Frustration Setting in, DCs and EE

[EllisDee37]

Wail has been nerfed into oblivion, and broken for so long that it's not even funny.

U19 fixed wail, or so player tests have showed. My own experience with wail is also that U19 fixed it.

Still only attacks 6 targets, 2 at a time, but it does appear to attack 6 targets each cast now.

Why, because a caster I make will magically be different than my guildie's?

Based on your posts in this thread, you're a self-professed frustrated melee who is annoyed with wizards for marginalizing your contribution. That bias undercuts the credibility of your testimony regarding wizard effectiveness.


Personally, I tend to believe teh_troll. If low/mid-60s necro DC can be effective, then sounds like reasonable game balance to me. Low-60s is attainable. (Hell, my gimpy 18/2 rogue splash with terrible gear is around 56 with plenty of low-hanging fruit still to increase that. My goal before reading this thread was simply to hit 60.)

[TBot1234]

Easy fix....increase sp cost of necro instakill spells by 50-100%. Lower saves on EE mobs in the range where a maxed out DC enchanter can cc and necro and instakill at about 75% rate.

Something like this sounds about right to me. Bumping success rate after debuffs to 80-85% could work.

[Enoach]

The problem is that the phrase "effective" is thrown around without any clear definition and one side might feel that 6 out of 10 landing is effective while others will insist that if it is not 9 out of 10 or 10 out of 10 that it is not effective.

I've been running my Level 25 Wizard through the new content, he does not have the newest gear (or high enough to use it) and working with a party the type of mobs I am seeing between 60% and 80% of my spells landing.

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As a note only a single Wizard Past Life to get the Active Feat currently can add to the DC's of Necro spells. So as far as insta-kill necro spells go a First Lifer at the most will be 1 DC behind someone with multiple lives.

In fact only Conjuration (Cleric) and Evocation (Sorcerer) are the only schools where the DC can be as much as 3 higher.

The only other Past Life that boosts DCs is the Bard and that is for Enchantment and requires taking the Active Feat.
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The desire not to use a lot of Debuffs is understandable, however, many of the best debuffs actually don't require that they successfully land. The benefit here is that the use of Scrolls for these types of debuffs can help reduce the SP expense. This technique does take longer to setup so may require a less "jump into the thick of things" approach. Including letting other players draw blood first.

I also understand the desire of people to run EE solo and I applaud those that can; but I don't really think Turbine should spend any more effort on making quests solo-friendly (or at least not until the population is such that the only way to run quests is solo)

[maddmatt70]

I do displacement as a norm.

What’s kinda funny is that I almost have to revert back to how I played when my main wizzy was a fleshy AM, and people told me I was gimping myself by going that route. Now in EE, it seems like fleshy PM or AM doesn’t matter too much as if I get surrounded, I’m dead no matter how much self-healing I have on tap.

Had I taken people’s recommendations from the outset, I wouldn’t be dropping AoEs and kiting aggroed mobs through them.

PM self-healing helps a little with incidental damage, but the stuff I learned as a “gimp” wizzy helps me even more.

(Of course, as a fleshy AM, I’d have a hard time getting up to 225% fortification with gear…)

LOl. oh your one of those silly 140%+ fort noobs. Seriously show me some screenies where it makes a difference at all. There is so much ignorance on these forums. Things do not crit like people think they do otherwise the 100% fort people would be dying every other second.

[TimethiefXVI]

Effectivity starts for me at an 85% sucess rate on the lowest save, aka if i theow a mass hold monster i want 8 to 9 out of 10 mobs beeing affected, if they have a low will save.
if i fod a caster , i want to be 85% sure he is going down, as his fort is the lowest save, archers should get a good grab from the web for they usually have low str.

If the mobs appear in packs of 10 i cant rely on a fod for each, at a reduced cost of about 50 that would be too much esp if i have to get debuffs in. For a time comparison, Fod has a cooldown of 8 secs. if i swap to other spells in between i can approx land 2 spells per round. If the mob is still alive after that, i pretty much failed and used about 200 sp for 1 enemy. with currently about 3.6k sp the ammount of mobs i can engage is limited, even more if i buff the party and keep em buffed (which i consider part of my job).

