different options to work with and figure out what to use where with SP efficiency.

Now instead of stealing their kill with a finger of death when the enemy is @ 5% you can do it with a MM that costs less SP. (just kidding about the last part whenever I fingered something at 5% it is usually because I had auto-target on and my original target was insta-killed by someone else while I was casting. I don't think people understand that happens sometimes)

As for a first lifer, just go wiz 14/fvs 4/monk 2 shiradi and save yourself alot of trouble worrying about DCs. The only problem is it is much less effective outside shiradi...

[ishr]

Im getting really frustrated right now. After a long time of TRing i piled up 28 lifes on my main, a wizard.
I took every PL that provided any sort of bonus for my PM build to be able to cast efficiently in EE content.
All that i need right now, to max out my dc (currently at 66) is a blue helmet and the nether orb, which would be effectively 2 dcs (carrying a +4 nec focus item right now).

EH is working easily with this dc, on EE on the other hand i cant do **** with it, discos, beeing saved (+4 focus, no feats though) webs get ripped appart and landing insta death spells on anything but casters (which is also saved regulary) is rather senseless, given the fact they need several neg lvls before they work. Kiting through a SOD may help, but then again they hit like a truck, piling up to 200-400 per hit, which leaves me with my 800 hp kind of vulnable.

My overall conclusion: dcs for EE need an adjustment, or the wizard (PM) is technicly dead and useless in there.
This is what i would call a flawed and bad design, as it forces me to pick Schiradi over Magister and leaves me a mm monkey.
Next to that, the elemental dmg of wizards (PM) arent that great, compared to a possible AM/Sorc. The insanly high hps of the mobs is therefore another grain of salt in the wound. Even the SLAs, which recieved a long needed boost get totally countered by a simple deathward spell, which seems to be undispellable, even with mordekins, leaving me with the simple option to waste a lot of sp on medicore dmg or to have a time out when facing dw rednamed.

The arcane Spellsurge is helping, but a) also not always, b) 20 secs can be a rather short time, given the ammount of mobs appearing, spreading appeart, casting times and cooldowns (not to forget the 3 min cooldown on spellsurge ).

I start wondering if the last 2 dcs will make the difference, but in general im disappointed, as i hoped that high work would result into high gain.

Then again, im not counting me as a casual player, and im wondering what will they do once they get the desire to try EE and try to find the items, instead of buying them for tons of A$. If i, as a lvl28 Completionist Drow PM with a nearly maxed out gear and maxed out ED (one of the mystical 8) cant get onto them, anything more casual than me will just be a stone on in the inventory, or an afk till q is finished.

I am not voting for an IWIN and all dies button here, but im concerned this will drive a lot of players away, either killing thier fun or thier ambition to play at all. A friend of mine, currently playing a midllvl PM alreraddy stated he will drop the idea to play a wizard, as he wouldnt be able to get even close to the stuff i have. I recognize EE isnt for evryone, and its meant to be challenging, but i think right now it is over the top and needs adjusment.

For my Setup: (~800hp/3.6k sp)
Drow: max int, max con +4 tomes to all, +5 tome for int, all lvlups into Int
Featlist: Max, Emp, Hight, Quick, Mental Toughness, Imp Mental Toughness, Completionist, PL Wiz, Necrofocus I,II,III, Spellpen, gretaer Spellpen, Epic Spellpen, Insightfull ref, /Ebonus: spellpower neg, efocus spellcraft
Pastlives: each 3 times exept 1 times only: Fgt, Mnk, Paly, Rng, Rog, Bard.
Twists: Endless faith, echoes Magister, 1lvl3 slot for adjusting to current q/1 int to even out if uneven
Current gear:
Master Illusionist gloves EE, Sage's Cuffs, Boots open for adjustmnent (erock, FOM, Propulsion)
Tablecloth T2, con10 dodge 10 belt, litany, conc opp sp googs, eblue robe, torc, minII hp helm, Abbot quiver, tod ring +6int exept1 int exept 2 int, Tod ring +6 str exept 1 con exept2 con
Weapons: En nether orb +4 enchant, scepter +4 necro
Int ring gonna be swapped for 50hp ring once i get blue helm +3 int, torc will move for conc opp hp necky, bracers prob gonna be edq
Current augments: 200 sp, 35hp, impr Mental toughness, + necro focus will be swapped for 2x greater int feat.
Using Yugo pots INT

Any advice, besides cookies and store potions and having a bard at swordpoint, how to make things work for me (and evenly important for people that cant pile up what i have)?
Dev answer appreciated

i personally don't have any problems with DC casting on EE. maybe it's a matter of expectations. when i drop DC-based spells i don't expect to land on every mob, though i do get a majority. i think this is what the devs were shooting for and i think they reached their goal.

as a side note, you aren't the first person to bring this up, this is an old issue that has been revisited by the devs and i can only assume that they have arrived at a steady state, that is a point at which EE is doable but not a cakewalk.

[AuraAten]

And that is why after dozens of lives on my two main characters - one sorc, one wizard I stopped.
NOTHING you do will make you as effective as a first life war forged shiradi in epic elite. Worse, nothing you do will make you of any use at all, no items, no past lives. Having multiple caster past lives is pointless, what good is +9 spell pen when the only spells you actually cast have "magic" and "missile" in their name.

No hearts, no xp pots, no boxes. Past lives are useless for casters, so might as well save money and more importantly time. I suppose that it also explains why I don't play this game much anymore.

Yep, after four years playing this game and really having a good time, I didnt anymore. My wizard isnt a completionist, but she is quite geared out. She also has three of each of the DC and Spell Pen PLF. Actually the entire reason I commenced this long and grinding journey with her was so that I could make a HMM or FoD land on EE. This was shouted by many and it all fell on deaf ears. I dont want to play a Shiradi, nor do I wish to play as a "buff bot". Its a sad, sad day to read that a DC of 66+ ISNT good enough! Just my two cents and yea O.P. I feel your pain.

[IronClan]

Decent, I think I'm 54 and it gets enough to be worth using. Again I'm not maxxed. My guildie has an 18/2 drow with a 66 necro and a 57 enchant and he's just awesome. I'm really wondering what game the "mah DCs no work!" people are playing. Do they want it to be the god-mode we have in Inspired Quarter?

Don't get me wrong . . . back when High Road and EGH came out I was leading the charge to make DC casting more viable. From what I've observed with this new setup if your DC caster isn't strong the problem exists between your keayboard and chair.

I agree, as usual on the forums "DC's in EE" actually means insta kill necro DC's in a handful of high fortitude save recently released quests (but not all).

Then everyone uses this as an excuse to call for nerfing the small number of ED's that are actually fun to use and effective in EE.

Because doing EE's in Magister or Angel or Faintsinger will be loads of fun once they make Shiradi, and Fury suck for everyone.

The only thing broken in EE (meaning the wide breadth of all EE content) is the disparity between ranged/spell perching in safe spots and melee's that have to take damage toe to toe, and self heal through it, or whip out a thrower and perch too, at which point they might as well respec into ranged.

Of course someone's going to link a video of a high performing perfectly geared Melee in a huge non stop rush of mobs with Blitz sustained doing 1/2 the damage over time of a Draconic and say that melee are just fine in EE.

Meh the forum version of this game is soooooo booooring and predictable compared to the actual version of the game.