Frustration Setting in, DCs and EE

[eris2323]

Turbine doesn't have a clue what it wants to do with it's 'endgame' or it's raid system, and it really shows in the last couple of years.

Add to that fact the hatred at least one dev has towards pale masters... let's see now... how often have they be nerfed; they lost wail; poisons and disease started affecting them... even with no way to heal stat damage... so many complaints that they are useless in EE - everyone HAS to be a stupid shiradi. Deathward bugs that leave and come back and leave and come back... shall we continue the list?

No need, it's quite obvious:

Turbine. Hates. Pale Masters.

Reroll.

It's the only way to be sure.

Or possibly just play the TR game, and ignore the 'endgame'.

[kned225]

[QUOTE=Qaliya;5083679]Right now melees "doing their thing" seems to mostly involve beating down red names and trying to run ahead of the casters so they can maybe get a kill in before the red finger appears.

I agree. And a lot of it comes down to the grp you're in and whether they're playing together or just completing together

[C-Shell]

arent there several other spells that highly debuffs enemies saves? everyone is always only speaking about energy drains but i never see people using curses or other debuffs. you sure have enough time and spellpoints to include them in your casting routine. most casters hit a shrine with lots of sp left in the bank.

dont try to go for mobs with high fort saves to begin with. team play is still a core part of this game (i personally always wear at least one weapon that reduces the enemies saves). not every toon should be effective in the same way towards alls enemies. rogues cant sneak attack everything etc.

[Gempoult]

Was gonna ask people with "66 necro DC" to give me an exact breakdown but then did some testing myself and currently the spell focus II from the Tablecloth is bugged and stacks with other necro focus items you have (it doesn't stack with any other spell focus) so I guess when (if) that gets fixed will be 64 necro DC which is reasonable with yugo pot.

[My2Cents]

[I'm just resigned to the fact that none of my characters are going to be able to do any EE anytime soon, and finding raid groups is hard enough]

[I guess I lack twitching skills, sufficient time/motivation to obsessively inform myself about every possible detailed foe and each appropriate weapon and spell, etc. - clearly portions of DDO are designed to appeal to the most dedicated player, even if I had the time, that level of preparedness removes all the fun from me anyway]

So my advice, enjoy what you can, this is supposed to be fun, not frustration. If its frustrating, do something else.

[Durten2]

When you claim that your DCs are just fine please make sure you have run the new quests on EE. EH and below are a different story.

Yes, I agree with you that EE is supposed to be a challenge and not as easy as EH. However, the current nature of Necro is binary so you don't get challenged by amped up mob saves, you get broken.

IMHO, if you have 3x Past lives plus the top gear, Necro should work. First life toon or a couple past lives, yup, sorry EE Insta-death is out of reach for you it is Epic Elite afterall. However, for someone who has done all the past lives, EE should be doable in my opinion.

I too am looking for a reason to not play Shiradi. MM, meteor, etc spamming not so interesting to me.

Part of the problem is the fundamental nature of insta-death and how they were included in the game.

* Spell points vs uses per day allows spamming the spells.
* The save or die mechanic based on a static number makes the outcome binary.

Maybe they should add a die roll to the DC check formula so there is a wider range of outcomes vs must have an unreachable DC level to land the spell.

[nibel]

My guildie has an 18/2 drow with a 66 necro and a 57 enchant and he's just awesome.

You know, for me, the gap between your primary school and the rest is more problematic than bloated monster saves. This gap just means that the EE mobs don't have a weak save if it is not 15+ save difference.

Using those numbers as a benchmark, if a random mob have a 50 fortitude save and a 40 will save, both spells land about the same number of times. Thus, it is better to keep trying to land the instakill than the enchant CC just because instakill is more useful with the bloated HP EE mobs have.

IMO, the devs should adjust all those "+1 DC on specific school" stuff to also buff a little the off-schools. Magister spell mastery giving +1 to all other schools at tier 3, Focus +3 items or higher also add to other schools (so a +5 focus would be +5 primary and +3 universal), Epic Spell Focus working on all schools instead of only one, etc.

[Daemoneyes]

Assuming no changes to the mobs are made, maybe its time for a different approach. Necro-spec has been under the gun for a long time and i highly doubt EE was designed to be forgiving to pms. Maybe put that 66dc in enchantment?
I realize this isnt what you want for a pm but a contribution is a contribution. Just a thought

So if this is an option, why are there still melee in this thread complaining not being able to outkill a PM?
After all, if they are to gimp for it, then why not roll a shirady and contribute?
Just a thought :P

On a more serious note, every one should be able to contribute and thats all here got asked for.
Also if a melee cant outkill a PM i call him gimp, every 0815 melee in korthos gear can outkill them.
Okay slight exageration but still, you really dont need much to outkill a PM.
Which is humilating when you spent tons of time gathering equip&pl while a firstlife build with sub optimal gear outshines you in the one and only thing you SHOULD be able to do better. IOW killing trash.

[Coyopa]

arent there several other spells that highly debuffs enemies saves? everyone is always only speaking about energy drains but i never see people using curses or other debuffs. you sure have enough time and spellpoints to include them in your casting routine. most casters hit a shrine with lots of sp left in the bank.

dont try to go for mobs with high fort saves to begin with. team play is still a core part of this game (i personally always wear at least one weapon that reduces the enemies saves). not every toon should be effective in the same way towards alls enemies. rogues cant sneak attack everything etc.

My rogue can sneak attack most things, including undead 50% of the time and constructs 100% of the time (except for red names, obviously).