Circle of death has next to the neg lvl effect on a successfull fort save a reflex save, if the save is made no effect applies (for 30 secs cooldown)
Wail is fixed, effecting 6 mobs total and requires me to go into close combat due to the range, means im taking a hughe risk of getting hit. (1 min cooldown), the neglvl are nice thou, although they can apply 1 to 6 different or 3 to one single.
pwk has a 3 min timer, which is fine i think, esp as it is highly efficient. I must admit though im rarely using it as i hold it back as an emergency option (aka clr charging).

Given the actual rate of successfull spell i consider me lucky if i take out 2 out 8 and effect like 2 more with a neglvl , leaving 4 uneffected at all.
This is NOT what i call effective.

On the other hand i see the melees nearly rape the mobs tearing them appart and, land successfull cc like stuns. if i need about 10 to 12 secs to kill a mob, they kill 2 to 5 in the same time.

At this point it is also important to see that
a) my instakill options a quite limited, by cooldown and sp
b) EE parties mostly contain any sort of healer
c) Melees can keep swinging and landing fast high dmg untill the healers sp are out.
d) Melees have higher ac/prr/dr than casters have
e) even though pms have a good selfhealing it is, if in doubt limited to one spell, and harm needs to be in los of clr, making it harder to keep pms on the run up.

[TimethiefXVI]

I still would like to hear some dev respong in here

well, one can be dreaming ^^

[QuickSlick79]

So, besides EE you are able to literally blow away all of the competition. Epic Elite is such a small part of the overall play time of a character it shouldn't really be THAT big of a deal. I know Epic Elite may be the goal for plenty of peoples endgame, but if you could just walk all over it you'd have pretty much nothing to stand in your way. A great feeling, but total invincibility is an aspect of DDO and DnD that should NEVER be present.

You should NEVER have complete immunity to a challenge. And because of your skill, PL stacking, and gear, you are able to rip through 1-20 content with the greatest of ease and quickly stack up more benefits.

Not every character is the same. It's built this way on purpose. To have any kind of difference or semblance of "balance" there has to be a "variety". Splitting things up into different classes and creating ways for them to have a perfect synergy should be the ONLY way you can overcome the games last bit of toughest challenges.

Yes, it is impressive if you can Solo. Some people enjoying building for this joy. This should be something that is insanely hard to accomplish, and a smart build alone should not be the way to defeat it.

If DC's were the end all solution to literally everything in the game as you are asking, there would be no need for any other classes. I'm sorry you'r almighty DC's no longer grant you a cake walk at the toughest section of the game. Looks like some DPS, divine aid, and good ol metal in addition to what your DC's bring would make for a truly unstoppable party.

Now if you are gonna try and argue that in a group setting your DC's become pointless then I'm sorry to say that this is just a life view point keeping you from having fun on what is built to be a MASSIVELY MULTI-PLAYER experience.

There are lots of single player games out there that have the ultimate loot that will never change and make you an unstoppable killing machine, equipped with top tier abilities from your class that roll over the pitiful AI in pure power glory and any of their attempts at a defense against what you can do. Hell, most single player games don't even give NPC's saves in the first place, making any spell you wanna throw just the top all end all of strategy. This is more of a game for you. Why don't you go play Skyrim?

Meanwhile, the rest of us will enjoy what we come to this game for.

[TimethiefXVI]

So, besides EE you are able to literally blow away all of the competition. Epic Elite is such a small part of the overall play time of a character it shouldn't really be THAT big of a deal. I know Epic Elite may be the goal for plenty of peoples endgame, but if you could just walk all over it you'd have pretty much nothing to stand in your way. A great feeling, but total invincibility is an aspect of DDO and DnD that should NEVER be present.

You should NEVER have complete immunity to a challenge. And because of your skill, PL stacking, and gear, you are able to rip through 1-20 content with the greatest of ease and quickly stack up more benefits.

Not every character is the same. It's built this way on purpose. To have any kind of difference or semblance of "balance" there has to be a "variety". Splitting things up into different classes and creating ways for them to have a perfect synergy should be the ONLY way you can overcome the games last bit of toughest challenges.

Yes, it is impressive if you can Solo. Some people enjoying building for this joy. This should be something that is insanely hard to accomplish, and a smart build alone should not be the way to defeat it.

If DC's were the end all solution to literally everything in the game as you are asking, there would be no need for any other classes. I'm sorry you'r almighty DC's no longer grant you a cake walk at the toughest section of the game. Looks like some DPS, divine aid, and good ol metal in addition to what your DC's bring would make for a truly unstoppable party.

Now if you are gonna try and argue that in a group setting your DC's become pointless then I'm sorry to say that this is just a life view point keeping you from having fun on what is built to be a MASSIVELY MULTI-PLAYER experience.

There are lots of single player games out there that have the ultimate loot that will never change and make you an unstoppable killing machine, equipped with top tier abilities from your class that roll over the pitiful AI in pure power glory and any of their attempts at a defense against what you can do. Hell, most single player games don't even give NPC's saves in the first place, making any spell you wanna throw just the top all end all of strategy. This is more of a game for you. Why don't you go play Skyrim?

Meanwhile, the rest of us will enjoy what we come to this game for.

Neither do i ask to be able to solo EE content, nor do i enjoy soloing stuff.
EE is atm next to rading the ONLY viable option as for EH is not a challenge and i want the EE gear.
while i can solo eh, ee forces me to play shiradi to be efficient for the party, as the nerve venom actually offers more viable cc than my spells in magister.

[Thrudh]

Effectivity starts for me at an 85% sucess rate on the lowest save, aka if i theow a mass hold monster i want 8 to 9 out of 10 mobs beeing affected, if they have a low will save.
if i fod a caster , i want to be 85% sure he is going down, as his fort is the lowest save, archers should get a good grab from the web for they usually have low str.

Then you want God-mode where you're never in any danger, and you never lose.

Question: Do you use debuffs?

[Karavek]

As I have said before being a DC based caster of any school as a wizard is itself a one trick pony deserving of not one drop of sympathy. A REAL Wizard learns every spell in existence and does his best to be capable of using them all to effect when it is the right time to use them. Infact the biggest dif between 2nd and 3E+ is that the role of DPS caster in 2nd ed was mainly an evocation specialist who gave up wider and often the best defensive magics to have the extra spell slot, and ofcourse for the realms, the double specialist nature of the red wizard of thay kit to get even more. Im sure any fan of the old baldurs gate PC series recall how effective of a magic blaster Edwin was with some rings of wizardry to double his spells perday( including bonus specialists slots).

The Devs have to design EE content not for the common man( even though it should be as any content getting less then 5% of the player pop actively in it is a waste of dev time imo), but for the extremist. OP your not one of those even if you thought you where. EE is meant to be so painful even the best of the best will struggle. When a DC style of casting is not working, go through your spell book at an inn, and pick spells that DO NOT USE SAVES OR CAN BE STOPPED BY SR. Its really that easy. If your favored spells can be used in every quest and effectively, then that is the game flaw, not you finding things with great saves and SR nigh untouchable.

In PnP as a DM for many years, pretty much all serious enemy encounters I plan, the mobs have no weak saves, High SR, and a variety of special abilities and immunities to frustrate the players, I also use alot of dead magic and wild magic zones, liberal use of beholder mercs, and create world class assassin NPCs fully capable of murdering the best of the party in a blink of an eye to keep them on their toes and actually feeling under a real threat. Just SoP in a world where gawds walk and people can be raised from the dead.

[TimethiefXVI]

Then you want God-mode where you're never in any danger, and you never lose.

Question: Do you use debuffs?

yes, i do. various spells like ck, dispair, hypnotism, enervation, energydrain.

But most of the time i fond that when the mobs are "sufficiently debuffed" they are eaten by melee

[QuickSlick79]

Neither do i ask to be able to solo EE content, nor do i enjoy soloing stuff.
EE is atm next to rading the ONLY viable option as for EH is not a challenge and i want the EE gear.
while i can solo eh, ee forces me to play shiradi to be efficient for the party, as the nerve venom actually offers more viable cc than my spells in magister.