EDIT: Provided I do not have aggro and provided that my improved deception has not proc'd when I do have aggro.

[kned225]

So if this is an option, why are there still melee in this thread complaining not being able to outkill a PM?
After all, if they are to gimp for it, then why not roll a shirady and contribute?
Just a thought :P

On a more serious note, every one should be able to contribute and thats all here got asked for.
Also if a melee cant outkill a PM i call him gimp, every 0815 melee in korthos gear can outkill them.
Okay slight exageration but still, you really dont need much to outkill a PM.
Which is humilating when you spent tons of time gathering equip&pl while a firstlife build with sub optimal gear outshines you in the one and only thing you SHOULD be able to do better. IOW killing trash.

Contribute doesnt have to mean "outkill"

[tharveysinjin]

So your solution for the borked Shiradi ED is to enable another caster type the same overpowered ability to trivialise EE content and make other teammembers obsolete?

I did not read anywhere that someone was recommending that a class be provided with anything overpowering. What the OP is suggesting is that arcane casters who choose an epic destiny, other than Shiradi, have been trivialized by EE content.

[Ancient]

Is your dc caster more powerful than a Shiradi in EH and below content?

Is it fair for your dc caster to be more powerful than a Shiradi in EH and below and equal in EE content?

You really want to balance against "win-moar"? Both can do the content quickly. A tiny bit quicker isn't a big deal. I'm a fan of Shiradi, I don't want it nerfed. I would like to see DC casting be viable if you put as much effort into it as the OP did.

[Teh_Troll]

When you claim that your DCs are just fine please make sure you have run the new quests on EE. EH and below are a different story.

I did all the new EE quests within the first two days and the only one that gave me an issue was WGU the first time on EE because of the end-fight mechanics and my general cluelessness.

[SirValentine]

did some testing myself and currently the spell focus II from the Tablecloth is bugged and stacks with other necro focus items you have (it doesn't stack with any other spell focus)

You didn't test enough. "Spell Focus" (new name for old "Spell Focus Mastery) items, all of them, not just Tablecloth, stack just fine with school-specific DC boosts of any school, not just Necro. Considering the name change and description change, I'm assuming this change is WAI, unless a dev clearly states otherwise.

[Daemoneyes]

Contribute doesnt have to mean "outkill"

true but as it is now its nearly impossible to kill anything without debuffing it before, often with the need of double debuffing now which means you have often spent more time & sp on debuffing than a shirady on killing the mob group

and yes while it is contributing i can assure you its not fun to be a debuff/cc bot. (at least for me)
and its not the way most pm want to play, if it were they would play Archmage..


also i could say the same about fod'ing mobs in front of melees,
after all they blocked the mobs and that is enough contributing from them.
So why do they complain when i fod a mob in front of em? :>

[Gempoult]

You didn't test enough. "Spell Focus" (new name for old "Spell Focus Mastery) items, all of them, not just Tablecloth, stack just fine with school-specific DC boosts of any school, not just Necro. Considering the name change and description change, I'm assuming this change is WAI, unless a dev clearly states otherwise.

both are listed as "equipment bonus" so they shouldn't stack, and they definitely don't stack with my other school focus items, just tested again with my enchantment stick, sage boots and transmutation nether orb. only one stacking is the necro nether orb. even though both are described as "passive equipment bonus to dc". doesn't look wai to me.

[RedHost]

I disagree. The gains of TR'ing should be minor at best. You can't expect a new player or new toon to TR 10 times before becoming effective.

That said, I don't want to see the insta-kill fest that started with the removal of epic ward returning. Making DCs of non insta-kill spells work is perfectly fine with me, but please, no more of that insta-kill pale master nonsense that ruins teamplay.

Yes.... because Install-Kill Casters is so terrible. But Insta-Killing Monks with DCs entirely unreachable by Casters is great. -.-

[kned225]

and yes while it is contributing i can assure you its not fun to be a debuff/cc bot. (at least for me)
and its not the way most pm want to play, if it were they would play Archmage..

This is really the issue. The pm in its current form doesnt appeal to quite the same crowd as it did pre u14/pre nerfs

[Qaliya]

This is really the issue. The pm in its current form doesnt appeal to quite the same crowd as it did pre u14/pre nerfs

Yes, I'm sure they were quite happy pre-U14, given that they were ridiculously overpowered.

[Gempoult]

That's what everyone tells me on the forums, but I sure didn't experience that in-game.

And no, the guy was not drinking a ton of pots. Why would he need to, when every quest is now liberally sprinkled with rest shrines?

Adrenaline overpowered? Even with it active I can't one-shot a mob the way an arcane can, and I get only a handful of them. I'm sure a maxed-out Barb could one-shot yellows but still, only get a few, and they have significant downsides like lack of self-healing that arcanes do not.

Master's Blitz? Great fun if you can get one going. Except of course that there's no mobs to kill when the casters get them all first. And the second you step through a door or portal, it's gone. Not even remotely comparable.

I loved using Blitz but quickly discovered there were only a handful of quests with enough mobs and few enough doors/portals that it was viable. It was situational at best. Arcane spells are valuable nearly everywhere.

My experience running Storm Horns and epic raids with arcanes quite literally prompted me to TR out of my fighter weeks before I had initially planned. I was simply taking up a party slot that would have been better filled by another caster. It was incredibly boring and frustrating.

i have the feeling i might have contributed to that boredom and frustration, sorry, yes, my caster has 90% of the kills in eh and old ee content (like the chrono which i believe you are talking about), doesn't change the fact it is completely useless in new(er) ee