I'm sorry but this didn't really seem to add anything. You already mentioned you are being "forced" into a different kind of caster play but that is just not true. Nothing is forcing you or stopping you from obtaining EE gear. A plethora of DC casters are out there geared up tooth and nail.

If you don't enjoy playing solo, you'll have a party. If the party works well together, you are gonna win. If teammates use debuffs to lower saves for you, you'll roflstomp all over the NPC's. If a melee is there to stun a guy, make em helpless, trip em up, this only makes the target more appealing for you.

If you keep targeting enemies your friends are slaughtering, or you just cant seem to get in a killin blow, big deal, I can think of a variety of spells that could just in general buff up the fight towards your favor. A kill doesn't have to be the only sign of contribution.

If your team is not working together well, you wont make it to the end. That could be the fault of any member of the party, including your own choices of targets and timing. I sincerely doubt it is the fault of Turbine or its programmers you can't feel like you contribute. Again I'll say it is my recommendation it is your own personal view causing things to sour in your gaming experience.

If you problem is that the whole team does it all for you and you don't seem to be effecting anything, well you still get your gear at the end of the quest. So I'm confused as to why you claim gear is one of your only driving factors. I see plenty of people lined to the ears with gear they don't even need, so I highly doubt EE has been tweaked "over the top"

Your character has an area of specialty, one that for the most part defeats 90% of this games content. You HAVE to come up to SOME wall SOMETIME for a challenge to occur.

[Charononus]

yes, i do. various spells like ck, dispair, hypnotism, enervation, energydrain.

But most of the time i fond that when the mobs are "sufficiently debuffed" they are eaten by melee

What is your dc? The wizard I ran with the other night thru some of the new ee's was a first life with pre-gianthold gear since he didn't play it since wail got broken, and he was clicking enervation then fod and taking out every single shadarkai assassin I couldn't knockdown with earthquake. (yes they had my debuff already) This let our melee's take out the cc'ed mobs. On the huge fights he'd cast a few holds or disco balls and they worked too. Not 95% but depending on the mob between 60-80%. I really think the problem is your toon man, not the saves at this point, it's really not bad. You have to be ready for it, but it's not like it was in egh.

I think min you'd want to make sure you have is
18 base
7 level up
4 tome min
3 enhancement
10 gear
1 exceptional
3 insightful
2 lich
2 yugo
2 ship
2 capstone
2 improved shrouding

54 int min for +22 mod
5 spell school item
3 magister
3 feat
1 lich
1 necromantic focus

is a 54 dc which isn't great but if you really want to get it higher you can get a +5 tome, pick up some int from ed's, another int from litany, use the archmage school for necro, get a 11 int item, which means you can get up to the sixties easy enough. Add in a wiz past life and you're getting stronger and stronger. The highest difficulties shouldn't let you land your spells without doing your work first though which means getting all of this just to start with.

[TimethiefXVI]

What is your dc? The wizard I ran with the other night thru some of the new ee's was a first life with pre-gianthold gear since he didn't play it since wail got broken, and he was clicking enervation then fod and taking out every single shadarkai assassin I couldn't knockdown with earthquake. (yes they had my debuff already) This let our melee's take out the cc'ed mobs. On the huge fights he'd cast a few holds or disco balls and they worked too. Not 95% but depending on the mob between 60-80%. I really think the problem is your toon man, not the saves at this point, it's really not bad. You have to be ready for it, but it's not like it was in egh.

See, the mobs alreaddy were in cc and he didnt had to worry about beeing hit all the time.
pls check my toon in the OP and tell me what im missing

[Charononus]

See, the mobs alreaddy were in cc and he didnt had to worry about beeing hit all the time.
pls check my toon in the OP and tell me what im missing

I don't know which toon is your wizard, and I'm not running them thru yourddo anyways since it's still based on the old myddo api and is probably as accurate as carnival game airguns.

[TimethiefXVI]

I don't know which toon is your wizard, and I'm not running them thru yourddo anyways since it's still based on the old myddo api and is probably as accurate as carnival game airguns.

well, simply read my first post, the features are listed there

well, here it is again
For my Setup: (~800hp/3.6k sp)
Drow: max int, max con +4 tomes to all, +5 tome for int, all lvlups into Int
Featlist: Max, Emp, Hight, Quick, Mental Toughness, Imp Mental Toughness, Completionist, PL Wiz, Necrofocus I,II,III, Spellpen, gretaer Spellpen, Epic Spellpen, Insightfull ref, /Ebonus: spellpower neg, efocus spellcraft
Pastlives: each 3 times exept 1 times only: Fgt, Mnk, Paly, Rng, Rog, Bard.
Twists: Endless faith, echoes Magister, 1lvl3 slot for adjusting to current q/1 int to even out if uneven
Current gear:
Master Illusionist gloves EE, Sage's Cuffs, Boots open for adjustmnent (erock, FOM, Propulsion)
Tablecloth T2, con10 dodge 10 belt, litany, conc opp sp googs, eblue robe, torc, minII hp helm, Abbot quiver, tod ring +6int exept1 int exept 2 int, Tod ring +6 str exept 1 con exept2 con
Weapons: En nether orb +4 enchant, scepter +4 necro
Int ring gonna be swapped for 50hp ring once i get blue helm +3 int, torc will move for conc opp hp necky, bracers prob gonna be edq
Current augments: 200 sp, 35hp, impr Mental toughness, + necro focus will be swapped for 2x greater int feat.
Using Yugo pots INT

oh, at a 66 necro right now

[Cetus]

I think DC casting is immensely useful right now, Ive run with many casters recently, and Id hazard to say that its a bit too good.

Locked down blue bars everywhere, and I don't see palemasters having an issue instakilling at all.

I haven't gotten around to my caster yet, but I run with many endgame casters and they rock this stuff.

[Charononus]

well, simply read my first post, the features are listed there

well, here it is again
For my Setup: (~800hp/3.6k sp)
Drow: max int, max con +4 tomes to all, +5 tome for int, all lvlups into Int
Featlist: Max, Emp, Hight, Quick, Mental Toughness, Imp Mental Toughness, Completionist, PL Wiz, Necrofocus I,II,III, Spellpen, gretaer Spellpen, Epic Spellpen, Insightfull ref, /Ebonus: spellpower neg, efocus spellcraft
Pastlives: each 3 times exept 1 times only: Fgt, Mnk, Paly, Rng, Rog, Bard.
Twists: Endless faith, echoes Magister, 1lvl3 slot for adjusting to current q/1 int to even out if uneven
Current gear:
Master Illusionist gloves EE, Sage's Cuffs, Boots open for adjustmnent (erock, FOM, Propulsion)
Tablecloth T2, con10 dodge 10 belt, litany, conc opp sp googs, eblue robe, torc, minII hp helm, Abbot quiver, tod ring +6int exept1 int exept 2 int, Tod ring +6 str exept 1 con exept2 con
Weapons: En nether orb +4 enchant, scepter +4 necro
Int ring gonna be swapped for 50hp ring once i get blue helm +3 int, torc will move for conc opp hp necky, bracers prob gonna be edq
Current augments: 200 sp, 35hp, impr Mental toughness, + necro focus will be swapped for 2x greater int feat.
Using Yugo pots INT

oh, at a 66 necro right now

I don't know what to tell you then man, you've got the gear but your experience doesn't match mine at all. (Which is playing a dc druid with a dc pm nearby) Even my debuff having been added in shouldn't be making that kind of difference in and of it's self.

[TimethiefXVI]

I don't know what to tell you then man, you've got the gear but your experience doesn't match mine at all. (Which is playing a dc druid with a dc pm nearby) Even my debuff having been added in shouldn't be making that kind of difference in and of it's self.

and pls bear in mind, this is my oldes existing toon, created shortly after release of the game

[Ellihor]

and pls bear in mind, this is my oldes existing toon, created shortly after release of the game

I and other pms i know are having different experience than you. I am not sure if what you want is to have the semi god mode it was befoe motu or the like, but dcs are working nice in my opinion. Please post a video of you on the new stuff to show us what is hapening that shouldnt be and how a shiradi does better than dc based.